Better Shooting

Where's Bruce?

Well-known member
What is the best way to improve your marksmanship when mere practice is no longer cutting it? I have reviewed a number of shooting workshops that focus on positions, learning how to shoot between heartbeats, etc but they are so damn expensive...especially the week long courses. Is this the only alternative? I know our Marines are taught to be proficient to 600 yards which right now I can only dream about. I can't do that with a Lead Sled at the range on a calm day much less in the field. But I want to improve my skill set considerably so what's the best route? Who and where would you go to for such an education?
 

cjack

Well-known member
I'm sure you know this but the Angeles Range targets go to 400yds. Great range though! Good luck Bruce.
 

DirtyDave

Banned
Steel targets at 600 yards! But you can't go beyond 300 for paper targets which I find odd.
They dont want you holding up the whole range on a cease-fire while you walk out that far to check/change your targets. On the weekends they limit you to 200yds. I always wear my running shoes when I go to Angeles so i can jog out and change my targets without holing everyone up.

Forget about the shooting bench! Shooting bench is for getting the ZERO set on your rifle. After that, you should practice every possible position you can imagine you might actually have to shoot from while hunting. Standing, Kneeling, Prone, Sitting, with or without shooting sticks, etc. Shoot a lot of rounds and shoot often.

Then you can get into shooting running game hahaha. Best practice for that is shooting a shotgun a lot.
I just got back from SD where I shot 3 deer, 2 were Does on the run. 1 was about 100yds and 1 was about 60yds. A lower recoil rifle is better for this, so you can watch what happens through the scope. Its pretty sweet watching them go Ass-over-tea-kettle on the run. I was shooting a 6mm remington.
 

Sniper Chuck

Well-known member
Bruce,

What kind of groups are you getting at 100 yards from the bench? Are you having the same sized groups from different rifles? If it's one rifle, try shooting another rifle that shoots tight groups for someone else. If the other rifle shoots large groups for you, it's you. If you can duplicate small groups with the "other" rifle, yours needs work. There are so many variables with rifle shooting. Is your rifle bedded and floated? When squeezing the trigger, does the rifle "suprise" you when it fires? When it fires where are the crosshairs in the scope located on the target? I could go on, but don't type well enough. Shoot me an email or PM, I'll try to help out.

Chuck
 

Where's Bruce?

Well-known member
Bruce,

What kind of groups are you getting at 100 yards from the bench? Are you having the same sized groups from different rifles? If it's one rifle, try shooting another rifle that shoots tight groups for someone else. If the other rifle shoots large groups for you, it's you. If you can duplicate small groups with the "other" rifle, yours needs work. There are so many variables with rifle shooting. Is your rifle bedded and floated? When squeezing the trigger, does the rifle "suprise" you when it fires? When it fires where are the crosshairs in the scope located on the target? I could go on, but don't type well enough. Shoot me an email or PM, I'll try to help out.

Chuck
My rifles are floated. The shot is always a surprise...meaning I ignore the forthcoming recoil until it is felt. When I had a Bushnell Elite 6500 4.5-30 x 50mm scope on my 22-250 I could hold a very nice pattern at 300 yards but it was too much glass for hunting. Loved the scope, I could see the little holes at 300 yards with it. But when I reduced the magnification to 3X9 & 4X12 I had difficulty maintaining the pattern. I lost one coyote because by the time I found him in the glass, he was headed outta the zipcode. Needed a larger FOV.

Here are some 100 yard - 20rd groups:

R25 (.308)



45-70 Govt w/ Buffalo Bore ammo:



Both rifles are sighted in at 100 yards and the crosshairs are dead center on the paper unless there's wind. If I see a wind pattern forming, I adjust accordingly. The R25 has an Eotech w/ 2.5X flip magnifier, the 45-70 has a BDC scope. I have not used a mil dot scope. I cannot even get on paper with the .300WM unless it is in a Lead Sled w/ match loads and even then it is difficult. I think that gun hates me. It certainly beats me up and bruises my shoulder and ego. The recoil of that monster unpleasant and I'm thinking about selling it. Still sighting in my .243 and have no photos of those patterns yet.
 
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Sniper Chuck

Well-known member
Bruce,

Are you shooting 20 shots all together or are you shooting 3-5 shot strings and letting the barrel cool between strings?

Smaller scopes are harder to hold small groups with. I use a 36x scope for load development and switch to my fave 2.5-8x for all my hunting on all but one rifle. That's a 3-9x. The groups get a little larger, but not much.

Is the .300 a Win Mag or Weatherby Mag? What weight bullets?

