17hmr vs 17wsm

Bankrunner

Well-known member
When you go out after coyotes I'm pretty sure most people call it hunting. If your on a ranch and they are a problem for your livestock then it would also fall under predator control.
Many people only hunt them when their fur is prime and make good use of the pelts.
If you go out to maim or kill just because they are coyotes then some would not call you a hunter but a killer with no regard for the suffering of animals.
 

dthome

Well-known member
The problem with the term "ethical" is you can ask 100 people and get 100 different answers. I'm not saying you have to do what I do. I'm just saying what I would do. People let emotions get in the way of common sense.

Coyotes are varmints. That is just it. If you want to label them as big game animals I'm sure California will soon have special units where you have to draw a tag so most of you will be happy that these coyotes can be treated the same as any big game animal ethics wise.

I have seen what the predator population has done to the deer numbers in this state over the past 20 years. Lack of predator management because of these so called "ethics" is to blame. When trapping and poisoning was still happening deer numbers were incredible. The facts are out there and soon with the wolves now in this state our tag numbers will drop, our big game populations will drop, and soon the antis will have more ground to stand on to abolish hunting in this state.

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It's hard to know where to begin.

Starting with your supposition that all ethics are relative: let's just use your own personal ethics, as you have stated in this thread. That eliminates relativity. You said that you would shoot a coyote with a .22 at 150 yards, but not a deer. Your reasoning is that coyotes are vermin, instead of game animals. The conclusion is that you're ok if vermin suffer needlessly, but not ok if game animals suffer needlessly. To willingly cause ANY animal to suffer for weeks or months is unethical and disturbing.

Regarding your thoughts on predator populations, no one here is saying coyotes shouldn't be hunted. It's a logical fallacy for you to redirect the argument there. I've killed my fair share of coyotes and bears, and would do it again. But there's not a bone in my body that's ok with prolonged suffering. If I can make a clean kill, I take it. If I can't, I won't. Ethics is what will keep our sport alive the longest, however long that may be. Disregard for clean kills is just ammo for the antis.
 

Mr. Luckypants

Well-known member
I'm willing to bet many of you on here have used rat poison to kill rats and mice. So how long does it take for them to die? Is that ethical? Remember, "ANY" animals suffering for weeks is disturbing.
 

Beastmode

Well-known member
When you go out after coyotes I'm pretty sure most people call it hunting. If your on a ranch and they are a problem for your livestock then it would also fall under predator control.
Many people only hunt them when their fur is prime and make good use of the pelts.
If you go out to maim or kill just because they are coyotes then some would not call you a hunter but a killer with no regard for the suffering of animals.
Would the same be said for "hunting" ground squirrels or Prarie dogs? What does coyote meat taste like since you don't just shoot them?

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Bankrunner

Well-known member
I think poison is bad and I think a real trapper would not use it, he would relish the challenge of outsmarting his prey and feel good about it.
 

nichanson

Active member
When you go out after coyotes I'm pretty sure most people call it hunting. If your on a ranch and they are a problem for your livestock then it would also fall under predator control.
Many people only hunt them when their fur is prime and make good use of the pelts.
If you go out to maim or kill just because they are coyotes then some would not call you a hunter but a killer with no regard for the suffering of animals.
You are entitled to your opinion. But heres the way I look at it... They are vermin, thats why they have no limit and no season even in California. I try to exclusively hunt them in the area that I deer, quail, and chukar hunt so every dog I kill helps that population, but I shoot them wherever. Coyotes are cold hard killers don't let them fool you. Have I had them skinned? Yea. Have I made euro mounts out of a skull with good looking teeth? Yea. Do I usually let them lay where I kill them instead? You bet. I do not consider myself a "killer with no regard for suffering of animals" you sound like an anti. I am the first person who respects animals. I hunt upland with no dog and I will search for 15 minutes for a dead quail in a thicket.. and if i can't find it i move on and then come back to it at the end of the hike and look for it again. lll hike a mile out of the way just to recover a chukar that fell down a cliffside. But just because you kill something just to kill it doesn't make you not a hunter.. thats absolutely ridiculous. You ever see the amount of deer and upland birds in other states? Some of it is habitat but you can bet your ass that a lot of it is because hunters in those classic western states kill the shit out of coyotes just to kill them. Ever heard of the quotes "i don't care what I'm hunting.. if i see a coyote then I'm coyote hunting" or "whats the best coyote gun? Whatever gun is in my hands."
 

Bankrunner

Well-known member
You are entitled to your opinion. But heres the way I look at it... They are vermin, thats why they have no limit and no season even in California. I try to exclusively hunt them in the area that I deer, quail, and chukar hunt so every dog I kill helps that population, but I shoot them wherever. Coyotes are cold hard killers don't let them fool you. Have I had them skinned? Yea. Have I made euro mounts out of a skull with good looking teeth? Yea. Do I usually let them lay where I kill them instead? You bet. I do not consider myself a "killer with no regard for suffering of animals" you sound like an anti. I am the first person who respects animals. I hunt upland with no dog and I will search for 15 minutes for a dead quail in a thicket.. and if i can't find it i move on and then come back to it at the end of the hike and look for it again. lll hike a mile out of the way just to recover a chukar that fell down a cliffside. But just because you kill something just to kill it doesn't make you not a hunter.. thats absolutely ridiculous. You ever see the amount of deer and upland birds in other states? Some of it is habitat but you can bet your ass that a lot of it is because hunters in those classic western states kill the shit out of coyotes just to kill them. Ever heard of the quotes "i don't care what I'm hunting.. if i see a coyote then I'm coyote hunting" or "whats the best coyote gun? Whatever gun is in my hands."
There is iron in your words!
Many people think coyotes and other animals are vermin. I have thought that some animals are vermin as well and have gone out of my way to kill them. I once shot a yote with number two steel at about 35 yards because it was following my dog and did not shy away when it saw me. It was not a kill shot.
Thing is.....I think that's different from hunting. I view hunting mainly as a harvest but also as a way to keep in touch with nature and do it with appreciation and respect for the animal I am hunting.
When I have gone out shooting ground squirrels I didn't have the same feeling I was just out to kill them, if I went out to shoot coyotes and let them lay without using the fur i would feel the same way.
And.....Some people would not call me a hunter but a killer!
In regards to maiming. Even if you are going out to kill coyotes or squirrels (not defending property or livestock)
I still think you owe it to the animal to only take what you think are kill shots.
 
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