Just a question....

[Shot]

Before I start I don't mean to step on any body's toes. I am just curious.

Ok, here it goes. Everyone knows that wildlife doesn't belong to anyone. So, lets think of this scenario. I go wild pig hunting on a private ranch that is self guided and they charge $400. Well, that $400 is technically a trespass fee, right?. Because if I choose to shoot two pigs, then does the ranch owner have the right to charge for the second pig? Another way to put it is, if wildlife belongs to everyone then way can people charge you for killing it?

Also, before people responded I understand that if someone guides you then you are paying for the service. If you’re on private land then you are paying for trespass fees. But what law is there that allows people to charge for wildlife (number of kills, trophy fees, etc.)?

There might be a simple answer to this, but today at work I was thinking about it and I couldn't come up with an answer or find one on the net.

Also, not that I would ever try this, it wouldn't be sportsman like.

 

[bayedsolid]

This one made me scratch my head a little. Good question. I've typed two different responses, and tossed them out when I finished, trying to answer this. My third attempt here.....I think is the one I'm gonna stick with. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Ok, here it goes. Everyone knows that wildlife doesn't belong to anyone.[/b]

I think wildlife pretty much does belong to the landowners. Maybe not by law but that is what the reality is. If you have a big ranch, most of the wildlife that lives there, lives there all year long, and if they don't, then you own them while they are around. The landowner pretty much has the say so as to what happens to everything. Another way that I've been looking at this is.......My house dog is running around outside right now and could run away if she chose. So does the fact that she could leave, but chooses not to, make her not my dog???? Someone could trespass on my property and take my dog, which is stealing......just like it would be if you trespassed and took game off of private property, but while the dog chooses to stay here she is mine.
To answer your question, I suppose, technically, you might be able to get away with it once if things aren't worded right in a contract, or if there is no written contract, but they could word things differently and fix the loop-hole. They could word it to say that you are charged for storage on each dead animal?????? I'm going to have to meditate on this.......and get back to you. OOOOHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMM..........OOOOOOHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMM

 

[Shot]

bayedsolid,

I was thinking the same way, but there are way to many loop holes that come up.
If the charge storage fee, than someone can say "I won't store it, I will take it right off your property once killed."

I wanted to know if there is a law that says a landowner can charge for the animal itself (or cannot).

Ok, lets say I go on a self guided hunt to a private ranch and decide to shoot 10 pigs and only pay for one (the $400). Can the land owner take me to court for the rest of the money?

 

[SierraExplorer]

In short- I am sure you will be signing a 2-7 page contract that has all your questions asked and answered- but you did not take the time to read it all.

I got into a discussion with a great old frind of mine yesterday- first were were talking about the $15 tag fee for a pig tag and he asked if I bought any. "Of course- and another" In short he said he has no reason- they have a private ranch (do not guide or let anyone tresspass) and they purchased say 5 pigs 3-4 years ago and let them out on the ranch- Who can claim ownership for them on their ranch? I sort of argued that it is "unethical" for myself as I can not do that under the DFG laws. Can he? I dont know and told him that is something that he has to decide- His answer- " I am 83 years old- they can kiss my arse"

But his point is true- if he release some in no mans land- and they ventured to the other ranches and bred with others on other property- unless trapped and marked- who can claim them and the siblings?

Just another thought for 7Mag to ponder and bang his head on the monitor as the owners hold the card.

But a very intresting descussion and points....it really does go back to the the JHO Pro Staff article...

http://www.jesseshunting.com/articles/hunt...tegory2/61.html

Dan

 

[Shot]

Originally posted by SierraExplorer@Dec 14 2004, 08:34 PM
In short- I am sure you will be signing a 2-7 page contract that has all your questions asked and answered- but you did not take the time to read it all.

Dan, I am not sure what you mean by this.

I do agree its unethical, but I wanted to know the legal issues behind it.

