MS20 Power Reduction Success!

Jon5ja

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hunt4it44,

1.) It's probably not worth doing the mod without replacing the LM324 -- it draws more than half the current.

2.) Yes, a gel-cell and a solar panel will provide plenty of power. But, if you do the low-power mod, a 9V battery will be much cheaper/neater. In fact, it'd be a lot cheaper to pay someone to modify an MS20 for you than to run a gel-cell and solar panel.

3.) Yes, you can still use the opto. The 4.7K is probably still OK for 6V, since some are using 10K with 9V or less. Originally, I was using the PS2501-2 because I had a handful of them. Lately, I've been using PS2501-1 because they only have 4 leads and are easier to wire. Using the PS2501-1, pin 1 is the same; pin 2 connects to the resistor; pins 3 and 4 connect to the camera, 3 to camera ground and 4 to the shutter/refresh wires.

I'd bite the bullet and do the low-power mod. Find a friend/neighbor/ham radio operator that can replace the chip for you. Or, go to Radio Shack and buy a $10 desoldering iron (Catalog # 64-2060), practice a bit with it, and you can unsolder that chip in about 30 seconds.
 

didntseeany

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I bought some resistors today and I'm not sure they are right. I got a pack of 100k-Ohm resistors-1.2 watt, 470-Ohm-1/2 watt, and 150-Ohm 1/2 watt. They were bigger than the ones on my ms20 board. Are these the wrong ones and what should I look for if they are? Keep in mind I'm an electronics idiot.
 

Jon5ja

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If you can physically fit 1/2-watt resistors in to the space they'll work fine, but I normally use 1/4-watt resistors; 1/8 watt resistors will work, too.

Now... regarding the values: those "K's" on the value are important. If you got 470-ohm and 150-ohm resistors instead of 470K and 150K units, you're off by a factor of 1000! If you really did get 470K's and 150K's, the determining factor will be whether you can physically fit them in the space.
 

didntseeany

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Ok I did the low power mods and left my 9 vdc relay in the k1 slot. Now I hear that audible click when I plug the battery in but thats it. Is this normal and how can I tell if its working because I don't have my camera fixed up yet.
 

Jon5ja

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It's normal for it click as it cycles on and off for the first minute or so. Then, it should quit clicking until it senses motion. This should be no different with or without the low power mods.
 

didntseeany

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Uh oh ,then its screwed up. After it warms up it just clicks and clicks and clicks non stop.
 

hunt4it44

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Jon5ja

Many, many, many thanks for your encouragement on making the low power mods to my MS20. I had previously posted that I was concerned that my limited soldering skills would make a mess of changing out the LM324. However, just the opposite occured and things went without a hitch. I also used your suggestion to use the PS2501-1.

Here is the amazing part - This is my first attempt at making a cam - I did the lower power mods, the timer mods, wired the camera and the test LED - and the darn thing actually works!!!! I still need to mount my camera in the case, but when I hook it up to the MS20, and had my kids parade around in front of it, it worked like a charm.

To all those out there who are questioning whether you can build this project - YOU CAN DO IT. I researched these boards, downloaded great step-by-step instructions and it is actually quite easy. My total cost using a Canon Owl PF and MS20 is around $60 (not counting the enclosure which I already had).

Many thanks to all who have posted their great advice on this forum.
 

SIO

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Thanks for all the help earlyer but im still having problems... Modified 2 more MS20's with the low power mods and i have one with 9 volts on R8, 0 volts on pin 1 of U1... I swapped the IC, LM385Z, Q1 and serched til my eyes where sore for a short but no change... The rest of the pins on the IC seem to have the correct values except for pin 14 witch has a steady 8.5 volts... The other unit has all the correct values but continues to power up pin 8 & 14 at uneven times non stop... Please help been trouble shooting them for over a week.
 

Jon5ja

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SIO, I made the following suggestions to someone else who was having problems, but thought I'd post them here in case you didn't see the post. I'd try replacing the components in one step-by-step to see if you can figure out where the problem is creeping in. Here's what I'd do:

First, get the MS20 working the way you want it BEFORE you do the low power mods... make sure it triggers the camera, etc., and doesn't oscillate; test it in the same way (i.e. in the housing, or not) before you do the low power mods as you will once the mods are done.

Second, after everything is working to suit you, replace just the LM324 chip with the TLC27L4CN chip. Test it, and everything should be working just as it was originally. If it's not, you either have a bad (or killed) chip or a solder bridge.

