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Alright; time to start shoving and arguing.....

BelchFire

I speak fluent Vise-Grip
Admin
Well, not literally. I ate supper last night with an accomplished, "shooter, reloader, marksman". And I mean that in the good way, not sarcastic at all. He's a very good marksman, and competes all the time. Here's why I say that.

I mentioned casting and his comment was "Well, the thing with casting is that you have to keep the speed down around 2100 or else you'll eat your barrel up" I clarified the "eat your barrel up" comment as one of leading and not damage, and he agreed on that. We never spoke of caliber, so the relative speed isn't a given for any particular gun, he just threw that out as a general comment. He did mention that most people only cast for "larger calibers" because of the speed issue; "they only go so fast anyway, so they're not limited much.."

I remember AMMOe saying that it's not speed, but rather pressure that produces such bad levels of leading so I mentioned this. He grimaced and shook his head "That's just not the way it works."

So now, I'm stuck between two highly respected people with phenominal amounts of practical credit to back up their point, and they don't agree. What's the bottom line? Could he be under the mis-impression that it's speed because it's just not practical to get that fast within an acceptable pressure limit?

 

AMMOe

Well-known member
Belch: I have many friends that shoot and have been shooting for years but they have never seriously shot cast bullets. They too shake their heads and claim that pressure isn't the bugger-boo of cast bullet leading and that it's simply velocity.

I'm not going to tell you your buddy is mistaken but I'd sure like to hear the science behind his arguement. Not related experiences, but the actual science. (I have heard a thousand reports of cast bullet failures in my day!)

As to your question. Of course you can get jacketed bullet velocities with low pressures. A quick example: Lil Gun powder in the 22 Hornet. You can get a 40 grain jacketed bullet to go 2800 ft./sec at 24K pressure. That is well within the pressure limits for pure linotype. (31K) Now imagine this: You take that same bullet and fire it over 9.7 grains of AA 5744. You only get that magical 2200 ft/sec but you generate a whopping 43K of pressure. That is well over the yield strength of linotype and you've just soldered your bore shut! Why is that, I wonder?

It's because pressure is everything.

This is a boring read, but I submit it for your perusal.~AMMOe

http://www.jesseshunting.com/articles/guns/category16/9.html
 

AMMOe

Well-known member
...And if you need another source, check out the Second Edition of "Modern Reloading" by Richard Lee. In chapter 10 he talks about pressure and then goes on to discuss a "new" idea about the relationship between pressure, velocity, and cast bullets. The author independently came to the same conclusion that members of the Cast Bullet Association came to decades ago -that pressure has to be mated with bullet strength regardless of velocity. It's a good read. ~AMMOe

(PS: Can you tell I like cast bullet shooting??)
 

BelchFire

I speak fluent Vise-Grip
Admin
Andy,

That's exactly what I expected (and hoped) you would say. I admire adn respect him, but I really didn't hear any "evidence" in his argument beyond, "Nope, that's not the way it works". Now that's not to say he doesn't know the facts, but he didn't offer anything beyond a statement, and NO proof.

I tend to believe you as you've done so much testing. Give me hard and fast evidence any day over "that's just the way it is".

Now to a serious question; I've made up my mind to find the time to persue the .338-06 in cast. "Just because I can." How do you go about determining the pressure of any given load without a test chamber?
 

AMMOe

Well-known member
Belch: You can't really measure it. ( Well, you can... I have a "Pressure Trace" unit that will measure chamber pressure but I seldom use it. The sensors are fragile and cost $60 ea!) But there is alot of published data.

I have written this before, and I will repeat it. There is a huge amount of information in the book "Modern Reloading, 2nd Edition" by Richard Lee. I recommend it highly. Within the text there is an interesting piece about starting with a known chamber pressure/velocity and then calculating the increase (or inversely, the decrease) in pressure and velocity by a 1% addition/reduction in powder charges. It is seriously worth the read and darned useful for calculating approximate chamber pressures for a given powder and bullet. I just took a look at it and found that most of the loads listed for 338-06 also list the chamber pressures. Lee worked in conjunction with Hornady on much of this book including the chamber pressure stats. They are reliable. They even list a 200 grain cast bullet section. The cast bullet velocities, btw, are listed at 2400 - 2500 ft/sec with chamber pressures at around 36 -40K. These pressures are feasible with heat treated bullets, so... so much for 2100 ft/sec figure! Almost all starting loads for the various weights of jacketed bullets would be within the pressure limits of hard or heat treated bullets.

There are some things that you'll need to know ahead reloading of time.

NO copperfouling. Under a bore scope copper fouling looks like saw teeth sprouting from the rifling. It will cause leading.

Make sure your bullet fits your rifle both in diameter and length. Keep the gascheck out of the powder supply. (not below the neck!)

Use a gas checked bullet.

Heat treat for uniformity.

