More from the CA. DFG

[F350]

This is a reply to my most recent question.
Hope it helps or keeps some of you out of trouble.

John,

It will never have the final answer! I use this scenario in training
new Wardens except I use deer, as the pig issue makes it actually a
little easier to answer.

The issues are two fold.

Number one: The hunter is required by law not to waste game FGC 4304;
however, only to the extent that a "Reasonable Effort" is made to
retrieve the game. Is it "reasonable" to break the law and trespass to
do so... I don't think so. However it is morally wrong!

Number two: The landowner has the right to keep people off his
property and anyone who enters without permission is in violation of
trespass PC 602, or if the person has his gun, possibly FGC 2016 Hunter
Trespass.

A side issue is if the landowner tries to keep the game that died on
their property, that makes it a little cleaner as we have a law that
makes the animal belong to the person who actually wounded the animal
and is in "Hot Pursuit" of the animal. The law makes it a misdemeanor
for someone to take the animal which by law belongs to the person who
has wounded it and is in Hot Pursuit of the animal. However, the hunter
should call DFG to make the inquiry, not enter the private property and
get in a dispute with the landowner!

What it all boils down to is the hunter needs to be resonsible enough
to not hunt near areas where this type of situation can develop and to
do whatever possible to minimize the situation.

That is the best I can do to answer that one!

Michael P. Carion
Acting Assistant Chief
Training and Administrative Services Unit
mcarion@dfg.ca.gov
916-653-7135

 

[LeeChul]

I would still hop the fence to get the pig. Just my

.

Like he said you have to make a reasonable effort to try and recover the game. I think its reasonable to jump the fence. Your judgement of reasonable may be different. But that is what makes us all unique individuals.

If the land owner had a problem and approached me, I'd say, "Oh, I'm sorry is this your property. Give me a moment and I'll be gone." If he had a problem with that I'd tell him he should build a fence that wouldn't allow animals to cross the property line.

 

[Marty]

I take issue with this statement:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Is it "reasonable" to break the law and trespass to
do so... I don't think so. However it is morally wrong![/b]

IMO, duly authorized (government) officials should restrict their opinions to the legal interpretation of a law or statute. Unless such a statement is properly presented as an explicite expression of personal belief. (ie. "In my opinion, it is morally wrong to abandon game.")

I would agree that it is appropriate to 'hop a fence' to retrieve downed game, when/where the act of obtaining 'right to tresspass' from the landowner may jeopardize the harvest. Many people want to confuse the issue with poaching. As such, I do not consider such tresspass to be 'hostile' toward the land owner. If the landowner did request that you vacate his property, you must oblige. However, the landowner better have an appropriate game tag, because my next stop may be to talk with the local warden.

 

[F350]

Marty,
While it may not be 100% correct to state his opinion in the manner he did,
Capt. Carion did take the time (Twice now) to try and help with some clarification for JHO'ers.

He has also given next day responses to questions which could make the difference between a brother hunter getting into trouble or not. If I were going hunting this weekend, I'd be glad I read this before hand.

The guy has been a true gentleman and I believe him to be a valuable resource to responsible hunters. Just my

"Nuff Said"

 

[prohunter]

I have to strongly disagree with LeeChul! I don't think you own much or any land in the country. I say that because of your response. Would you want me to hop your backyard fence and start looking around for something? Or would you want me to come ask your permission first. Remember the landowner is probably dealing with tresspassers' all year round for various reasons. Some legit & some not! So the landowner not knowing who you are or what your doing could get you in trouble withhim or her. Like the warden said:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

What it all boils down to is the hunter needs to be resonsible enough
to not hunt near areas where this type of situation can develop and to
do whatever possible to minimize the situation.[/b]

 

[LeeChul]

So call him and tell him what you are doing. You have to remember this landowners attitude. A decent person would have been willing to meet the person at the property line and help him out. This isn't really an issue of ignoring someones property, its more about an antihunter's bad attitude and neglegence to the fact that this animal needed to be recovered.

As to the quote you made, how many times have you gone hunting and not killed until almost dark, how many times have you gone out and shot a deer crossing a river, it seems inevitable that if you are hunting a piece of property you will eventually come across this situation.

