Lion Stalking- Be careful my fellow bowhunters!

BuckFinder

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To those who I have confused. I was done hunting as it had heated up and the deer I had seen were all bedded up. When I got out of the car for a second time I was only hoping to check out an area from a high ridge. That is when one ridge actually turned into three. However, on my turnaround and running into the lion on my fresh made trail, he was only some 500 yards from the road. Every hunter I have talked to said I did the right thing and that this bold lion was sizing up the situation. I have admitted that leaving the car unarmed was not bright. My future plans and preparation are forever changed. As for wrestling one of these guys I can't fathom that thought unless a last possible resort. I only posted this to warn my fellow hunters that these encounters are becoming more common in these parts. I was just thankful I was alone and didn't have my young son and future hunting partner with me.
 

Huntr Pat

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Glad you made it back safe. My wife and I hike the Harvery bear ranch 3 times a week. The local rancher told me that a lion with cubs are lurking in the hills. I normally hike with my hounds or catahoula.
 

TonyS

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Kit, where I hunt long tail are becoming more and more common. In the last 12 months I have SEEN five. God knows how many I didn't see.
 

Kit Fox

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Kit Fox

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Kit, where I hunt long tail are becoming more and more common. In the last 12 months I have SEEN five. God knows how many I didn't see.
Mr. Longtail is my biggest concern when I go outdoors by myself. I've read hear where hunters thought about wearing spiked collars while hiking at 3:00 AM in Lion Habitat.
 

TonyS

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hahahah.....why not just stuff your pockets with catnip?
 

DFG_Bear

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Good questions all. I thought I'd provide some insight into lion behavior for you all to mill over.

First, lions are not a flight response animal. They are an ambush predator. They make a living by sitting completely still for long periods of time, not wanting to be noticed. The numerous cats I've intentionally approached (I'm DFG's Bear & Lion Biologist BTW) have just crouched and waited for me to leave. Don't misinterpret this for an aggressive behavior. They rely on not being noticed; if you have seen them and have responded to their presence, they know the game is up and just want you to leave.

Shooting in the ground or in the air to scare them away doesn't work. Don't expect them to flee from this action. There are two aspects of every negative stimulus - intensity and duration. A gunshot report is high in intensity, but short on duration. Conversely, a low growl is low in intensity, but can be long on duration. Neither of these have proven to be effective on deterring lions. If you're going to make a loud noise, make sure it lasts a long time. Airhorns have worked at close range.

If you spot a lion in the wild, pay close attention to its behavior and body language. If it crouches down flat, stares at you and has its ears perked up in your direction or lying down flat, it's either trying to see what you're going to do (hoping you'll leave) or trying to blend in (flat ears reflect light just like surrounding leaves and acts as camouflage). Conversely, if it's crouched low in front with its rear raised up, tail twitching, ears pinned forward or pinned directly back (so you can't see them), get ready for a fight.

In most cases, your best response is to keep kids and animals with you (one guy had a dog that chased after a lion, only to come running back between the owner's legs with the lion in close pursuit). Raise your arms and shout at the cat. While keeping your eye on the cat, pick up rocks or branches and throw them at the cat. Get higher than the cat (I chased a lion through a boulder field one time - she would jump up on a rock, then I'd jump to another rock higher than her; then she would jump up on a higher rock - we went at this for about 10 minutes until I reached the top of the hill when she slunked away). Act bigger than you really are. If you're attacked, fight back with everything you've got - disable that cat as best you can. One gal shoved her hand down a lion's throat and pinned it to the ground just to save her kids' lives (she died BTW). Another guy shoved his thumb in a cat's eye, which gave him enough time to get out his pocket knife and stabbed the lion close to 50 times in the chest - the guy survived, barely.

To answer the question about how big you need to be to thwart an attack, I've read reports of loggers in the woods being attacked and killed by lions. Some of these guys were really big men. In the research I did, I located records of over 750 attacks on humans in North and South America. I do not recall the story of a guy swinging a cat by its tail. If you could, please share.

