question for tinhorn

dalliwacker

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Tinhorn

The other day you sketched a drawing of how to wire my cam, timer, sensor, and battery together.  You said I would have to run a connection from the relay on the sensor to the cam.  What contacts do I need to solder the wires in on the relay?  Thanks.
 



Tinhorn

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It would be he Normaly Open Contacts (NO),  one contact needs to be connected to batt (-) and the other to the timer trigger.
 

dalliwacker

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So it doesn't matter exactly what contact goes to the timer, NO, or -?  Another thing is, I already have a - wire soldered into the sensor as jesse's instructions suggest.  Which one do I need to have and which one do I need to get rid of?  Thank you for all of your help.  I hope I am not becoming a pain.

(Edited by dalliwacker at 1:49 am on April 21, 2001)
 

Tinhorn

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Dalliwacker

When I said connect a relay contack to Batt(-), I didn't mean literaly run a wire to the battery, I just mean't the contact has to be grounded, so you can connect it to the Batt(-) wire coming from the Battery you already have installed.

Just to try and be clear:
The relay contacts have individual pins, meaning there are at least 2 wires that come from the contacts (but some relays have 3 pins from the contacts)  

If there are only 2 pins, then one pin has be be connect to batt(-) (as above) and the other pin has to go to the Timer Trigger.

If there are 3 pins then there will be a COMMON, NO, and a NC.     Connect the Comm to Batt(-) and the NO to Timer Trigger......


You will only have 3 wires coming out of the Sensor, Batt(+),  Batt(-),  and the Trigger wire.

Sorry it's so hard for me to make it clear with only words and no pix......

Tinhorn
 

Richard Webb

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Hi Tinhorn - I was at Wal*Mart today looking for a furnace thermostat to mount on the side of an ammo can that would turn off my trail cam during hot weather. And there they were, a whole shelf full of Regent MS20's.  Remembering the good write-up you gave the 6 volt lantern batteries with the MS20, I couldn't resist trying one. What the heck, for $10 why experiment with the expensive 49-425. When I opened my MS20 it was OD color, and it's a perfect match for the ammo can. I soldered in the Radio Shack 9VDC Relay (275-005A) according to Jesse's instructions, and everything is working okay. So, now I'm ready for the 6 volt stuff. Wondering what you use for a relay, or how you hood up an opto coupler if you use one. I have a few lantern batteries here that were part of my Y2K store house, and might as well use them. Also, what resistor value would bring down the Auto Mode 3 minutes to abut 30 seconds.  Did you try to help the light sensor by adding one or two more sensors?
 

spectr17

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Richard,

Ya mean there's a Wal-Mart in California that I ddin't hit. Gonna have to fire my scouts. Careful, they could be decoys to throw you off the new supply of Owl PF cameras.

If I remember right, you'll need a 5 vdc relay for the Regent MS20 when you use a 6 vdc lantern battery. I'll have to defer this question to the others who have run the lantern batteries. I'm lantern battery challenged.
 

Tinhorn

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I wish Spectr17 was right and W-M would start handling the PF's again!

************************

Spectr17 is right, a 9 volt might work but I'd use a 5v instead.  I have never used a relay at all, on the MS20 tho because I have always used a timer.

Here is a Link to how I modify the MS20.  Altho I use a 6v batt, this mod will work with a power source of 6 to 24vdc (when using the proper relay of course, if one is used)  

When using a relay, don't use the 10K resistor, the relay coil wires would go in those holes, and put back Diode D1.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1292...=0&res=high

**************************

R25 (2.2M) is the timing resistor for Auto Mode so you could use a variable here or experiment with fixed resistors..... I don't know if it's linear or not, a 1M might cut the delay in half?

R23 (100K) could be replaced with a variable resistor to make Nite Detection Adjustable.

