Is this normal (OK) or just Lazy (lame)

[upperEA]

I was talking with the guy that married my wifes best friend and he is hunting in Montana next year for Elk. I asked him where he planned on hunting and he proceeded to explain how he had went on a guided elk hunt a couple of years ago on federal dirt and had saved all the GPS coordinates of the spots the guide took them to. I just kinda looked at him like really. I have never been on a guided hunt so is this normal? I kinda think it's as wrong as wrong can get. One I see it as lazy, find your own dam animals and two find your own dam animals.. Now this is the same guy I spent lots of $$ and time getting him a bear this year and got a handshake and a "thanks buddy" in return. so I thought maybe i'm bias and figured I would ask you guys...

 

[Jagermeister]

First of all, you don't need a GPS to remember where you went, do you? If he would have said that he went with a guide and that he will return to a few of the spots he remembers and marked on the map when he got home, you would feel a lot better about this, right?

The next thing that's stupid is the fact that the animals won't be where they were last year. Yes, he has some good starting points, but if you hunted just a few seasons in the same area, you know things are not that easy!

I think what would upset me the most is that he is bragging about this. Certainly not the type of guy I would want to go hunt with. If egos get too big and people get greedy, I don't want to spend my valuable spare time with them. It can be flat out dangerous too. You need someone to depend on if you have a good hunting partner.

Cheers, George

 

[easymoney]

First off, I would say from your last paragraph that this person is one who has no respect nor gratitude... I would steer clear of some so ungrateful!
And as to, whether keeping waypoints one gets by going with a paid guide is concerned, thats between him and the guide. I'm sure he would have to answer to this guide when he goes back to those exact spots and runs into that guide with his new "paying customer" he is expecting to put onto game he researched.
You said it was "federal dirt" which means he and the guide have access to use it. The guide took your friend there in the first place because he was expecting to see game there.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

The next thing that's stupid is the fact that the animals won't be where they were last year[/b]

I have gone back to the same mountain on public land and gotten into big bucks and bulls every single year in the same places...

"Just my two cents"

 

[tmoniz]

I wouldn't hunt with the guy. I know exactly where my guide took me to get my bull in Wyoming. It would be a logistical nightmare for me to attempt to get back in there. It's well worth the money just to book the guy again and worry about the hunt as opposed to horses and gear and food and tents and so forth.

 

[upperEA]

I have NO intention on hunting with this guy,just curious if it was just me that thought this was a little unethical (as a HUNTER) actually I am beginning to like hunting alone. It's nice to make your own decisions on where, when and how you are going to hunt. I think finding a good hunting partner is harder than finding a good wife

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I'm sure he would have to answer to this guide when he goes back to those exact spots and runs into that guide with his new "paying customer" he is expecting to put onto game he researched[/b]

I told my wife the same thing, Sure it's public land but I would think the guide would be pretty pissed if he ran into him two years later.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

If he would have said that he went with a guide and that he will return to a few of the spots he remembers and marked on the map when he got home, you would feel a lot better about this, right?[/b]

No not really.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

First of all, you don't need a GPS to remember where you went, do you?[/b]

Personaly no. Him I have no idea of his ability to navigate in the bush nor do I intend to find out.

 

[dirtpoor]

Maybe I'm missing something here? I don't use guide's but some of the best tip's about where to hunt came from guide's that I know. If they were hunting on federal land then the guide is very aware that the client may return on his own and I don't think they would have a problem with that. Guide's on public land work the odd's, the vast majority of their hunter's could not or would not return to hunt alone for various reason's, the biggest reason is that if they needed a guide they weren't able to do it on their own in the first place. Many people starting out will hire a guide the first time to learn the rope's and then strike out on their own. If it were a private ranch and the client tried to get permission to hunt without the guide then I could see where there might be a problem, but on public land as far as I'm concerned no problem. If I understand this correctly if you hired a fishing guide to take you out on a public lake then you would not go back and fish those area's again on your own ? Seem's like that would be why I would hire a guide in the first place , to pick his brain !

 

[muskeg]

I guide on public lands .... Tongass NF .... I only ask my clients that they do not come and hunt where I hunt.

I even have had hunters book a hunt in order to learn how to hunt that animal in this place. With the intentions to hunt on thier own later. They tell me this. I don't mind at all.

There is plenty of room to spread out. There is plenty of area where I cannot guide that a hunter could hunt.

I have never had the problem of any of my hunters hunting my Guide Use Area.

 

[One Track]

It's a very good question. I hunted the Kaibab last year with an outfitter. I didn't have time to scout, and I had never been to the Kiabab. So, I felt it was in my best interest to hire a guide. I'm glad I did. I not only killed a huge buck, I learned more in five days than I could have in a lifetime of solo hunting. (It's all about glassing.)

I often thought about the next time I draw that tag. Yes, I would definitely do it without a guide. I learned enough to hunt the area myself. And, I would want to go hunt where I hunted with the outfitter. But, there is a serious level of guilt just thinking about glassing from the guide's favorite spots. On one hand, I felt that since I paid a pretty penny for guidance, I should be entitled to hunt wherever I wanted. (It's public land.) On the other hand, I don't think I could do that to a great guide that I respect so much. I figured that when I drew the tag, I would ask the outfitter what he thought. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

Luckily for me, this has been resolved. I asked the guide about it back in September when I was working for him on an archery elk hunt. He told me that he would expect me to go self-guided. I was surprised! Then, he said that he hoped that I would stay in his camp, so he could help me out. That's good people. Now, I just need to draw that dern tag again.

As for pulling out a gps to mark a guide's hot spot. I think that's rude. Going back to the same general area on your own, thas just seems practical. In my opinion, there's no black and white answer.