Hope this helps.
Marc
 

DirtyDave

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Great info Marc. Your presence here on JHO is really appreciated.
 

map

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Thanks Marc, your input is appreciated. The East Bay open space areas and the Diablo Mountains east of San Jose had the highest Cougar density during 1993. (13 adult Cougars per 100 square miles) Those figures are from the Fall 1993 "Pacific Discovery Magazine"

Do you think that those figures are holding?

At present we have Blacktail Deer all over the place, which seems to point to the Cougars being good for maintaining the deer herd numbers?

Lately, it hasn't been politically correct to sound the alarm for a lion sighting. People around here seem to have adjusted to the lions.
 

Mr. Luckypants

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The report of a guy swinging the lions tail was from a magazine I was reading while waiting at the doctor's office at Kaiser in Folsom. The story goes like this:

A few friends walked down to a lake and one of the female in the group was lagging behind. Well a lion basically attacked her. Later when the other friends didn't noticed her they came looking only to find a cat attacking her. One of the "bigger" male friends reported he grabbed the lion by the tail and swung it.

I have been googling to see if this same report is online or not. So far I can't find it. I don't recall the name of the magazine I was reading as this was over a year ago. I don't think this "bigger" male would BS in her report. I also think that a "smaller" lion can be man handled with enough adrenaline in you.

Your feedback didn't indicate the "size" of the lions killing these "big" lumber jacks. One can only assume they were full size adult cats. However, if they are young adult cats weighing 70lbs, then we are in trouble. With that in mind then why are we not allowed to carry a handgun during bow season? I'm sure a lion will die much FASTER if I shot it 50 times vs. stabbing it.

Also, you seem to have vast knowledge of lions vs. humans wrt the odds of one being able to survive when attacked. With this knowlegde what do you recommend when a lion is attacking you? How can you survive an attack? We now know that stabbing it 50 times doesn't work or not as efficient.

If you are saying that us mortals have NO chance at surviving when attacked by a lion then why are you (DFG) letting us hunt deer in archery season w/o propper protection from this kiling machine?
 

tony270

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Thanks for providing us with your professional experiences DFG Bear.
I
I’ve notice the same behavior in vicious dogs. When I look at them straight in the eyes and charged them the majority will retreat. But some won’t fall for that bluff. They just keep coming because they’re genetically programmed to fight, and some will fight to the death. I've done that for years, most of the times that works. On the rare occasion that it doesn’t work I'd be prepared for a fight and or flight response.
I’ve known men who were brave and strong enough to grab a mountain lion by the tail if it was in the act of attacking someone. To kill it I would repeatedly swing it around and then slam it into the ground over and over and then stomp it to death. That’s not hard for me to believe. That’s how some dogs kill animals. What they essentially do is rag-doll the animal to disorientate it and keep it away from its body, and then they'll let go and go in for the kill. Humans that are in life and death situations are known to exhibit extraordinary strength to protect life. Even a small person pumped up on adrenalin can become a superhuman.
Making oneself look bigger, shouting, throwing rocks and branches is good advice, but sometimes a 12 gauge with buckshot or firearm is best. If a life is in eminent danger shoot to kill. And when questioned by LE let them know the truth that a life was in eminent danger.
The best thing to say is that I don't want to make a statement or answer any questions right now. I want to speak to an attorney first. Be kind and considerate and tell them that you hope they understand Sir/Mamma, thank you.
That is my unprofessional opinion, so take it for what it's worth.
 
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DirtyDave

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With this knowlegde what do you recommend when a lion is attacking you? How can you survive an attack? We now know that stabbing it 50 times doesn't work or not as efficient.
Pretty obvious answer to that question. Marc answered it before you asked it.

If you're attacked, fight back with everything you've got - disable that cat as best you can.
If something/somebody is attacking you and trying to kill you, there is only 1 thing to do. Fight back, Fight for your life, there are NO RULES when defending your life. Use any means necessary to stay alive. There is no "text book" way to defend yourself, you just do what you have to do.
 

