- Thread starter MuskegJR
- Start date
Too late...probably not. Some doubt they will ever rid that island of every last pig. They killed 4000 pigs now and have a 97% eradication rate. Even if they had a 99% eradication rate, that means 40 would live. If that were the case it doesn't take a genius to see that they would come right back after the gunners left.
I learned something new though, burial grounds being disturbed is a pretty good reason to get rid of them off the island, however hunters could control the population and keep the damage down.
I wonder if they checked to see if there were indians buried underneath the air strip they laid down, and how many indian graves were violated when they cut those roads that are all over the place there. How deep do pigs dig, and how deep did the indians bury their dead?
Sounds like more red herrrings, they just want hunters off that island. When they start getting rid of all the other man made crap put there I will support the efforts to return the environment to its natural state. Until then, this is just a special interest group with an agenda to rid the islands of hunting, and they are making up every reason possible to attain their goal. A goal which many believe is unattainable, and everyone can see it is very expensive.
I wonder how much it would take to get rid of every orchard, every house, every dock and trace man has put on that island. $10 million? $20 million? $50 million? They don't ever bother saying they will never try to finish the job, they just try to get the public to believe the island is a mess and it will all be solved by killing off the pigs.
I don't remember any legislation that told the truth: that island has been altered by man for over 100 years and there is almost no way to return it to its natural state without spending a huge amount of money. The island foxes and local mice have lived through ranching for all this time, and there was never a problem. The difference: before people regulated the hogs through hunting, and now they don't want any hunters keeping the balance right anymore. Get rid of the hogs, fine. Get rid of eveything else too, or be publicly acknowledged that you are a hypocritical special interest group who will stop at nothing to limit the rights of others.
Pigs are part of the historical development of this state, I take pride in being able to hunt them. There are freeways and cities everywhere in this fine state too. I don't want to get rid of them though, and they do more damage to limiting wildlife and altering the way things were than any other factor. They are historical and should be allowed to stay. In my opinion, in this case, so should the pigs. Unless they are returning the island to a completely natural state, then everything must go.
One or the other, that is all I ask.
Rancho Loco
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Unless you have proof that they wanted hunters off the island, your just throwing up more red herrings.
And your demands of the NPS to return the island to your standards (or do nothing) wouldn't be feasible in the management of Yosemite, Yellowstone, or any other National Park.
Orchards, airstrips, and houses are all passive...They don't run around breeding like rabbits and tearing everything up. What's next - are you going to demand that lost anchors all be recovered in the waters around the island - and if not, it just shows that they're anti-hunter?
Invasive exotic species are hell on island ecosystems. Cats, rats, pigs and goats are a huge problem on islands all over the Pacific, and sport hunting will not control their numbers.
Eradication is the only answer.
And your demands of the NPS to return the island to your standards (or do nothing) wouldn't be feasible in the management of Yosemite, Yellowstone, or any other National Park.
Orchards, airstrips, and houses are all passive...They don't run around breeding like rabbits and tearing everything up. What's next - are you going to demand that lost anchors all be recovered in the waters around the island - and if not, it just shows that they're anti-hunter?
Invasive exotic species are hell on island ecosystems. Cats, rats, pigs and goats are a huge problem on islands all over the Pacific, and sport hunting will not control their numbers.
Eradication is the only answer.
Rancho:
You have not made an argument that makes sense to me yet, but I am hoping...
#1. The animals that are in danger now (foxes and mice) have been on that island for over 100 years and have not gone extinct in that time, they managed to live with the pigs. They managed to live with sheep, and everything else the settlers brought to that island. Therefore there never really was a problem and there still isn't one if things are maintained the way they once were.
#2. When they stopped putting on enough hunts and the pigs multiplied that became the problem, the NPS created its own probolem. How convenient.
#3. There is no evidence that the pigs can ever be eradicated. The company itself does not claim 100% eradication (read over your own post from a previous thread). If there are just a few survivors, the population will come back.
So $5 mil was spent on lowering pig populations, hunters could have done that and made money for CA instead of it costing the taxpayers.
Hunters are ineffective? I bet Bayed Solid could bring back pigs every single run he made on that island.
You say I throw up red herrings. You are misunderstanding my arguments, and not refuting them. I am attacking the method these enviro freaks used to get this legislation passed. They made statements, that mainly made it look like these pigs are the core problem on that island. There is no problem if you keep hunting the pigs.