Cheers

 

[Schoettgen]

LeeChull,
If I caught you on my land and you told me I needed to build a better fence, I would tell you to learn how to make a cleaner shot and to get the hell off my land. Now, if you knocked on my door and asked permission I would be more than happy to lend a hand. You need to be carefull how you treat landowners, how You act reflects on all hunters.

 

[LeeChul]

Now if you watch the outdoor channel as much as I do you'd see that 90% of the "well placed shots" from even big bore rifles end with the animal running between 30 and 60 yards plenty of distance to slide under a fence. On top of that, I've heart shot deer with a 30-06 and watched them run nearly 75 yards. What about archery hunting?

Now we don't know the exact details but as he said, the landowner was contacted and he said no to crossing the land, are you suggesting its ok to let the animal just sit there? Clearly we don't see eye to eye Schoettgen, and that's fine. That's what this is all about right? I stand on my position, I'd recover the animal.

 

[VHRAM]

as much as i would like to retrieve the pig I wouldnt want to loose my hunting rights,gear, etc......... I wouldnt do it without permisson.

 

[Schoettgen]

Your right, I don't watch the outdoor channel, but I have spent my fair share of time in the field. Most of the 50 or 60 deer I have shot with a rifle dropped withing 10 yards of where they were hit, I can say the same for hogs and I have killed twice as many of them. I have almost made two dozen achery kills and all have gone under 100 yards also, including bears. You need to make allowances before you shoot. If you think there is a resonable chance that an animal that you shoot will travel 100 yards and you are 10 yards off the fenceline, it is irresponsible to take that shot. Avoid the situation.

 

[LeeChul]

Congratulations on your 50-60 deer and twice as many pigs. It seems I've upset you...oh well... I'll still sleep fine tonight. What you consider an irresponsible shot is also a legal one...

 

[Freedivr2]

Originally posted by Marty@Mar 23 2004, 10:58 AM
I take issue with this statement:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

Is it "reasonable" to break the law and trespass to
do so... I don't think so. However it is morally wrong!

IMO, duly authorized (government) officials should restrict their opinions to the legal interpretation of a law or statute. Unless such a statement is properly presented as an explicite expression of personal belief. (ie. "In my opinion, it is morally wrong to abandon game.")

[/b][/quote]
I don't believe that's what we really want of our law enforcement officials, that is, just to stick to the "letter of the law" at all times and in all situations......what a stinking world it would be if there were no gray areas or that they would have no opinion with regards to exercising good morals, ethics or standards of conduct that are outside the boundries of the law.

I'm sure you've heard of the Hunters (or Sportsmans') code of ethics..... Is that bound by any laws? Nope. Do you personally follow those code of ethics when you hunt or do you just stick to what is in the fish and game code? My hope is that hunters treat the "unwritten laws" with the same respect as those which have a fish and game code number next to them.

Using the logic of black and white, it would be beyond my duties/responsibilities as a Hunter Safety Instructor to teach those code of ethics to students and explain the importance of being a good sportsman to them. The state includes these items, not laws, but moral codes, as part of the Hunter Education course for a good reason. Because gray areas ARE important, sometimes more so than the laws. Is it legal to shoot a buck in the butt? Yep. Is it an ethical shot? Nope.

Should law enforcement officials be given some latitude to operate in the gray area to encourage a positive, constructive outcome of a situation? You bet they should and I'm glad they do vs. the alternative of black and white enforcement.

 

[fpscabs]

Why are we afraid to ask nicely for permission? Most landowners will respect that and if the answer is 'no', call the warden. They will usually help the hunter acting reasonable to collect their game.

In my opinion, just because a shot is legal, does not make it always the right thing to do. When I fish, I usually can take a legal limit of 5 trout home, I usually only take that which will be eaten, whether it is 5 or 0.

 

[Orso]

If I may cut in here... Sorry to take this a little off of the direction it is going but, I was interested in hearing about the "hot pursuit" law mentioned. I was under the impression the animal belonged to the person who actually killed it. Not to the individual who wounded it and is in hot pursuit of it. Thanks F350 for the thread...

As far as the direction this thread had been going in.... I too feel you must ask permission first before crossing the fence, and if the owner says NO, then you have to try and get assistance from either Sherriff or DFG. Legal or not you have to look at the entire situation prior to taking a shot, and if ethically it is wrong to take the shot, because the animal is 10yards to the propperty line, then you may not want to take the shot.