DFG_Bear

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Thanks Marc, your input is appreciated. The East Bay open space areas and the Diablo Mountains east of San Jose had the highest Cougar density during 1993. (13 adult Cougars per 100 square miles) Those figures are from the Fall 1993 "Pacific Discovery Magazine"

Do you think that those figures are holding?

At present we have Blacktail Deer all over the place, which seems to point to the Cougars being good for maintaining the deer herd numbers?

Lately, it hasn't been politically correct to sound the alarm for a lion sighting. People around here seem to have adjusted to the lions.
Seems reasonable. At higher densities, younger lions will typically be forced out of remote areas into adjacent urban settings. I've heard lots of lion sighting reports coming from the Berkely/Redwood City/Livermore areas. Sightings typically spike when the young are being forced out.
 

DFG_Bear

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I'm not sure how to respond to those of you who believe a man can thrash a lion by its tail. I'm not saying it's impossible. A UFC champion or an MMA heavyweight might be able to grasp it and give it a fling, but swinging it around over their head? Doubtful. A cat's spine is remarkably flexible, which allows them to spin around in ways you can't imagine possible. Also, females over 1.5 yrs old weigh about 90 lbs, and males of similar age weigh about 125.

Moreover, wild animals, like bears and lions, are pound-for-pound about 10-15 times stronger than a human. I'm a rather large guy, and although I'm not trying to kill them, I have a difficult time restraining 10 pound bear or lion cubs. I can't figure out how to explain to you how much a ball of fury these things really are. Of course, they most likely believe they're fighting for their lives.

What should you do if attacked? We typically say to fight back. But OK, what does that really mean? I say fight with intestinal fortitude and give them everything you've got. No holds barred, below the belt allowed. I mean bite, kick, scratch, poke, scream, yell, push, stomp, kick, anything. If you can, pin it down under your weight. Put a stick in its mouth to give it something else to chew on. Gouge an eye out. Never give up. If you're tired and out of breath, too bad - suck it up and hit it again.

The problem with understanding these situations is that I'll never know what most of the victims who were killed in these situations tried to do.
 

DirtyDave

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I'm not sure how to respond to those of you who believe a man can thrash a lion by its tail. I'm not saying it's impossible. A UFC champion or an MMA heavyweight might be able to grasp it and give it a fling, but swinging it around over their head? Doubtful. A cat's spine is remarkably flexible, which allows them to spin around in ways you can't imagine possible. Also, females over 1.5 yrs old weigh about 90 lbs, and males of similar age weigh about 125.

Moreover, wild animals, like bears and lions, are pound-for-pound about 10-15 times stronger than a human. I'm a rather large guy, and although I'm not trying to kill them, I have a difficult time restraining 10 pound bear or lion cubs. I can't figure out how to explain to you how much a ball of fury these things really are. Of course, they most likely believe they're fighting for their lives.
Exactly this.
Wild animals "fight for their lives" on a pretty regular basis, like daily. Most people will go through their life without ever having to PHYSICALLY FIGHT for their life. Yeah, most of us have been in a fist fight or 9, myself included, though I have never felt my life was in danger in a fight.
But if you are wearing your Luckpants then you are probably good to go.:lol bashing sign:
 

tony270

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I didn’t mean to convey that a man can grab a mountain lion by the tail face to face, but IMO under certain circumstances that is possible. Everybody has different capabilities, some better than others, not many people have the mental ability to complete the prescribed studies to receive a PhD in Wildlife Biology. Just like not many people have extraordinary strength and courage like the ones I'm going to post.

I know a man from Mississippi who could put a mule in a headlock and rig it up, and then force it to pull a plough. I know another man who could throw a 200 lbs chain over a trailer full of logs. The same man was shot to death by Hattiesburg police after he manhandle one of them and took his gun. He gave the gun back and when he started to manhandle two of them they shot him to death. That man could summon up strength like somebody on PCP and he never did drugs, he was a Black redneck and my friend and employer at one time. His name was Stanly Brown (RIP), he was part owner with his Father and Brothers of a logging company out of Petal Mississippi. I know a man that when he was 13 could run down a roadrunner and catch it, he still lives in Palm Springs, and his name is Clarence Williams (we call his family the Bulls because they’re so strong). I know a man who killed a pit-bull that was attacking him by choking and biting it to death, really, man bites dog.

