Question for Archilochus

reylamb

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Your not so basic timer would be a great addition to my cams.  I have reviewed the schematics, and built 2 of them.  Here is my problem, the relay never opens after it is originally tripped.  It just stays closed all the time.  Any ideas as to what I did wrong?
 



Archilochus

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2001
Messages
1,285
Reaction score
0
Hi reylamb,
I'll look over the schematics and see if I can come up with something.

Archilochus
 

reylamb

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Do you have the complete schematic on this circuit?  I noticed on an earlier thread that you left out the voltage regulator, and I think that is probably my problem.  

If you have the complete circuit, could you email it to me at reylamb@yahoo.com.

Thanks
 

Archilochus

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2001
Messages
1,285
Reaction score
0
Hi raylamb,
I wrote the following long-winded bit before seeing your second post - Yeah, not using a voltage regulator could well be the problem.  But see below for an error in the schematic that I found.  I've uploaded a modified schematic to my web-site including the regulator and error correction.  See text of page for regulator part#.

Good Luck!,
Archilochus

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Just some possibilities:
1) I didn't show a voltage regulator in the schematic because I couldn't fit it all on the screen.  The circuit should be powered from the output of a low-drop, micropower regulator (for maximum efficiency)  Use at least 10uF decoupling caps at input & output of regulaor.  The relays should be returned to the "raw" un-regulated battery input voltage.  The 'noise' of the relays turning on and off could be retriggering the 4047 timers "U6" and "U7" which drive the relays if you did not use a regulator.
2) ***Found an error in the schematics*** - I forgot to include diodes across the relay coils.  Each relay should have a reverse diode across its coil to supress high reverse voltage spikes when the relay turns off.  If you did not use the diodes on the relay coils due to my mistake, this could be causing the problem.  If you put diodes across the coils and the problem persists, either "Q1" or "Q2" might have been damaged.  Try replacing them.
3) The ICs used in the circuit are static sensitive.  I zapped a 4047 once when building one of these circuits and it did exactly what you describe - once triggered its output would stay "HIGH" and keep the relays turned on.  Took me quite some time to track that one down.
4) The 1uF timing capacitors at the 4047s "U6" & "U7"should be *non-polarized* !!  Use a few caps in parallel rather than an aluminum or tantalum electolytic type.  Don't know what will happen if polarized types are used, but the data sheets for the part states not to use polarized types.
**UPDATE** The timing cap values should be as follows: For "U6" replace the 1uF with ~0.47uF

Power and ground pins on the ICs are not shown in the schematic - I'll have to fix that.  For all the 40xx ICs in the circuit, ground is the lower left (pin #7 or 8) and positive is the upper right (pin #14 or 16) , when looking at the IC with pin #1 in the upper left.  Double check all wiring and pinouts of the IC's - The IC pin #'s on that schematic are a bit blurry.  I do have the original Windraft < http://www.ivex.com > file of the schematic which is much more legible.  Check all component values.  Check condition of batteries.
It's best to try this circuit out on a breadboard to become familiar with its operation before actually soldering it all together.  Searching for problems is made easier if you have a logic probe or a 'scope.  Try checking the inputs to the gates ("G&quot of transistors  "Q1" & "Q2" to see if these inputs are staying "HIGH"   If either stays "HIGH" for more than a few seconds when the circuit is triggered, somthing is either retriggering the 4047's, or one or both are fried.  With only a meter or a logic probe, it is sometimes difficult to determine the state of an input.  If the input is oscillating for some reason, this could appear as a level "HIGH" or "LOW" on a logic probe or meter.
 

reylamb

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
I did put the diode in, but do not have the voltage regulator.  I think that will solve the problem.

Just for the heck of it, could you send the original WIndraft file?  I have Wndraft, and that would help.

Thanks for you help on this one.
 

reylamb

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Well, I put in the voltage regulator, and now the relay closes and opens as it is supposed to.  Now the problem is the relay trips just as if the timer circuit did not exist at all.  Every time I waive my hand in front of the PIR (RS 49-425) it trips with no delay.  Could one of the chips have fried?  I have an antistat wrist device and an antistat floor that I work on.
I got the power on the ICs, and the gate for Q2 goes from low to high and back within a few seconds.