Heat treating is easy and if you e-mail me I'll run you through it. (It has nothing to do with dropping bullets from a mold into a bucket of water.) You will have fun with that round in lead. It's a perfect cast bullet cartridge, I think. I'll be happy to help you along with it. ~AMMOe
 

BelchFire

I speak fluent Vise-Grip
Admin
I've got that on the agenda for warmer weather in the spring and summer. In the mean time, I may have to order another mold. I have a 220 gr, but my magazine is kind of short; I'm using an unmodified M98 LR. For that reason, I can't load to the riflings. And without checking, I'm pretty sure I'll have the gas check below the neck. Of course, I'll make that measurement before I say it to be fact.

I'll start another thread in the spring.

Thanks!!
 

BelchFire

I speak fluent Vise-Grip
Admin
Andy, Lee only makes a 220 Gr (at present, anyway), so it's curious to me that they'd mention a 200 gr. IN searching for another, I found THIS GUY. Sounds promising; ever heard of him?
 

AMMOe

Well-known member
Belch: Modern Reloading mentions Lee equipment but isn't necessarily written around it , data wise. The Loading Data is a compilation from various makers of powder. Obviously, they picked up some 200 grain data someplace. In the end it doesn't matter because all the other data will be useful to a greater degree. You'll understand better when you see the book.

Never heard of the mold company but that's not surprising. They are popping up all the time with the increased availability of CNC machinery.

Is your rifle built on a standard (military) 98? There are a few options that will lengthen the magazine with little fuss. I used to do it all the time by reworking the front edge of the magazine and the feed ramp. Now there are "30-06 Length" magazines available. More work than ordering a mold, but could be cheaper in the end! There are also 3-degree taper dies available for lightly sizing the nose of a bullet so that it can be seated out farther when magazine lengths are not an issue. If you want to measure the OAL of a loaded round with the bullet where you want it I'll see if I have a magazine of that length laying around. (I have a LOT of stuff laying around!)

All rules are flexible. I once had a 1903 Springfield target rifle that shot like gang busters with the gascheck 5/16 into the powder supply. Even with faster burning powders. If you sat that bullet onto a charge of slow buring powder you might find it shoots quite well.

Next Spring? Now buddy... I hate to bring this up but... didn't you tell me that last year?? Or am I thinking of another 338-06er??
~AMMOe
 

BelchFire

I speak fluent Vise-Grip
Admin
Ahem, cough, cough. Um, er uh. Andy, I've - cough cough - got kids. They don't raise themselves, you know. (cough)

I'd start now, but the rut should be kicking in any day now. I watched 5 feed in rye tonight until T-10, and then two more stepped out. Never got a good look at the last two, but the first 5 were two nubbing bucks, and one doe with a yearling and a fawn still sporting 20-30 spots. I've never seen a spotted one this late.
 

AMMOe

Well-known member
I hear you on the kids. I was lucky enough to be working as a full time gunsmith while my kids were in those "formative" years so I had to shoot while raising the sprouts. Never had to divide my free time between the kids and hobbies! Before next Spring get me a measurement of your cartridge OAL with that bullet you have. I may have a magazine around.

That is a late fawn indeed. I'm out to shoot my deer tomorrow. I've been watching a herd of muleys all summer and now is the time to ambush them while they no longer seem to mind my presence. If I shoot one with my Hornet I can continue shooting prairiedogs after I get it gutted and cooling. I will probably use my 1959 Sharps Business Rifle or my 1888 Comission Mauser with cast bullets ... more fun that way. Here we can have two tags for a minimal fee so I may use both! ~AMMOe
 

jchrist1

Active member
BelchFire! Pardon me for saying...I have to lean more toward AMMOes perspective. Many times the old ways are good! But things do seem to get better over time. I'ts like trying to tell someone GOD exists. I'ts when one is to the point where he has to search or experiment that he discovers that there is a great big view ,outside the box.Change takes place ! As in AMMOe's case . I'm inspired with AMMOe's info.!I get a kick out of listening to you men! NICE TO KNOW YOU!! KEEP LOBBIN' LEAD! Verse for the day:Clean your house! If your not using something, give it to someone who will get good use out of it. It does no one any good just sitting there. BE BLESSED!!
 

jchrist1

Active member
BelchFire!The kids really can slow "MYSELF" down! But this too will pass.I've stressed to my son's,DANIEL,22 AND JOSH 20,for some time now, TO LEARN FROM GUYS LIKE YOU AND ME.How importent their freedom is.WIFE AND KIDS SEEM TO CANCEL OUT TOYS (BEAUTIFUL GUNS),AND RUNNING FREE!Just last week JOSH cast 200 bullets for his 303. DAN cast 100 for his 76254R.YOU WANT TO RUIN YOUR SONS FOR THE GIRLS? Take them fishin,huntin,shootin, loadin and campin!The girls will still catch them ,but maybe not before its too late .At least they might carry on the tradition and teach fun and freedom.HAVE A GREAT DAY! ALL OF YOU MEN!GOD BLESS!
 


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