MS20 Power Supply Schematic
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1292...=0&res=high

MS20 Schematic (unmodified)
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1292...=0&res=high

******************************

Here is a step by step method of building a timer with RS parts if you or anybody else is interested

link to Timer How To, includes MS20 mods
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?...2602497&f=0

********************************

Tinhorn
 

Tinhorn

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I forgot to mention, I had my 1st 6v Lantern battery go dead.  In a week, it took a whole roll of film, after developing, I seen that the pix's were of nothing and taken about every 10 min's or so.

checked the battery and very weak....

I bought the batt last Jan (I mark them with the date) but I don't know how many days it was out, I should keep better records     :(

Tinhorn
 

Richard Webb

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Hi Tinhorn - Thanks for the help. I have room for 2 of those lantern batteries inside my ammo can, so wonder if there is an advantage to using 6 volts rather than 12 volts?  Also, wondering about using an opto coupler rather than a relay. What resistor value would have to be placed across the old relay holes to activate the opto coupler at 6 volts? Also, at 12 volts is that voltage is used.

Spectra - The Pleasanton Wal*Mart store has the Regent MS20 in quantity, but no Owl PFs.  The Pleasanton Stoneridge Shopping Center Ritz Store, has a few of the Owl PFs (without date) on the shelf for $39.99
 

Tinhorn

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RW

I think you could lift the Collector of Q4 (or cut the trace) so NOTHING is connected to the "C"

then connect this lead to the cam "trip" wire and Ground the other Trip wire to the ms 20 (-) batty and it would work that way with no other changes  (find the Most (+) lead of the cam trip wire and connect it to "C" of Q4)

I will rig this up and see in a couple days

Tinhorn
 

Tinhorn

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I forgot to mention your question about using 2, 6v lantern batteries:

I doubt if there would be any "real" advantages to using 12v in this manner because a single 6v batt will last MONTHs of continuous use

When batt's are in series, there is no increase in battery Ampcapacity (I don't think)

When they are in Parallel, there would be (the ampcapacity would double) but it's not good practice to do that because the weaker batt runs down the stronger batt until they are equall "Weakness" (again, I think that's true)

Using Optocouplers would be easy with the MS20, you would follow the procedure I posted on MS20 mods except leave out the 10K resistor and the Optocoupler LED part of the circuit would go at that location instead.  I believe for 6v's the LED resistor value would be 220 ohms for  6 volts and 510 ohms for 12v but better ask Archy about that, I'm not exactly sure of the optocoupler specs.

my thoughts......

Tinhorn
 

Archilochus

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Hi Richard, Tinhorn,
The optos I've been using are the more or less industry standard "El-cheapo" PS2501 parts (2502 and 2504 are the same parts, just with 2 or 4 optos per package).  These parts have a "gain" or "Current Transfer Ratio" (CTR) of from 80-600%.  Since they are only switching logic levels inside the camera, they don't need much current in at the LED to effectively 'close' the shutter contacts.  With a 6V supply, I usually use a 1k resistor at the optos LED.  Anything from ~220 Ohms up to ~2.2k will work, but with the 1k resistor current is kept low while still positively switching the output transistor.  Just double the values for 12V operation. Some optos LEDs can't tolerate a reverse voltage of over ~6 volts - don't hook em up backwards by accident if using 12V!
>>>>>
Note... The optos stocked at RS are TRIAC output devices.  I've never tried one of these on a camera shutter, but I don't think it will work - thet're meant for AC applications.

>>>>

On the 6V vs 12V question....Adding to Tinhorns' information -  I'm *guessing* the MS-20 has a linear 5V regulator in it somewhere - maybe a 78L05 (am I right??). If so, using a 12V supply would be a waste of batts as the extra voltage is just dissipated across the regulator.

Archilochus
 

Richard Webb

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Thanks Arch - The temperature today was 101 degrees, and is expected to stay up there all week.  This will be a good test week for my thermostat controlled cam with hot days & cool nights, plus it will give me a chance to work on the MS20. I plan to give that MS20 all the battery saving ideas that I can. Any suggestions? When I tried it out in the back yard, the MS20 will pick up my movement while I'm in the bushes, and the RS 49-425 wont. If that means anything? It also repeats better. The RS 49-425 is a little unpredictable at times, but I like the way the RS PIR Sensor is mounted on the board, so that it will fit edgewise under the Owl PF in a mini enclosure. The MS20 light sensor needs a lot of work before it will actually be dusk to dawn like is stated on the box. Any suggestions?
 