 

[SierraExplorer]

I did not mean you personally-

But rather when I have signed one I just glanced over it- signed where I needed to, shook hands and got to hunting. What I ment rather was that the land owner may have clauses in there to protect you most importantly, his stock so he can keep a viable resourse for other hunters.. ect....

Mabey I am on a different page than your original question... God only knows it wont be the last time for myself.

Dan

 

[SierraExplorer]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I go wild pig hunting on a private ranch that is self guided and they charge $400. Well, that $400 is technically a trespass fee, right?. Because if I choose to shoot two pigs, then does the ranch owner have the right to charge for the second pig?[/b]

Lets say for instance Choppers place- He ALLOWS you to take up to 2 pigs and it is in the contract and/or handshake- I know for sure it is here in good faith on JHO.

If I was hunting at Choppers- and I have one in the rack- and shoot another that passes throuogh and mortally kills another- I have no idea how that would work- but most likely knowing Chopper- I would owe him a case or three of Crown and some labor or $'s (I hope not to put words in his mouth) but in short- my BAD shot- my consequences whatever the outcome- and rightfully deserved.

 

[Shot]

Originally posted by SierraExplorer@Dec 14 2004, 08:55 PM
What I ment rather was that the land owner may have clauses in there to protect you most importantly, his stock so he can keep a viable resourse for other hunters.. ect....

This is my whole point. It is technically not Chopper's stock, right? or am I wrong here. (Chopper, in no way am I trying to step on your toes, you run a A+ place)

 

[SierraExplorer]

I believe if not branded/marked by a rightful owner- and on say Choppers or any other land owners ranch- they are the land owners stock once on their property. By stock I think it applies if they have reciepts from years prior that are shown purchased but not accounted for later. Then consider in the reproductions....

The same goes if the "stock" went off and onto public land- the owner loses his stock unless he can keep them fenced in. If they are branded or marked and on public propery I have NO idea if there are any legal ownership because once on public property- they are considered Vermon...

If cows were Vermon (asnd they are to our forrest) I would be having me Black Angus every year in D-5

Cornfused as much as me?

Please help here also in this question anyone.

 

[Mel Carter]

I don't know if this is the answer your looking for or not, but the way I see it is this. It's their property, if you want to be able to hunt it by paying a tresspass fee then you follow their rules. If they say you are allowed to take one hog, then it's one hog, they own the land, they make the rules. It's like hunting a ranch in say Wyoming, you have a deer tag and elk tag, your paying a tresspass fee to hunt deer on this guys ranch, but he doesn't allow elk hunting because he likes to look at them. Does that mean since he technically doesn't own the animals, you can shoot them anyway?

As far as the differences between a guided hunt and paying a tresspass fee, I don't really see much of a difference, your still going to be able to take only one hog in most places. Your basically paying for them to gut, skin and possibly help get the animal out, but still are only allowed one hog. So, like you said, your paying for their services, not the animal your hunting.

So, basically it comes down to this, as far as I see it. It's game management! If they were to allow anyone to kill as many hogs as they wanted, then their may not be nothing left for them to hunt in later years. Just my

 

[larrysogla]

In the State of Calif. Mammals & Furbearers Hunting booklet it says that "Except as provided in this Title 14, and in the Fish and Game Code, resident game birds, game mammals and furbearing mammals may not be taken(hunt, pursue,catch, capture or kill or attempt to hunt, pursue, catch, capture or kill) at any time". I read somewhere(I forgot where) that wildlife are the property of the State of Calif. as opposed to livestock which is privately owned. So even if you own a 100,000 acre ranch & the wild pigs never leave your ranch, since they are wildlife, according to statute, you cannot shoot, pursue, capture, catch or kill or attempt to do so without a valid hunting license & pig tag & only within legal shooting hours & with legal (centerfire expanding) bullets & if it is deer, must be legal buck & open season. You are also not allowed to bring home road kill. It does not matter if the wildlife is a permanent resident in your ranch, you must still observe legal hunts & limits, being that the State is

acting as owner of these animals. I remember that Boartracks got in trouble for putting an "accompanied???" hunt as prize for a charity raffle for his fellow soldiers. Also, Tejon cancelled(I am guessing) the $500 prize for the heaviest pig in their pig-o-rama out of concern over this issue. Bottom line is watch the fine print & keep reading the updates on the Calif. F & G booklets. Keep safe. God Bless. larrysogla.