I am not using the LED part of the schematic, so I am not using that part of the circuit at this time.  

Any other ideas as to what it could be?
 

glen71

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2001
Messages
110
Reaction score
0
Archilochus - I hope this is not deemed off topic. Different questions, same timer circuit:

Do you have an estimated cost for the components required for your "not so simple timer circuit"? Is there a material list available? I am not very familiar with electronic components and am having trouble figuring out exactly what I need.

Could a self-powered interval timer be used in place of a day/night sensor in your circuit? I am thinking of one like Richard Webb posted about from Intermatic.

(Edited by glen71 at 8:51 pm on Aug. 15, 2001)
 

Archilochus

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2001
Messages
1,285
Reaction score
0
Hi raylamb,
Just to clarify... when you say you're not using the LED, does that mean just the LED, or are you also not using "relay1" and "Q1"??  If you followed the text on the web-site and tied the 1/2 & full shutter contacts together at "relay2" and eliminated "relay1",  welllll..... looks like I goofed again on that one .... boy is my face RED!  That won't work too well!  You'd have no indicator when switched to "setup"  I drew this schematic as I was working on different versions of the circuit and I sort of mixed the various versions up a bit.  I'll have to see what I can do to correct the error.
Anyway, using either one or two relays, the base of "Q2" should only go HIGH for a few seconds and then stay low for as long as the selected "no picture" time.  Since your relay closes every time motion is detected, it sounds like you're running the circuit in "setup" (check the wiring at the "setup/run" switch "S2" ) and might have the output of either "U6" or "U7" wired wrong.
To test:  Check the "com" output of the rotary switch "SW1" (or the selected output from "U2" )  This output should be HIGH when the circuit is ready to take a pic, and fall LOW when motion is detected and remain LOW for the duration of the "no picture" time - then return HIGH again after the "no picture" time has elapsed (when this "com" output is low, triggering is disabled)    If this is working properly, then the problem lies with the wiring of "U6" or "U7"  If you get only a brief LOW period from the "com" output of "SW1"  then the outputs from the 4020 "U2" are probably  wired wrong - they are layed out in a very confusing manner.
I'd guess that your ICs are OK since you're getting a few seconds of relay closure each time motion is detected.  I suspect some mislaid wiring at either the "setup/run" switch or the 4020 "U2" or maybe "U6" or "U7"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
glen71 .........I've been meaning to upload some parts lists for the various circuits, but time keeps escaping me...I'll make a post when I get it finished.
As for using an external timer to disable the circuit...If you check the schematic you'll see at at pin#1 of "U1A" that you can pull this pin LOW to disable the circuit.  As I understand it from Richard Webbs posts the Intermatic timer has a little motor that turns a switch on and off.  Just wire it up so the switch pulls the pin#1 low during the disable period.

Archilochus
 

glen71

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2001
Messages
110
Reaction score
0
Archilochus - Since I am essentially ignorant of electronics, to pull the pin "low" would I open the switch or close it?
 

reylamb

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
The way I am currently testing the circuit, I am not using switch S2, I am pulling directly from the sensor.  Also, I am not using U8C, U1A, U6, Q1, or Relay 1 since I am not using the setup portion of the circuit, or the day night portion.  I am working on another board right now, so I will let you know.

One other question.  What is the polarity on the .22 cap for U4?
 