Tinhorn

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Archy/RW

The MS20 does operate on a reg who's output is 5vdc (but not using a 7805) so It would be more efficient to use 6v's  :)

Tinhorn
 

Richard Webb

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Hi Tinhorn - We both must have been typing a reply at the same time, because when I posted mine your reply pop up in front of my eyes. Thanks for all the help with the MS20. After playing around with it in the back yard, I can tell that I'm going like it. Doesn't have a sticky response like the RS PIR. I added a "Links Page" to my webpages, and it has some kool (sighting & encounters) sites listed. I think you'll like them. I spend a lot of time reading that stuff with amazement. A trail cam would be a good way to catch them. (or it?)

(Edited by Richard Webb at 8:09 pm on July 2, 2001)
 

Archilochus

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Hi Richard,
Can't wait to hear of your results with the thermostat.  I guess I don't really need to worry about the heat issue where I live, but it's still an interesting experiment.
>>>>>>
After reviewing Tinhorns various schematics, it looks like a fair amount of the 1.5mA current drawn by the MS-20 is consumed by the sensors voltage regulator circuit.  Unfortunately, the reg is not an integrated type, but is composed of an op-amp and several discrete components.  Short of ripping out all the components of the reg and replacing them with a micro-power/low-drop type, I can't see any way to reduce power consumption beyond what's already been discussed by others.  If you start getting that involved in modifying the sensor, it would probably be easier to just build your own.
>>>>>>>
Several years ago I used the RS part #61-2606 - which is a lighting control sensor similar to the MS-20.  After removing the 120VAC parts and replacing the IC regulator
(a 78L05) with a micro-power type,  this sensor had VERY low power consumption - down near the 49-425, if memory serves me.  It also had a good detection range and sensitivity - could pick up a chickadee at 10 feet.  Two nice features it had were adjustable daylight shutdown and an adjustable timer (~12 sec - 12 min)  I had built a really funky looking trail-cam out of this using a 4" PVC coupler with the little sensor pod mounted externally underneath - looked like some kind of UFO but worked great!  I've since returned it to duty as a motion activated spotlight.
>>>>>>
From Tihorns schematics, it looks like getting the daylight shutdown to function 'dawn to dusk' will be a matter of fiddling with the values of resistors R23, R24 and R27(#?)
Be carful not to use too low of a value on any of these resistors, as you can see in the drawing there are a few different paths from V+ to ground.  First thing I'd try is replacing R27 (that says 6.8k, right?) with a 4.7k and placing a 10k variable between R27 and ground.  Adjust the variable to change the bias at the base of Q3.  Might also need to reduce the values of R23 and R24 a bit.  If you end up using your thermostat instead of the daylight sensor, remove the photo-resistor to save a bit of power.

Good Luck!,
Archilochus
 

Richard Webb

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Hi Tinhorn - My MS20 worked fine on 9 volts with a RS 9 volt relay, but when I changed the relay & battery over to 6 volts only the walk light off of pin #14 works. I assume that a resistor at the base of one of the transistors must need to be changed?  Wondering what I have to do to get the thing to work on 6 volts? The 6 volt relay that I found (NTE R46-503-6 SPDT 5A-6VDC) is a little longer, but fits in the existing holes in the PC Board. However, the large capacitor needs to be removed. Is it okay to remove it? At present I have it wired in with pigtails.
 

dharter

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I took apart a MS20c that I had bought at Wal-Mart. It had a Good Sky RUT-SS-124DM relay in it.  I was able to find the specificaitions for it on a web site.  Here is the url:  http://www.goohdsky.com.tw/product/e_prod_f.htm
You can look at the mechanical dimensions and perhaps find another one that has the same pinout and compatible dimensions.
 

BowDoc

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What is the problem with the MS20 and temp. Why do you have to put a furnace thermostat on them. At what temp do they shut down
 


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