If a Mountain Lion was facing away from me and preoccupied with attacking someone I believe that I could grab it by the tail smash his ass into a tree or into the ground. I know and have known people that can/could pick up a stick of pulpwood that weights 400 lbs, and then walk 20 yards to a pulpwood truck so someone could push it on the truck (at one time I could do that too). I could also carry by hand with the help of another man a 350 Chevy engine block and loaded it onto and off of a pickup truck.

I had a grip of like vice grip pliers, also I was into kung fu and that added to my grip strength. I know a couple of different people who picked up a car that fell on their love one, one of them was 65 year old lady.

All of that is the honest truth. I hate to sound like an old man.
I'm not sure how to respond to those of you who believe a man can thrash a lion by its tail. I'm not saying it's impossible. A UFC champion or an MMA heavyweight might be able to grasp it and give it a fling, but swinging it around over their head? Doubtful. A cat's spine is remarkably flexible, which allows them to spin around in ways you can't imagine possible. Also, females over 1.5 yrs old weigh about 90 lbs, and males of similar age weigh about 125.

Moreover, wild animals, like bears and lions, are pound-for-pound about 10-15 times stronger than a human. I'm a rather large guy, and although I'm not trying to kill them, I have a difficult time restraining 10 pound bear or lion cubs. I can't figure out how to explain to you how much a ball of fury these things really are. Of course, they most likely believe they're fighting for their lives.

What should you do if attacked? We typically say to fight back. But OK, what does that really mean? I say fight with intestinal fortitude and give them everything you've got. No holds barred, below the belt allowed. I mean bite, kick, scratch, poke, scream, yell, push, stomp, kick, anything. If you can, pin it down under your weight. Put a stick in its mouth to give it something else to chew on. Gouge an eye out. Never give up. If you're tired and out of breath, too bad - suck it up and hit it again.

The problem with understanding these situations is that I'll never know what most of the victims who were killed in these situations tried to do.
 
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Mr. Luckypants

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The only time I ever walk in the forest w/o my handgun is during archery season. My point is why on earth does DFG know about this killing machine and yet limit us hunters from protecting ourselves? I don't buy the bow hunter using a handgun to poach crap as most bow hunters know that a bow is much more accurate than a handgun from a distance.

btw, the lion who attacked the woman where a friend or boyfriend claimed to grabbed the lion by the tail is name Shannon Parker. Most of the stories stated the lion got stabbed and rocked but the magazine I've read talked about how one of the guys grabbed the lion's tail and swung it as well. Maybe send her an email and ask her about the story then you'll get your answer.

You just have to face the facts that there are real men out there and then there are others. Men who got balls enough to grab a lion's tail and swing it.

I have personally been in a few fist fights myself. I don't like to fight and would rather not. However, I always prepare myself as if I'm going to fight. My model is to be strong enough to throw an adult male thru a car window AND be able to run 5 miles w/o stopping, run the 40yd dash in 4.5 seconds.

I have never stated I can personally take on a lion but if attacked I think I can fend it off enough to survive. I can even do better if allowed to have a handgun during archery season.
 

tony270

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I know people whose ancestors had to eat from a hollowed out stump, people with genetics like that are hard. It is true that most country folks are stronger than city folks, not all, but most.
 
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Mr. Luckypants

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Pretty obvious answer to that question. Marc answered it before you asked it.



If something/somebody is attacking you and trying to kill you, there is only 1 thing to do. Fight back, Fight for your life, there are NO RULES when defending your life. Use any means necessary to stay alive. There is no "text book" way to defend yourself, you just do what you have to do.

You obviously missed the point. I wanted DFG bear to say use a handgun if attacked.
 

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