As for hunting solo being more enjoyable than hunting with a buddy, that's hit or miss too. After hunting for a few years with an unreliable partner, it's natural to enjoy hunting alone. But, I found that that gets old as well. It gets lonely, and there's nobody to share the excitement with. Once you find a great hunting partner, it's fun again. At least, that's been my experience.

 

[tmoniz]

It's very hard trying to find a hunting partner. Someone who has the same style and standards. My dad once told me, "you never really know how someone is until you go hunting with them."

I remember while on a guided elk trip in the Teton Wilderness we were back at the base camp. I saw some people riding towards our camp. I mentioned it to the outfitter/guide. He immediately walked out to speak with them.

I found out later that these hunters asked him if he had any coffee on the stove.
I heard that he told them the camp was bought and paid for by 4 of his clients and to hit the road.

These guys actually tried to follow us around on our morning hunts. The wrangler stayed back one morning and told them to knock it off.

You gotta get out there and do your homework. Most people, guides and other hunters don't mind giving advice or general directions.

 

[upperEA]

Thanks for the insight One Track.

I can see where if you talked with the guide up front and he knew your intentions from the start it would make things a little diffrent. I would not expect anyone to stay clear of an area just because they hunted there with a guide in the past. I guess as you stated OT it all boils down to respect. Dirt poor you aren't missing anything I just wanted to hear how other felt on the subject thats all.

 

[dirtpoor]

TMONIZ, I'm curious why your guide wouldn't share your fire ? I've alway's been welcome at another hunter's campfire and they at mine. If they had idea's about following you around you would learn that quick enough and could get your point across to them one on one.If your guide falls off his horse then those other hunters might have been life saver's to get your party out of the wood's, no disrespect meant, just curious .

 

[Big Moose]

Here's another twist. Last year while hunting in Colorado we had a guide/outfitter come into our camp with two clients booked for the next season. It was the last day of our season and we were taking photos of our bucks and bulls. There were lots of smiling faces as we had done well (seven bucks and two bulls). The guide also took some photos and before we got home he had contacted some friends of ours (that he did not know that we knew) and told them he had guided us to our animals !! Unbelieveable ! He was showing our photos to what he thought might be his next year's clients !

We had hunted on national forest and BLM lands on our own. We had locked up the heads in a enclosed trailer while hunting and only had them out to photo them before breaking camp. In the future we will be even more leary of stangers coming into our camp. Especially guides from Utah !!

Moose

 

[tmoniz]

Dirtpoor

I guess the outfiter/guide felt that 4 hunters paid for a wilderness elk camp.
There were so many people involved with this camp that there were plenty of people to carry any one out. That was his business not mine.

We were 25 miles in on horse back. You don't expect to see a lot of passer byes.
The guide was in the business of getting us on an elk. Not making campfire buddies. Like I said I didn't pay attention to the whole deal. It was just his way.

 

[Speckmisser]

Interesting thread, and great responses. I've wondered about this myself, as my CO trips have been guided on public land. There's really nothing stopping me from running back into the same area on my own except my personal sense of honor, but I have considered it often.

This issue is a huge big deal in the guided fishing business, and I've heard some captains get pretty hot under the collar when talking about clients marking their spots on GPS in order to come back later. It's gotten to the point where some of these guys will search your gear to make sure you're not carrying a handheld unit before you even get on the boat.

Maybe that's a little different than marking a hunting guide's elk or deer spot, but not to me. It makes sense that the guide puts in a lot of sweat equity to secure a hot spot, and that's his stock in trade. I have hunted with at least one guide who spoke pretty unpleasantly about someone who came back to his hot spot the following year.

It's public land, just like it's public ocean, so the only limitation is your personal set of values. For myself, I would draw the line at asking the guide, up front, and only returning with his welcome. Others may feel differently about it, and I can't say that you're wrong. This is certainly not a clear-cut area.

 

[tmoniz]

As for this particular area regarding my guided elk hunt. I would have to round up some horses and mules. Find a place to stage them. Then round up some tents and a bunch of cooking gear. Get packs and feed for the animals. Ride in about 20 plus miles. Find a place to camp. Corral the animals. Then setup camp. And any and all other labor associated with the whole endeavor. Tend to the animals or maybe hire a wrangler and a cook.

Or better yet, just book a spot with the outfitter and just pay for their services and concentrate on hunting elk. Really good outfitters put a lot of time and labor into making their client's trip a success. This is how they make their living. I wouldn't want to take that away from them.

As for my grumpy guide. His back was bothering him. But he got us up every morning at 4 am. Made sure we had plenty for breakfast, and then rode out and pushed us as hard as we could stand. It paid off.

I would rather book him again than try to figure out a cheap way of getting back in there.

 

[rusman66]

Interesting thread. This is why Hunting is such a great activity.
It shows a certain level of respect for one another just in the fact that you have thought it through.
It is certainly a valid issue considering the cost of a guided hunt. Is it enough to gain valuable experiance from a guide and then head out on your own in a different area? and try out your new skills.
Most lessons in life tell us to learn from other peoples experiences and mistakes.
But hunters will tell you to get out there and put in your own time learn and make your own mistakes.
Some would ask why go out and re-invent the wheel? Doesn't that slow down the progress, if I can't use what others have learned.

This might be the fundemental reason we enjoy hunting so much more than going to work. Not to mention why some people miss out on a key part of hunting.

Maybe its not so much about the progress but more about the learning experience and your own personal success.

So my conclusion is this: Don't jump too far ahead you might miss out on a lot of fun :xmas-hat: