April Fools... Nope TSA

rcrosby

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April Fools

Initial reports made it sound as though April 1 was the day the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) has so eagerly awaited: airport screeners caught a real, live, honest-to-goodness terrorist! At Orlando International! With "materials… that could have been used for an explosive device" in his bag! Those "materials" weren’t the TSA’s usual trophies, either, of excess baby food or veterans’ commemorative lighters. No, here were "two galvanized pipes, end caps, two small containers carrying BBs, batteries, two containers with an unknown liquid, and bomb making literature." Finally, vindication! The $40 billion the TSA has sucked from taxpayers’ pockets since 2001 as well as seven years of warrantless searches and frustrated passengers were suddenly justified. Even better, screeners detected the bomber thanks to one of the TSA’s most anti-Constitutional and controversial programs: Behavior Detection, a.k.a., SPOT [Screening Passengers by Observation Techniques]. Now SPOT, too, was validated!

Alas, later reports chipped away at the victory. Turns out "terrorist" Kevin Brown had packed the "materials" in his checked bag, not his carry-on. Air Jamaica, Kevin’s carrier, hastened to assure customers that "the items could not have caused an explosion and the aircraft and its passengers were never at risk." Talk about taking the wind out of the TSA’s sails. Further deflating those jibs was Kevin himself. He "first told authorities he wanted to detonate the materials on a tree stump in Jamaica..." That’s harmless enough, so naturally the story changed: Kevin "later said he was going to show friends in his home country how to build explosives..." How many alternative interrogation techniques did the new and improved confession require?
 

scrosby

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Its for your safety....they are here to protect us. What a crock that is. My favorite bumper stick says... **** you you gov't liars....Im not scared of terrorism at all!!!
 

Bullfrog 31581

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Do you think we shouldn't screen passengers on airplanes? What was unreasonable about this? He was carrying materials to make explosives and had the intention to make explosives. That the explosives were for a legitimate purpose could only be determined through further investigation. Sounds reasonable to me.

As for the contention that the TSA doesn't catch terrorists, I submit that they have caught many, many terrorists and they just don't make it public.
 

rcrosby

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullfrog 31581 @ Apr 9 2008, 03:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
As for the contention that the TSA doesn't catch terrorists, I submit that they have caught many, many terrorists and they just don't make it public.[/b]
Come on. Seriously? So they blow this one up with press meetings and huge publicity but they are keeping others quiet? How do you spose they arrest somebody and keep them locked up without it leaking? They don't do the same with the prisoners in GTMO.

I have no problem screening airline passengers as long as it is the airlines protecting their self interest and not some federal goon that couldn't hold a job at McDonalds making McFlurries. I am a huge hockey fan and the Anaheim Ducks have very tight security including screening each person to enter the Honda Center. This is private security and I have zero problems with whatever they want to do. If it was too much I wouldn't go to a hockey game.

I don't fear terrorist, I do fear governments. Governments have killed more people in the last hundred years than any terrorist could dream of doing. As my friend Trevor Denman would say, "They could run all day and they won't catch this one". The government is way out front when it comes to killing.
 

Bullfrog 31581

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Come on. Seriously? So they blow this one up with press meetings and huge publicity but they are keeping others quiet? How do you spose they arrest somebody and keep them locked up without it leaking? They don't do the same with the prisoners in GTMO.[/b]
Oh yes. Or at least Homeland Security keeps things on the quiet. I presume TSA is under Homeland Security's umbrella, I might be wrong.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
I have no problem screening airline passengers as long as it is the airlines protecting their self interest and not some federal goon that couldn't hold a job at McDonalds making McFlurries. I am a huge hockey fan and the Anaheim Ducks have very tight security including screening each person to enter the Honda Center. This is private security and I have zero problems with whatever they want to do. If it was too much I wouldn't go to a hockey game.

I don't fear terrorist, I do fear governments. Governments have killed more people in the last hundred years than any terrorist could dream of doing. As my friend Trevor Denman would say, "They could run all day and they won't catch this one". The government is way out front when it comes to killing.[/b]
That's just one of those areas where we have two different world views concerning and we have to agree to disagree. I believe that government has no more basic function than to keep citizens safe from international threats (foreign governments/militaries and terrorists) and from internal threats (internal threats meaning criminals). That is the primary role of government. Everything else government does is of secondary importance at best.

Although there are some good private security companies out there, I generally trust the government to run things at a national level more so than private companies. For one, the government is privy to intel that private entites wouldn't be. Also, I'd rather have the government detain and interrogate individuals than security companies. I private company would be able to get away with a lot more than the Federal government, and the restrictions of the Constitution don't apply to private entities like they do Federal and State governments. Although you could argue that those protections are not fully being followed now (which I generally disagree with), how much harder would it be to hold a private security corporation accountable for its actions?
 

rcrosby

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullfrog 31581 @ Apr 9 2008, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Oh yes. Or at least Homeland Security keeps things on the quiet. I presume TSA is under Homeland Security's umbrella, I might be wrong.[/b]
So all the press briefings TSA has had exaulting the capture of Bin this or Mohammed that, and has resulted in absolutely nothing... You are "submitting" all the other cases we just don't know about? Judge Napliano in a nation of sheep documents case after case where TSA and Motherland Security have gone to press with great stories of captured terrorist that have resulted in zero.... ZERO.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
That's just one of those areas where we have two different world views concerning and we have to agree to disagree. I believe that government has no more basic function than to keep citizens safe from international threats (foreign governments/militaries and terrorists) and from internal threats (internal threats meaning criminals). That is the primary role of government. Everything else government does is of secondary importance at best.[/b]
To keep them safe? That is the function of government? That is a proper role of a sheep herder not a government. The proper role of government is to protect the natural rights of men. The military is not sworn in to protect us nor is the President sworn into protect us and keep us safe and cozy so we can enjoy American Idol. They are sworn in to protect and defend the Constitution. The same Constitution that protects citizens from unreasonable search and seizure, the same one that protects freedom of speech (see FBI sealed warrants) and limits federal government intrustion into our lives.

Our founder didn't warn of terrorist and foriegn enemies. They primarily warned us about intrustions and growth of this very government. Why? Because they understood history and the history of the oppresion of men by their government. We would do well to follow the same warning.s
 

upperEA

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In the infancy of this coutry there were many foreign threats, but I believe our forefathers knew our very own government was far more of a threat to the people than any foreginer wishing us harm.

We the lawmakers, by the lawmakers, and for the lawmakers.
 

masonjarlid

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If anyone thinks that the goverment tells us all, they are just fooling themselves.

14 years in the military and 10 years as a LEO I can tell you from first hand knowledge that the goverment does not tell all in both cases.

I know first hand and for fact they do not tell us everything about terrorists in our country. They never will.
 

rcrosby

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (masonjarlid @ Apr 9 2008, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I know first hand and for fact they do not tell us everything about terrorists in our country. They never will.[/b]
So much for, for the people by the people. Everything is a secret to protect the government from the people.
 

masonjarlid

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rcrosby @ Apr 9 2008, 09:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (masonjarlid @ Apr 9 2008, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know first hand and for fact they do not tell us everything about terrorists in our country. They never will.[/b]
So much for, for the people by the people. Everything is a secret to protect the government from the people.
[/b][/quote]


I am not a conspiracy theory person, but have seen enough to know that all is not put on the table before us. It's not like it's top secret stuff, or something that if the public found out would cause the goverment to crumble, but it's stuff that for some reason is not released to the public. Knowing that I can only imagine what else there must be that is kept from us that would cause some serious fall-out. JMO
 

Bullfrog 31581

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
To keep them safe? That is the function of government? That is a proper role of a sheep herder not a government. The proper role of government is to protect the natural rights of men. The military is not sworn in to protect us nor is the President sworn into protect us and keep us safe and cozy so we can enjoy American Idol. They are sworn in to protect and defend the Constitution. The same Constitution that protects citizens from unreasonable search and seizure, the same one that protects freedom of speech (see FBI sealed warrants) and limits federal government intrustion into our lives.[/b]
Again we just have two totally different world views in this area.

Government is absolutely suppose to keep us safe. Government should protect our rights. But its not the only function of government. If the purpose of government is to only protect rights, then why have a government to begin with if the government is the primary threat to those rights? Why did the founders create a government if the government was our biggest threat? Because common sense says we must have government. The Founders knew we needed order and protection in our society, and only government can bring that. It will not happen on its on.

Governments can be a threat because governments are made up of humans, and humans are their core selfish and evil. If you eliminate governments, you haven't eliminated the problem that makes governments corruptible. People are the problem, and people will exist with our without a government, and people will still do their terrible things whether they do it in or outside of government.
 

Bullfrog 31581

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
I am not a conspiracy theory person, but have seen enough to know that all is not put on the table before us. It's not like it's top secret stuff, or something that if the public found out would cause the goverment to crumble, but it's stuff that for some reason is not released to the public. Knowing that I can only imagine what else there must be that is kept from us that would cause some serious fall-out. JMO[/b]
I agree.
 

