ms20 or wm2 on board timing

gantley

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one of the links on Jesse's page had noted that the Wal-Mart special MS20 / WM2 has on board timing....  R25 and R26.  in reading the text, one repored R25 was the bleader for timing when in test and R26 was bleader for timing when in auto.  another reported that R26 was for test and R25 for auto...

well...  has anyone just tried swapping the two resisters?  on the camera i have already glued up to the point of no mods, auto will get me about 1 min and 40 seconds before the PIR resets.  test mode resets within seconds.  a little testing on my camera did not lock up the owl unless something kept the PIR locked up in auto for more that 2 minutes or more.

looking for input on this subject.
 

ArkansasElkHunter

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gantly,

Swapping the resistors will only swap the effect of the switch, they both go through the same capacitor.  The only danger in using the Auto or long delay is that as long as the PIR sees motion within the time delay period it will restart the timing cycle keeping the relay engaged.  ie.  1 min timer, motion detected after 59sec, timer resets and keeps relay triggered for another 60sec, and so on and so on.  on a feeder it will probably lock up your camera.  I've been replacing the auto with a 1K to get it to trip real fast, to avoid the delay from preventing multiply shots of the same animal.  I use brians timer for the delay.
 

Tinhorn

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The below is the Correct timing resistors, the other guy who tinkered with the MS20 must have got confused somewhere along the line, not surprising, it gets pretty hairy, trying to follow all the traces, etc.

To expand on ArkansasElkHunter's reply, here are the difference's between Test and Auto mode:
<font face="courier new">

Tech-Talk-Mode Engaged
Long Post Mode Engaged


Things in Commom
1.  C13 (22uf) Timing Capacitor

Auto Mode:
1.  Enable Light Sensor so the Flood Light only comes on in the Dark
2.  Set the "Light On Time" to ~1.5 min's (using R25 (2.2M) in
     conjuntion with C13
3.  Light stays on continuously until there is "NO" movement for
     ~1.5 min's

Test Mode:
1.  Disable Light Sensor so the Flood Light comes on day or night
2.  Set the "Light On Time" to ~4 secs (using R26 (33k) in
      conjuntion with C13
3.  Light stays on continuously until there is "NO" movement for
     ~4 sec's

Comments:
1.  You should disable the light sensor by removing the CDS Cell.  
     It's not calibrated enough to even use as a "Nite-Time-Only"
     feature
2.  Since Light Sensing is disabled, the Switch Postion now only
     switches between R25 or R26.  These can be changed to obtain
     2 different "On Times", if desired.  
3a. Altho 4 seconds is not very long, there is a possibility that
     an animal can reset the MS20's 4 second timer and cause a pix
     to be "Missed" which is why AEH changes the timing resistor
     to 1k,  it create's so quick a time-out, it is highly unlikely
     to miss any subsequent Movement by an animal.
3b. There is a danger of shutting down the Owl PF if the MS20 is in
     Auto Mode because repeated movement within the 1.5 min time
     frame by an animal is definitly possible, especially when the
     cam is set over bait. (The Owl PF will shutdown if it's shutter
     is held down for more than 3 min's)
3c. The Auto Mode could be a "feature" to prevent a single animal or
     group of animals from ripping off a whole roll of film if a
     timer is used between the MS20 and Owl PF.  The timer only
     presses the shutter button a few seconds, regardless of the
     trigger it gets from the PIR





Tech Talk Disengaged
</font>

Tinhorn
 

davered1

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I change all my R26' s to a 220k resistor. This gets me about 10 sec(more like 8.5-9). I found that without a refresh some of the cams weren't triggered long enough to actually take a pic with the "stock" 33k. I had some that would only trigger for about 1-2 sec.

dave
 

Tinhorn

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Dave is right if you "Don't" use a Timer then you want the shutter button to be held in at least 10 seconds by the MS20.  Some Owl PF's take a while to charge up the flash before taking a pix after it's set idle for a few days.  If the shutter is released before the flash is charged, the cam won't snap a pix....

If you "do" use  a timer, like JoeD's or Brian's, etc then this isn't important, the timer takes care of how long the shutter is held in.  These timers can detect a real fast trigger pulse from the PIR.

Tinhorn
 

gantley

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seems i have opened a can or worms here...

if in auto mode, r25 bleads c13 in 1:30 mins after movement stops and in test mode, r26 bleads c13 in 4 seconds period, then swap r26 with r25.

this would cause auto mode, r25 (old r26) to blead c13 in 4 seconds after movement stops and in test mode r26 (old r25) to blead c13 in 1:30 mins.

the object is to use test mode, after swapping r25 and r26, to hold the shuter button closed for 1:30 mins period.  then the pir will reset.  

my owl does not seem to lock up until the shuter button has been held closed for more than 2 or 3 mins.

is this a better description of what i was asking?
 