Third, replace D4 with the LM385Z-2.5. If it doesn't work now, you've either got a dead or miswired LM385 or a solder bridge.

Fourth, replace R8 with a 100K resistor (Brown-Black-Yellow-Gold). If it doesn't work now, look for a solder bridge. It is slightly possible (though I've neve seen it) that if you had a sick (damaged) TLC27L4CN it MIGHT work with the factory value for R8 but not with the 100K substitute, but I'd give this a <1% chance. I'd give it another <1% chance that the LM385 was flaky and would work with the factory R8 but not with a 100K.

Fifth, replace R6 and R7 with 470K resistors. If it doesn't work now, look for a solder bridge. Also, there's a slight chance that a sick TLC27L4CN might work with factory R6 & R7 but not with the new values, but it's very unlikely.

Sixth, if it's still working this far, change R4 to 150K. If it doesn't work now, look for a solder bridge. There is a slight possibility that a flaky TLC27L4CN might cause a problem when R4 is increased to 150K but it's unlikely. Also, a leaky Q1 is a possiblilty, but unlikely.

If you follow these steps and test along the way, you'll almost certainly find where the problem creeps in.

Good luck!
Jon
 

Rooter

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I am really interested in trying this power reduction mod, but I prefer to go to Radio Shack to order my parts. Has anyone put together a Radio Shack parts listing so that I can walk in and pull the parts rather than order them from digi-key?

Thanks,

Rooter
 

Nytro69

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ditto on the radio shack part numbers for me just easier to shop near home.
 

Jon5ja

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Sorry, but it ain't that easy :) Radio Shack might be able to order the parts for you, but I expect you'd pay a lot more for them than getting them from one of the indicated sources, and you'd have to wait anyway.

Of the places from which I commonly order parts, Digi-Key is the only one (as far as I know) that carries all of the necessary components.

Mouser carries everything but the LM385Z-2.5.
Jameco carries the LM385Z-2.5, but not the TLC27L4 or TS27L4 op amp chip.
JDR Microdevices also carries the LM385Z-2.5, but not the op amp chip.

I'm sure some of the larger distributors would have everything, but I'm not sure it'd be more economically feasible in small quantities than the suppliers mentioned above.

If you can wait until January, ****** should be back open and will be your best bet.
 

SIO

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Thanks Jon, for the advise and the off I may take you up on that. I don't understand how my first one now works & the second 2 dosen't. But i fixing to try what you told me to do to trouble shoot. I had already swapped out the extra resistors R4, R6, R7 and it still doing the same. Sometimes it will go 3-4 minutes and then fire off several times just very unstable. Im just monitoring Pin 14 on the IC when testing them I guess this is OK. Also can the opto couplers handle 12 volts cause I've got 2 of them that are out now.

Thanks again
 

Jon5ja

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SIO,

The optos shouldn't be concerned with what voltage you're running the system from as long as the current to them is limited to less than 50 mA. With 12 volts and a 4.7K resistor in series with the LED half of the opto, they'd be seeing only about 2.5 mA.

You ARE using 4.7K (that's 4700 ohms) resistors and not 4.7 ohm resistors, right? Yellow-Violet-Red-Gold is 4.7K and what you want.
 

wtailp&y

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Just wanted to say thanks. Completed my second cam the first one was using a fieldpix board (works great) the second one is the MS20 with jons power reduction mods. Right now i am experimenting with taping off the fresnal in the basement. I think my labs are getting tired of getting their pictures taken. thanks again
 

hilljec

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Could you just clip out all that isn't needed as shown and still leave the 3 parts that you replaced? Would this still get you any power reduction without replacing any parts, but just clipping others out?
 

Jon5ja

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Most of the stuff removed has to do with the 120-volt circuitry. Mainly, we're just getting that stuff out of the way. About 1 mA is being drawn by the LM324 op-amp chip, and most of the remain 0.6 mA is being drawn by the voltage regulator circuit (the zener diode and its pull-up resistor).

Sorry, but clipping out the other stuff isn't going to help much.
 

Otto

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MS20 low power mod simple wiring diagram for canon owl with SPST & DPDT switches.
Check Ammo Can album on webshots page.

Change value of r-26 for different delays with switch in test position.
220K = about 10 seconds I believe.
 

t-may

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Where can I find the ms20 motion sensor. I have been to Wal-mart and they have change brand, Lowes don't have
it in the Regent model. And thanks for all the help on this
site you guys rock, on this camera stuff. I have 2 home made camera now and I would like to try the new low power ms20 model.
 


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