Do I care if they remove all the junk off the island? No I don't. However if they use a vision of some deserted island with little foxes being killed off by mean pigs, and the public buys it and allows them to attempt to eradicate the pigs, I want to see that prestine restored island. If they use it as an argument they should be held accountable. What happened to FALSE ADVERTISING or MISLEADING THE PUBLIC anyway? Isn't that still illegal?
When trying to promote this eradication, they never stated the island was so developed it could never be returned to the natural state. If they said the island is a lost cause in returning it to a natural state, and that the pigs are messing things up as they always have but we don't want to allow people to hunt them anymore and want $5 million to eradicate them, but we will do nothing else to fix the island, do you think it would have passed? The red herrings I am throwing out are FACTS that they do not want the public to know, and for good reason. I WILL NOT STOP TELLING PEOPLE THE WAY IT REALLY IS ON THAT ISLAND. It will never be natural, there is no reason to eradicate the pigs. They can be regulated much more effectively with public hunting, as it has been done for 100+ years.
I have news for you: This state will never be natural any more. The roads, cities, fences, invasive species, etc have done the damage. The Golden Grizz is dead. The wolves have been removed. Lots of the animal populations that live in this state are not living in their normal habitat. The best habitats have been inhabited by people. It is what it is, let's try to regulate and maintain what we have. Let's do it in an effecient and resonable way. If that means the NPS has to allow hunting on its little island holding, even if they don't have to in any other of its holdings in the state, then that should be done. Don't they have a similar problem with exotic deer near Hearst Castle? They don't allow people to hunt those things either, even though they are a problem.
This is about peole wanting to stop hunting, that is all. They will never get those foxes safe, unless they remove them from that island. It is a trapped species, with similar genetics from thousands of years of breeding, the wrong strain of bird flu could wipe them all out in 3 months.
Who says the foxes will live through this eradication process anyway? They may already be dead from all this activity, the island overrun with hunting dogs, rotting pigs everywhere, they could catch disease and die off. One does not have to completely kill off every single fox to make the population die, just narrow the gene pool so there is little variation and the foxes will weaken and die, it has happened with deer in other states that stopped hunting altogether with catastrophic results, massive die offs, shallow gene pools, little food and more disease, then complete die offs to genetically challenged offspring.
Perhaps the eradication method that you support would completely kill off the foxes by itself. Nobody ever discusses that when they talk about eradication. That island is pretty hellish if you are wildlife living on it right now, hellicopters, hunting dogs, traps and people wandering and all. It puts a lot of stress on those little critters that people are trying to protect.
If they use the argument that it is not as it naturally was, which I have heard so many times, then they must remove all other evidence of man, or be hypocrites, who selectively decide what will and what will not remain on that island.
I fish that island, it looks stupid. Anacapa with its light house looks less developed than the roads, docks, airport, buildings and orchards on Santa Cruz. If they are not going to get rid of the rest, why not allow hunters to regulate the hogs?
"Proof they just want hunters to go away." Can you give me proof that the Nazis wanted the Jews to go away? They can always deny. Anyone can deny.
BTW, anchors rust, and disintegrate and disappear. Have you ever even been to this island? You apparantly don't know much about metal and salt water...
"Invasive exotic species are hell on island ecosystems. Cats, rats, pigs and goats are a huge problem on islands all over the Pacific, and sport hunting will not control their numbers."
It worked for 100 years, and now it doesn't. BS.
BTW, here in CA not too many National Parks allow hunting of any species. My plan would not work in any of the NPS areas here in CA because they are Preservationists, and would not allow it. NPS in CA seems to have a fetish with taking things over, and going Preservationist on their policies. The bottom line is, that island has been completely messed up for 100+ years, and the only thing they want to do is stop hunting the pigs with citizens and start massive eradication efforts that will cost lots of money to the taxpayers, and it will probably have to be done multiple times. Pretty "selective" in what they want done if you ask me.
"We want the pigs dead, but we want New Zealanders to do it, you CA hunters can't do it. It will be expensive. It may take multiple times. We don't want hunters to pay to do it, we want to pay to have the same exact thing done."
I am not sure they are even anti hunting in this case, I think someone has special $ interests involved in this and made a lot of money and will continue to do so in the future...
As I said, they created this by not continuing the hunting programs on the island. Now they pay someone $5 million to kill off the pigs but there is a fair chance they cannot be completely eradicated. Someone just got rich. This whole thing stinks. Can I prove it, no. All this coincidence is starting to look pretty incriminating...to me.