Tinhorn

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I guess it's a better description but it won't do what you want,  at least I think you think it will not "Retrigger" with movement if you swop resistors and use Test Mode for the 1.5 min's delay.....

It "will" retrigger, the Auto/Test switch only selects which resistor gets connected to C13

Tinhorn
 

davered1

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Gantley,


You CAN use both modes(test/auto) on the board, all you need to do is remove the light sensor.

You want to use the auto mode  but don't think you can, right?
 

marmot

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After hours of reading I picked up on one small hint, in one of the threads, that maybe you guys are buying finished motion sensor lights at Walmart instead of just MS20 sensors. If that's the case, it's hard to believe there has been so much talk about it without someone stating this. Very confusing.

Can someone straighten me out on this please?
 

davered1

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Marmot,

I think they can get just the sensor in the STATES., I can't find them in Canada so I have to buy complete unit ($8 U.S.) .
 

ArkansasElkHunter

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The snesor at walmart by itself is not the right one.  You have to get the one with the fixture for $8.94.   I've saved them in a bag and next time we have a garage sale.  
$1 each -  take all you want.  Might buy a roll of film or two
 

gantley

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well gees guys.  you should have told me a little plainer that i had my head up my....um tail.  somewhere in my mind i had concluded that in test mode the PIR would not triger on movement again until reset.  what a dumb.....

does anyone have a good layout of the MS20 / WM2 circuit layout?  maybe there is a way we can trip out the latching device until c13 is drained...  hey i am cheep.  i am not good at electronic stuff but i love tinkering around anyways.  i have yet to blow up a radio so bad i could not fix it.... ha ha.

i figure the lm324n is a controler for the IR detector/transmiter.  i figure you have to keep the detector powered up and hot, but it sure seem you could isolate the triger on the lm324n (if i have guessed right) until c13 is drained....

some more thoughts.  guys, thanks for keeping this going.  i really appreciate the replys.  i will keep barking in the woods until i figure i can not bark anymore.  then i will just let it lay for a while........sigh.......

73 de KI5LR
 

Tinhorn

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Hi Gantley,

I "Reverse Engineered" the MS20 and drew up this schematic,  I hope you have better luck than I did trying to make it's internal timer "Non-Retriggerable"  

I forgot to note on there that the LM324, pin 4 (Vcc) goes to raw battery voltage.  Actually I didn't notice it did, someone else pointed it out to me (thanx Arch)  If you find any other errors, please let me know

http://www.nightowl.net/~tinhorn/MS20sch.jpg

Tinhorn
 

gantley

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thanks tinhorn.  i am pulling out the only stop i have access to.  a frined of mine, jon N5JA, is a genius about these things.  i can graps some electronic ideals but this one is def over my head.  i have an ideal as to what needs to happen buy very little ideal on how to do it.  that is why i have asked if jon could help me.  with the diagram, we stand a much better chance.  i bother jon about once a year on a project like this.  last year he got off the hook when i fixed my own dentron GLA-1000 amp.  i know what was happening just did not know how to fix it.  then i blunder on cleaning contacts on a relay.  wah-la, problem fixed.  so maybe he will be receptive of this request.....

73 de KI5LR
 

gantley

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Thanks to Tinhorn I have spend two nights not sleeping.  Thanks for the layout.

I have found a point in the circuit that I know I can put a NC relay and control the recharging of the cap that holds the voltage high on the part of the op amp that controls the relay's lock up.  

Now this does not keep the PIR from seeing motion and reporting the movement back to the other parts of the op amp.  HOWEVER this does keep the cap from recharging and will allow the relay to drop out.    I dont care if movement is taking place because i am waiting X long to take another photo anyway. Now of course if the PIR is reporting movement when the relay drops out, we are going to get another cycle of the relay (another photo).  That is what I want because I want timming under the 2 min mark anyway.

If this can be done with a $2 relay, then it can be done cheeper with a transister.

Updates to follow.  I am somewhat limited to what I can do right now.  I am off work on medical leave due to back surgery.  And yes this camera thing is keeping me from going crazy.....

Thanks for putting up with me guys......

73 de KI5LR
 

gantley

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Done deal!  470k, 470, 220k, and a 1m pot resisters.  run one jumper, add a 2n3906 (PNP) transister and a diode and you are in buisness!  had all this junk in my box.  

after going over the circuit, jon and i found a lot of suff on the board that is not used.  take that junk off and you have a nice place to dead bug you delay right on the MS20C / WM2 where you can zip the case up with no problems.....

details to follow when i can add some pics and procedure.
 

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