Good thread!!

 

[tony270]

If your house is 300 yards from the downed game, and you can't see or hear me, I'm getting my game, plan and simple. As long as I'm following game that I shot, and as long as I don't do any damage to your property, who will know. That's just what I would do.

 

[Schoettgen]

Originally posted by LeeChul@Mar 24 2004, 09:15 PM
What you consider an irresponsible shot is also a legal one...

Just because a shot is legal does not mean it needs to be taken. Shooting animals on the edge of a cliff, on or around the edge of a fast river, edge of private property, next to a HWY, etc... May be legal, but since we have the ethical obligation to recover what we kill, it is our responsibility as hunters to pass on shots where recovery may not be possible. Things can still go wrong, if they do stay legal and get help from F&G if you need to. If you regularly hunt boarder ground try contacting the landowners ahead of the season and ask if tresspassing would be ok if you ever needed to recover an animal. If they say no, adjust your shooting accordingly. Arguing with a landowner while you are tresspassing for any reason is just about the worst thing you could do. Don't even go there.

 

[Speckmisser]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

If you regularly hunt boarder ground try contacting the landowners ahead of the season and ask if tresspassing would be ok if you ever needed to recover an animal.[/b]

And there it is, right there...

Don't rely on anyone else's word about a landowner, it's still a real good idea (if not your responsibility) to touch base with the neighbors BEFORE the situation arises. You might be surprised how many people will tell you, "So-and-so never lets anyone on their land," without ever actually talking to Mr. So-and-so. When you knock on the door, not asking to hunt, but just asking about the possibility of recovering game if it crosses the line... well, the answer may be different from what you heard.

And sometimes, the rumors are true. Make your choices based on this information. If an incident still occurs, then it's in your best interest to approach it right. This may mean going back to the landowner and telling him what happened, apologize for the intrusion, and ask permission to recover your animal. If he still says no, contact DFG and see if they or the Sherriff's Dept will pitch for you.

All that said, I'll be as honest as anyone and say, if the animal falls within sight of the fence, and I'm way "back of beyond", then I'm probably gonna go grab my animal and get it back over the fence. But, at the same time, I won't go following a blood trail all over someone else's property without permission.

 

[dreaminhogs]

Im all for contacting the land owner to retrieve my game but honestly if my game is in sight I am going to set my gear aside and hop over to get my kill. F350 thanks for contacting the DFG and getting some clarification on this issue. I am all for public officials speaking the way this warden has and I hope his honesty isn't detered by some who frankly need to lighten up.

 

[F350]

Guys,
I can't express how happy I am that this thread has come to good use.
Debating the issues is also a large part of how we learn from each other. I believe that the minute one believes there's nothing left to learn, he is lost.

I am obviously a strong supporter of legal/ethical hunters and more importantly, very concerned about the impression the "Hunting community" makes on the rest of the world. I think it is moreso important to consider the outcome of the shot than actually taking one.

That being said, I'm with Speckmisser on this one. I have crossed the fence line in the way-back part of someones land, got the game, and got the heck outta there. Had I been confronted by a land owner? I would have Humbley apollogized and immediately complied with their wishes. Again, I don't want to add to the bad taste in someones mouth over hunters, that would only hurt the rest of us.

On the same token, I agree that if contact can be made ahead of time with the adjacent land owners, you should do so out of simple respect. Personally, I'd invite him/her to join my group for dinner. Heck! you may just make a new friend.

"Nuff said"

 

[superduty]

Ignorance is no excuse. The best way to debate a topic or someone at that matter, is to educate yourself. That's why I stay quit most of the time. Easier to pick out the ignorant people.

Anyways I agree with F350 on there is nothing to lose only something to gain by discussing this topic. I know I have learned something from it by the research I did and reading others. Personnely I understand that hunters are picked on constantly by IGNORANT people

but I too would be guilty of crossing and retrieving. A pig is the only thing I have ever shot in my life that didn't drop in his tracks and I can understand the debate. I tend to go big though and have less problems shooting all my big game strictly with a model 700 7MM Mag or my model 7 short action ultra mage in 300. You can agree or disagree thats your right but don't expect it to change my mind.

I agree with you prohunter, I would try to exhaust all methods and means available to me at the time to do the write thing.

But if left with no possible contact I would jump.