P.S. Get ready, I talked to a main DFG agent about this island situation, and he says the same is coming for Santa Rosa. NPS has a policy, they don't like hunters in their domains. When necessary they do use eradication programs, but not hunters generally speaking. He said he talked with NPS till he was sick and could not convince them what an opportunity they are blowing. They are keeping policy for policy's sake and not really looking at what would work in this particular situation.
I am so sick of this, it is a huge conspiracy and so well engineered you have to really look at what is being done with a critical eye to see the stupidity of it all.
You have not made an argument that makes sense to me yet, but I am hoping...
#1. The animals that are in danger now (foxes and mice) have been on that island for over 100 years and have not gone extinct in that time, they managed to live with the pigs. They managed to live with sheep, and everything else the settlers brought to that island. Therefore there never really was a problem and there still isn't one if things are maintained the way they once were.
#2. When they stopped putting on enough hunts and the pigs multiplied that became the problem, the NPS created its own probolem. How convenient.
#3. There is no evidence that the pigs can ever be eradicated. The company itself does not claim 100% eradication (read over your own post from a previous thread). If there are just a few survivors, the population will come back.
So $5 mil was spent on lowering pig populations, hunters could have done that and made money for CA instead of it costing the taxpayers.
Hunters are ineffective? I bet Bayed Solid could bring back pigs every single run he made on that island.
You say I throw up red herrings. You are misunderstanding my arguments, and not refuting them. I am attacking the method these enviro freaks used to get this legislation passed. They made statements, that mainly made it look like these pigs are the core problem on that island. There is no problem if you keep hunting the pigs.
Do I care if they remove all the junk off the island? No I don't. However if they use a vision of some deserted island with little foxes being killed off by mean pigs, and the public buys it and allows them to attempt to eradicate the pigs, I want to see that prestine restored island. If they use it as an argument they should be held accountable. What happened to FALSE ADVERTISING or MISLEADING THE PUBLIC anyway? Isn't that still illegal?
When trying to promote this eradication, they never stated the island was so developed it could never be returned to the natural state. If they said the island is a lost cause in returning it to a natural state, and that the pigs are messing things up as they always have but we don't want to allow people to hunt them anymore and want $5 million to eradicate them, but we will do nothing else to fix the island, do you think it would have passed? The red herrings I am throwing out are FACTS that they do not want the public to know, and for good reason. I WILL NOT STOP TELLING PEOPLE THE WAY IT REALLY IS ON THAT ISLAND. It will never be natural, there is no reason to eradicate the pigs. They can be regulated much more effectively with public hunting, as it has been done for 100+ years.
I have news for you: This state will never be natural any more. The roads, cities, fences, invasive species, etc have done the damage. The Golden Grizz is dead. The wolves have been removed. Lots of the animal populations that live in this state are not living in their normal habitat. The best habitats have been inhabited by people. It is what it is, let's try to regulate and maintain what we have. Let's do it in an effecient and resonable way. If that means the NPS has to allow hunting on its little island holding, even if they don't have to in any other of its holdings in the state, then that should be done. Don't they have a similar problem with exotic deer near Hearst Castle? They don't allow people to hunt those things either, even though they are a problem.
This is about peole wanting to stop hunting, that is all. They will never get those foxes safe, unless they remove them from that island. It is a trapped species, with similar genetics from thousands of years of breeding, the wrong strain of bird flu could wipe them all out in 3 months.
Who says the foxes will live through this eradication process anyway? They may already be dead from all this activity, the island overrun with hunting dogs, rotting pigs everywhere, they could catch disease and die off. One does not have to completely kill off every single fox to make the population die, just narrow the gene pool so there is little variation and the foxes will weaken and die, it has happened with deer in other states that stopped hunting altogether with catastrophic results, massive die offs, shallow gene pools, little food and more disease, then complete die offs to genetically challenged offspring.
Perhaps the eradication method that you support would completely kill off the foxes by itself. Nobody ever discusses that when they talk about eradication. That island is pretty hellish if you are wildlife living on it right now, hellicopters, hunting dogs, traps and people wandering and all. It puts a lot of stress on those little critters that people are trying to protect.
If they use the argument that it is not as it naturally was, which I have heard so many times, then they must remove all other evidence of man, or be hypocrites, who selectively decide what will and what will not remain on that island.