Archilochus

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2001
Messages
1,285
Reaction score
0
Hi reylamb, glen71,
reylamb....I'll review the circuit with that in mind, see if I notice anything.  I use non-polarized caps at "U4" - actually 3 caps in parallel, 2x 0.1uF and 1x 0.022uF  The ST data sheet for this part does not specify polarity, so I thought it best to go with non-polarized parts.

glen71.....I don't own an Intermatic timer, but I'm guessing that the motorized switch is a simple ON/OFF type switch (might ask Richard Webb about that)  If it is just an ON/OFF switch, connect one pin of the swicth to the *regulated* positive voltage of my timer circuit, the other pin of the switch to pin#1 of "U1A".  Also connect pin#1 of "U1A" to ground through a 220,000 ohm resistor (this is different than the schematic on my web-site)  When the Intermatic timer turns "ON" the switch will close and pull pin#1 of "U1A" HIGH and enable the circuit.  When the Intermatic timer turns OFF, the switch will open, pin#1 of "U1A" will be pulled LOW to ground by the 220,000ohm resistor and the circuit will disable.

Archilochus
 

dharter

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 7, 2001
Messages
83
Reaction score
0
I was thinking about adding a refresh timer to one of my cameras.  I was wondering what are the electrical specifications for the Canon Owl PF date.  I know there are 3 wires that I have to work with.  One for  the shutter and the other for the refresh.  Do you know what the internal circuitry is inside the canon owl pf date for these 2 leads?  It seems that people have been using relays.  I thought maybe of using transistor or optoelectronic switches.  Whether that would work, would depend on the voltage and internal circuitry inside the owl.
 

dharter

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 7, 2001
Messages
83
Reaction score
0
ZI was also wondering how often do you need to refresh the canon owl pf date?
 

reylamb

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Arch, thanks for the help.  I have built another one and this one is doing something different still.  On U4 pins 9,  and 10 go from 4V down to 1V, and right back up to 4V, and constant 3V on 11, with nothing ever on pin 12 .  9 & 10  just keep bouncing back and forth causing the clock to continuously trip.  Nothing ever appears on pin 11 of U2, and pin 10 of U2 just bounces like the pins on U4.

Any ideas on this one.  So far this has totally puzzelled a couple of broadcast engineers with extensive electrical backgrounds.

Oh yeah, did you get my email?
 

Archilochus

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2001
Messages
1,285
Reaction score
0
Hi reylamb,
"U4" is an ocsillator/counter.  It provides the circuit with a time base of ~2Hz.  You're 'seeing' the frequency at pins 9 & 10.  Pin 11 actually has an AC voltage riding on the DC voltage - Sounds like the part is working properly except that the voltages at pins 9 & 10 should swing all the way from ground to Vcc with each cycle.  What are you using to check the circuit?  A regular meter (analog or digital) might not react fast enough to read the full voltage swing (mine does not - I have to use my 'scope)  What is your circuits operating voltage?

Pin 12 of "U4" is a reset.  This is held to ground (enabled) by the "Q" output of "U6"  This pin should only go "HIGH" when the circuit is triggered by detected motion or when the counter - see below - generates a refresh pulse.

The counter portion of "U4" periodically triggers "U6"  (every 8 minutes) and initiates a 1/2 shutter press which refreshes the flash and eliminates the shutter delay that occurs if the Owl cams sit more than ~15 minutes.   I chose 8 minutes because the delay happens faster in cold weather.  Whenever "U4" triggers "U6" and starts a 1/2 shutter "refresh" pulse, the "Q" output of "U6" then resets the counter in "U4" by pulling "U4" pin #12 HIGH - starting the timing cycle over again.
>>>>
I just checked my e-mail and got your message.  You're looking for a circuit that simply generates a brief shutter closure and an adjustable time between pictures  - correct??  No "refresh" for the flash, no day/night disable or optional external inputs, no 1/2 shutter "set-up" indicator?? -   Dang!  ruins all the fun!!
I think I might have a circuit already made that does only the shutter closure and "no picture" timer.  Almost the same circuit but with a few of the ICs removed.  I'll have to dust off my neolithic PC and see if it's still in there.

Archilochus
 

reylamb

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Thats it.  Just the shutter closure, and the time delay.  I do not like the 555s, and I still want to have the time delay options that the 4020 provides.  If you have a schematic already drawn, just email it to me at reylamb@yahoo.com.

BTW, I did make the full circuit, and it works fine, I just do not need all that "fun stuff."
 


Top Bottom