Will continue later,

Chuck
 

Bubblehide

Well-known member
Bruce, chuck is right, it could be a whole bunch of things. But since your thinking about selling it, I'll be a nice guy and start the bidding at $1.00 :lol bashing sign:. Actually, I'd start with the gun it's-self, check the scope mounting, with special attention to a possible broken off screw at the threads. Second, I'd check how my loads fit the action/barrel, ideal would be 1/1000th spacing from the lans and groves (some box ammo just doesn't shoot out of some guns, and if you reload you can easily account for poor fits). I forget what ya call um, but they sell the little plastic spacing things at the range; basically you simply put a piece on the front of the bullet, rack it in the chamber, and carefully unload it. Based on the width of the mushed piece you can determine the spacing of the bullet from the lans and groves (same stuff as is used on engines. Based on your other groupings from your other guns, and the fact that you mentioned you couldn't tighten up the groups on the 300 with a lead sled, I would venture to guess that it isn't you.

Are we on for Thursday? if so bring the lead sled and spotting scope.
 

jackrabbit

Well-known member
Bubblehide -- Plastigage was the name of the stuff I used long ago on my VW engines to check the clearance of the engine rod bearings to the crank journals.

Given the spread on the 45-70 target picture I might suspect a flinch with the heavier recoil rounds. Also, I don't know how the crosshairs could be held on a specific target spot in the .308 picture since there is no center X on that type of target. And also, does that .308 pic indicate some instability in the bullet at impact (elongated puncture)?

I am by far not an expert, but when I shoot five shot groups at paper targets, the holes are perfectly round shaped unless a couple shots touch.

When I sight in my .300 weatherby at the range I place sand bags and towels between the buttstock and my shoulder -- no pain anticipation allows me concentrate totally on sight picture and trigger control. I only weigh 140, so heavy recoil pushes my body back in a sitting bench position (or standing), so I don't get such a great recoil impulse compression on my shoulder area.
 

Mr. Luckypants

Well-known member
I have 300WM and shooting 130TTSX. Recoil is heavy but felt recoil isn't that bad. I went and bought a slip on recoil pad (sims limbsaver) and the bruises went byebye. I can even shoot 180-200grn bullets and still do not get the bruises.

Just make sure to buy the slip on one and not the permanent as your LOP will change for sure. I do not use it while in the field only at the range.

As far as shooting goes, try practicing at much longer ranges. This will not only teach you to shoot better, but will force you to learn about your rifle AND your ammo. Will also force you to learn about reloading again even if you've been reloading for a million years.
 

Where's Bruce?

Well-known member
To fill in the blanks...I shoot 20rds in 20 minutes but no special waiting period. Maybe that's part of the problem
The two targets were taken while sighting in both rifles. The R25 was hitting low and you can see the steady track as I made adjustments to the sight. The bottom tape came loose and it was blowing up and therefore the holes look odd because it was not fastened well and flat. The 45-70 target was shot in windy conditions using a new bullet and that's the best pattern I got with it. About a 4" spread in 20MPH gusty wind.

The .300WM ammo is (HPBT) 190gr. hand loaded match grade stuff I bought from a guy on CG. Gave some to a buddy to try and he loved em!

I want to learn to shoot better for hunting situations so have practiced using sticks and bipods, same ammo and scope that I will use in the field (cuz that's what everyone said to do) but when I had the Elite 6500 scope, my accuracy was much better than it is with the lower magnification scope but no bueno for hunting.

What is the most energy absorbing aftermarket recoil pad available? Might as well get the best if I'm gonna get one.
 

spectr17

Administrator
Admin
Bruce, I'm just curious, have you even scrolled down the forum list? You do know we have gun forums and other forums right? Not everything goes in the Campfire, we try and keep this to jokes and stuff that doesn't go int the hunting, fishing or gun forums.
 

SpiritWalker

Well-known member
When I'm shooting for groups it can take me four or five hours to shoot 20 rounds. I wait at least 15 minutes between shots to let the barrel cool. Also clean the bore with copper killer every 3 rounds.

Start eliminating the variables that you have control over. Heat and copper buildup can play games with your consistency. Use a good bench and bags or sled. Make sure you are not torquing the rifle. Make sure your scope and mounts aren't loose too.
 

Where's Bruce?

Well-known member
Okay, I'll slow down. Think I will try a break on the .300 and a recoil pad. Signing up for the Appleseed course too. I'm open to anything that'll improve my accuracy.

Sorry Jess...wasn't sure where "shooting form and tutoring" would fit in the list.
 


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