 

[bigtusker]

Here is the way I see it:

Wild animals on private property don't belong to anyone, but if you want to hunt the wild animals on private property, you will have to pay a reasonable access fee. For that access fee you will be allowed the opportunity to shoot (or wound) "X" number of animals. Whether it be a written or verbal agreement, it is still an agreement.

For example, on my ranch(I can't speak for any others) The fee is $450 per hunter. Non-hunters pay $50 per day.
For that $450, I afford you the opportunity to TAKE 2 wild hogs, if the opportunity presents itself. My definition of TAKE = to draw blood.
You also get to stay in a VERY NICE cabin with hot showers, a full kitchen, outdoor bar-b-q, 3 bedrooms(so you can isolate the snorers) and a huge fireplace with lots of firewood.
You also get the use of my covered skinning area with electric hoist and my walk-in cooler.
And probably the most important thing you will receive is my local knowledge of the land and where the animals most likely will be.

On the same note, if the animals walk thru the fence to the neighbors, they are off limits.


If you agree to hunt with me and you go out on my ranch and shoot 10 pigs, I will charge you $200 more per animal above the 2 you are allowed. I have that right. It's in my agreement that you will sign before you are allowed to hunt on my property. If you refuse to sign it, you will be asked to leave, NO HUNT FOR YOU. If you sign and still choose to shoot 10 pigs and won't pay, I'll see you in court. And it will be in MY court in MY town, not yours, that's in the agreement also.

NOTE: California Department of Fish & Game requires all persons in the state engaging in "guiding" to furnish to their clients a paper explaining basicly "What you get for your money".

On my particular property, I am archery only for a couple of reasons.

First and foremost is Safety. Having 8 guys with bows is better than 8 guys with rifles. My residence is in the middle of the ranch and my family is almost always there during my hunts and I have livestock all over. I used to do rifle hunts, several JHO'ers can attest to the shotgun blast in the wall of my cabin. Not to mention the guy that nearly blew a hole in me in 2002.(last rifle hunt I did)

Second is Game Management. By allowing archery only, less animals are taken leaving more to breed for future hunters. The more animals on the property, the better your chance in filling a tag or 2.

I kind of got off topic a bit, but bottom line is, private property is private. You want to hunt there, you pay and follow the rules.

 

[bubba]

I think Chopper summed it up quite nicely.

Something else to consider, these animals are wild and not owned, but they do eat the food plots and such that are cultivated for stock. So its more than game management, but also compensation for loss of feed for stock.

 

[bigtusker]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Something else to consider, these animals are wild and not owned, but they do eat the food plots and such that are cultivated for stock. So its more than game management, but also compensation for loss of feed for stock.[/b]

Good point Bubba.

Don't forget Saturday, meet by the yellow jeep at 0800 hours.

 

[Shot]

Guys thanks for the info.

I just wanted to know the legal rights of a landowner over the wild game on his/her property.

Chopper, if everything is in your agreement and the hunters sign it, then they agree to that. So what ever they shoot they pay for.

But.....

What I was looking for was maybe a legal DFG law that says something about this issue. Some guides that I went with only have hunters sign a insurance paper and not what the service provides.

Chopper, you would know better, lets say you only had hunters sign a insurance policy paper, and they say they want to hunt pigs, but bagged a deer instead. What legal rights would a owner have to take them to court?

Thanks again guys for the info.

 

[bigtusker]

Good question on the deer thing. I will never have that problem as I don't do pig hunts during deer season. But if one of my hunters shot a deer on a pig hunt at my place. I'd just call fish & game. Let them hanlde it.

 

[larrysogla]

Good discussion. Amen to letting the law handle poaching(which is what it is). God Bless. larrysogla.