I fish that island, it looks stupid. Anacapa with its light house looks less developed than the roads, docks, airport, buildings and orchards on Santa Cruz. If they are not going to get rid of the rest, why not allow hunters to regulate the hogs?
"Proof they just want hunters to go away." Can you give me proof that the Nazis wanted the Jews to go away? They can always deny. Anyone can deny.
BTW, anchors rust, and disintegrate and disappear. Have you ever even been to this island? You apparantly don't know much about metal and salt water...
"Invasive exotic species are hell on island ecosystems. Cats, rats, pigs and goats are a huge problem on islands all over the Pacific, and sport hunting will not control their numbers."
It worked for 100 years, and now it doesn't. BS.
BTW, here in CA not too many National Parks allow hunting of any species. My plan would not work in any of the NPS areas here in CA because they are Preservationists, and would not allow it. NPS in CA seems to have a fetish with taking things over, and going Preservationist on their policies. The bottom line is, that island has been completely messed up for 100+ years, and the only thing they want to do is stop hunting the pigs with citizens and start massive eradication efforts that will cost lots of money to the taxpayers, and it will probably have to be done multiple times. Pretty "selective" in what they want done if you ask me.
"We want the pigs dead, but we want New Zealanders to do it, you CA hunters can't do it. It will be expensive. It may take multiple times. We don't want hunters to pay to do it, we want to pay to have the same exact thing done."
I am not sure they are even anti hunting in this case, I think someone has special $ interests involved in this and made a lot of money and will continue to do so in the future...
As I said, they created this by not continuing the hunting programs on the island. Now they pay someone $5 million to kill off the pigs but there is a fair chance they cannot be completely eradicated. Someone just got rich. This whole thing stinks. Can I prove it, no. All this coincidence is starting to look pretty incriminating...to me.
P.S. Get ready, I talked to a main DFG agent about this island situation, and he says the same is coming for Santa Rosa. NPS has a policy, they don't like hunters in their domains. When necessary they do use eradication programs, but not hunters generally speaking. He said he talked with NPS till he was sick and could not convince them what an opportunity they are blowing. They are keeping policy for policy's sake and not really looking at what would work in this particular situation.
I am so sick of this, it is a huge conspiracy and so well engineered you have to really look at what is being done with a critical eye to see the stupidity of it all.
Rancho Loco
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Conspiracy?
OoooooKay..
Well, one thing I've learned from the internet is you can't reason or discuss issues with conspiracy theorists, because all evidence, facts, positions, and arguments contrary to their opinion justs points to proof of the conspiracy.
Have a good one.
OoooooKay..
Well, one thing I've learned from the internet is you can't reason or discuss issues with conspiracy theorists, because all evidence, facts, positions, and arguments contrary to their opinion justs points to proof of the conspiracy.
Have a good one.
Nice little stab there Rancho. Haven't seen you attempt to refute any arguments so I take it that you simply want to retain your opinions and not think about their validity. NP, just don't read any more of my posts cuz I am not going to stop telling people the way it really is out there.
If you don't think things are political, I don't see how you made it this far, but whatever works for you in Rancho Land.
Have yourself a good one too.
lolololol
By the way scr83jp, Yeah it almost seems like they try to put a national or statewide policy on a specialized situation and it backfired...kinda like they are doing on Santa Cruz...unless someone is on the $ take.
Anytime someone has a problem and tries to apply generic policy to a very specialized situation it is a conspiracy. A conspiracy to uphold the status quo, stay in the box, don't really look at the problem, just apply some ridiculous policy from some other thing and voila, When working for the government, nobody gets in trouble for attempting to uphold the general rules...but if you actually try to fix something...and step outside of the comfortable book of acceptable policies...well that is a different story. I work for a school district and see it thousands of times a year. Millions of dollars wasted doing the same stuff. What a joke.
If you don't think things are political, I don't see how you made it this far, but whatever works for you in Rancho Land.
Have yourself a good one too.
lolololol
By the way scr83jp, Yeah it almost seems like they try to put a national or statewide policy on a specialized situation and it backfired...kinda like they are doing on Santa Cruz...unless someone is on the $ take.