rcrosby

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullfrog 31581 @ Apr 10 2008, 06:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Why did the founders create a government if the government was our biggest threat? Because common sense says we must have government.[/b]
That is why Bullfrog they created a limited government that's scope was laid out in the Constitution and limited from growth in the 10th Amendment. Not a facist, police state but a limited federal government.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
The Founders knew we needed order and protection in our society, and only government can bring that. It will not happen on its on.[/b]
Nor is order and protection happening under a government.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Governments can be a threat because governments are made up of humans, and humans are their core selfish and evil. If you eliminate governments, you haven't eliminated the problem that makes governments corruptible. People are the problem, and people will exist with our without a government, and people will still do their terrible things whether they do it in or outside of government.[/b]
Wow Bullfrog. Let me just say I am very glad we have a different world view. I believe man is created in the image of an almighty God. I understand there is sin in the world but you think God created man in his own image and that image is selfish and evil at the core? How do you feel about God? You think that the people who donated hundreds of millions to the tsunami and Katrina funds are selfish and evil? You think the people who go to work each day and have 1/2 of their treasure stolen and never question that; is selfish? I disagree Bullfrog. I think people are good, I think people are honest. I think evil people are the exception. The problem is not people. The problem is power. Any man who wishes to have power and control over another man life is evil. That was why the founders placed such a restriction of government power in the Constitution.

God with that kind of world view no wonder you bah for safety at the expense of liberty.
 

Atwater

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I know that, last time I flew with a firearm, I made certain my gun case had locks on both ends making access to my gun impossible without removing the locks. When my gun arrived at Fresno one of the locks was missing, making access to the gun very easy. I boarded with a secured weapon in the belly, arrived with an unsecured weapon. TSA.

In Minneapolis I went to the carousel to get my checked luggage...my gun was sitting off to the side, unattended. There was supposed to be personell there to check my ID...nobody around, just a gun leaning against a wall. TSA.

Going through security at one airport, a security person asked me what was in my pocket, which was bulging. I said "money". She said, "Ok, come on through", without having me empty the pocket. TSA.
 

rcrosby

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Atwater-

I think they followed the same structure as Caltrans. 52 supervisors watching, 3 guys working and 14 on their break. Maybe I am wrong, maybe the 14 on their break were really thought police and were trying to read the microexpressions of drivers passing by to tell which one may commit a crime.
 

Atwater

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
humans are their core selfish and evil.[/b]
Hmmmm...If ALL humans are selfish and evil [at] their core, and you are human, then you are selfish and evil...correct? Law students...
 

Bullfrog 31581

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Wow Bullfrog. Let me just say I am very glad we have a different world view. I believe man is created in the image of an almighty God. I understand there is sin in the world but you think God created man in his own image and that image is selfish and evil at the core? How do you feel about God? You think that the people who donated hundreds of millions to the tsunami and Katrina funds are selfish and evil? You think the people who go to work each day and have 1/2 of their treasure stolen and never question that; is selfish? I disagree Bullfrog. I think people are good, I think people are honest. I think evil people are the exception. The problem is not people. The problem is power. Any man who wishes to have power and control over another man life is evil. That was why the founders placed such a restriction of government power in the Constitution.

God with that kind of world view no wonder you bah for safety at the expense of liberty[/b]
The Bible says all humans are selfish and evil. The best of what we have to offer is filthy rags as far as God is concerned. That's true of all of us. We are created with God's image, but sin warped us so much that our sin condemns us to hell and separation from God. That applies to all of us. Even people like Mother Teresa or *fill in the blank* holy person. Despite all the good they do, their (and our) sinful nature is such that if we die without a covering for our sins, they/we go to hell. Only Christ's blood covers our sins. Its also only through Christ that we can recieve a new nature that isn't corrupt at its core.

Sure people do good things all the time. But that doesn't change our nature that is sinful at the core. The Bible also teaches that governments are instituted by God. That doesn't mean that they are infallible or that they act on divine right. But the general concept of government is God made:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Romans 13 1-7: 1. Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.[/b]
 

Bullfrog 31581

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Hmmmm...If ALL humans are selfish and evil [at] their core, and you are human, then you are selfish and evil...correct? Law students...[/b]
Yes, I am. By human standards I may have my virtues, but by God's standards I am nothing but evil in my original nature. And its God's standards that count.
 

rcrosby

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Romans 13 1-7: 1. Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.[/b]


Wow what a great quote Bullfrog...

If it were left to you and your reasoning we would still be paying tea tax to the king. Hitler would be the rightful ruler of the world since his "authority has been established by God". What about Sadam? How was his authority established? By God? Then what of Jorge taking him out of power? Is he bringing judgement on himself? Any quotes about preemptive war?

You think the IRS is God's servant? What about Nancy Pelosi? Bill Clinton? Jimmy Carter?



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong.[/b]
What did they do wrong Bullfrog? It was the same thinking as yourself that they marched into prison camps.
 

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Bullfrog 31581

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Romans 13 1-7: 1. Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Wow what a great quote Bullfrog...[/b]
That is God's reasoning. That's straight from the Bible. You aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with the Bible. What is your interpretation of these verses?

Edited to add: I'm referring to the quote in Romans about being God's reasoning, not your bit about Hitler. God overthrew Hitler, Saddam, ect. They abused their authority and they lost their lives for it. And what was God's instrument in overthrowhing them? It was other governments.
 

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