Anytime someone has a problem and tries to apply generic policy to a very specialized situation it is a conspiracy. A conspiracy to uphold the status quo, stay in the box, don't really look at the problem, just apply some ridiculous policy from some other thing and voila, When working for the government, nobody gets in trouble for attempting to uphold the general rules...but if you actually try to fix something...and step outside of the comfortable book of acceptable policies...well that is a different story. I work for a school district and see it thousands of times a year. Millions of dollars wasted doing the same stuff. What a joke.
Rancho Loco
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (scr83jp @ Mar 26 2006, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Ummmm....It's not the US Postal Service, it's the National Park Service. (NPS)
Ummmm....It's not the US Postal Service, it's the National Park Service. (NPS)
My mistake I refer to them as the united states park service but I was learning about Park Service blunders back in 1961 at the Univ of AZ while pursuing a bs degree in wildlife mgt and nothing has changed they're still blundering and messing up everything they get involved with,they haven't learned "if it ain't broke don't fix it".They've killed off flora and fauna in the Mojave National Preserve by removing all of the ranching water sources that all life had been depending on for over 100 yrs,last summer the PS wouldn't use available heavy equipment to stop a major vegetation fire,allow the use of phoschek in wilderness areas but they used it to save a rangers house letting the rest of the ranch homes burn and the major pinion juniper habitat for mule deer was destroyed,I have friends who were there when the lightning started the fire so they witnessed the destruction.
This is the same crap they are pulling with the coastal fishing too.
These misguided well intentioned uninformed nonscientific activists are again spinning the facts for their own purposes. Thats why they have succeeded because they have there people in positions of power.
They are also exterminating wild turkeys in NPS areas claiming they are exotic when turkey skeletal remains have been continuously pulled out of La Brea and other areas. With that said they managed to stop new relaeases.
Anybody going Salmon Fishing this year? The folks up in Wash & Oregon have decided not to open it this year but it's ok for long liners and other commercial interests.
Just for the heck of it, go on over to Mill Creek Ranger station and after browsing around the brochure rack a bit start asking about hunting. I did and received a lecture on how $^**%# it is and hunters are from the nice uniformed woman from Forest Falls behind the desk then a long 5 to 7 minute wait for the ranger to acknowledge me and state in a low voice that hunting is very controversial around these parts as if it's like bootlegging or something.
Then once you collect the maps of areas open to hunting closed to hunting etc; and you run into another ranger further up the hill you get whole different story on why she has closed that particular area to hunting even though it's not sown on any maps or closure notices.
Then.... you can start to figure out whats really going on.
I went again this year to the ranger station and got the same off handed comments but this time theranger went into the back area and didn't come back out. When I politely stood my ground I did get a half hearted back handed aknwoledgment that it was my right (at least for a little while longer) to hunt & fish for recreation.
These people that are soooo fond of the Disney anthropomorphic view of nature and animals so caring and giving to animal and natures causes when not a dime of the funds ever really goes to helping any animal only to fund lawyers at the trough to stop what they don't understand and bilk the Gov't for more of our money.
These misguided well intentioned uninformed nonscientific activists are again spinning the facts for their own purposes. Thats why they have succeeded because they have there people in positions of power.
They are also exterminating wild turkeys in NPS areas claiming they are exotic when turkey skeletal remains have been continuously pulled out of La Brea and other areas. With that said they managed to stop new relaeases.
Anybody going Salmon Fishing this year? The folks up in Wash & Oregon have decided not to open it this year but it's ok for long liners and other commercial interests.
Just for the heck of it, go on over to Mill Creek Ranger station and after browsing around the brochure rack a bit start asking about hunting. I did and received a lecture on how $^**%# it is and hunters are from the nice uniformed woman from Forest Falls behind the desk then a long 5 to 7 minute wait for the ranger to acknowledge me and state in a low voice that hunting is very controversial around these parts as if it's like bootlegging or something.
Then once you collect the maps of areas open to hunting closed to hunting etc; and you run into another ranger further up the hill you get whole different story on why she has closed that particular area to hunting even though it's not sown on any maps or closure notices.
Then.... you can start to figure out whats really going on.
I went again this year to the ranger station and got the same off handed comments but this time theranger went into the back area and didn't come back out. When I politely stood my ground I did get a half hearted back handed aknwoledgment that it was my right (at least for a little while longer) to hunt & fish for recreation.
These people that are soooo fond of the Disney anthropomorphic view of nature and animals so caring and giving to animal and natures causes when not a dime of the funds ever really goes to helping any animal only to fund lawyers at the trough to stop what they don't understand and bilk the Gov't for more of our money.
