Tinhorn Question.

Possum

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 6, 2001
Messages
721
Reaction score
0
The pics of the timer board you have loaded on the photo albulm show a MS20 board being modified to work with your timer.  I noticed there are only three wires coming off.  +, -, and green trip wire.  Do you think this will work with Joe's timer?  If it won't I'm curious how the green wire interacts with your timer board.  Where is the other side coming from?  I want to get rid of the clicking associated with the 9 volt relay,  If this is not wise, does anyone know what resistor value would lower the 9 volts from the MS20 to a safe 5 volts for the smaller relay?  Thanks for the help in advance.
 

Tinhorn

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 13, 2001
Messages
3,516
Reaction score
0
Hi Possum,  (note Archy, Gizz, Matt from Mo., other techno geeks, I too - would like your comments)

I got a couple of JoeD's timers but haven't breadboarded them yet.  I plan on using one with the MS20 and the other with the Lampson PIR, found at Lowes.

The problem is going to be, as you expected, the 2 different battery voltages required.  I've been thinking a little bit about this problem lately.  

Thinking OutLoud MODE:
don't let all these words scare you, it won't be that big a deal!!!


I don't know if there are any "Efficient" voltage regulator IC's out there that will reduce 9v down to (say) 5 volts.  Most regulators turn the "Overvoltage" into Heat which makes them in-efficient for our purposes (we want long battery life and don't want to waste energy by heating up something to drop a couple volts)   I don't know if there are any "efficient' regulators designed for battery's or not   (Archy ?) .....

The MS20 will run off 6 volts just fine and what I currently have in mind is to use either 4 - AA, C or even D cells in series, depending on room in the enclosure I decide to use.  Naturally the C or D cells would last longer than AA's but 4 AA's seem to be running 3 weeks or so for me right now, using the MS20's and 2 stage timers.  Using JoeD's timers, we'd get more than the 3 weeks on AA's but I doubt it'd be much more.

Radio Shack sells battery holders we need for just a few bucks.  What we'd have to do is have a COMMON Ground (Matt - &nbsp and run the full 6 volts to the MS20 but tap into the battery holder with a wire leading to JoeD's timers so that LESS than 5.5 volts would get to the timer.  

In other words, 3 cells = (1.5 X 3) 4.5 volts so we want the voltage from 3 cells to get to the timer.  Starting with the common ground battery, count the cells toward the Positive battery holders terminal to find which battery is number 3, and solder a wire here, to the positive terminal on the Battery Holder and go over to the JoeD timer, get it!  (Better be safe and measure the voltage)

The green trip wire from the MS20
Here is the rub with the Trip Wire.  The Green Trip Wire is held to (+) battery volts (which would be 6volts, the MS20 battery voltage)  When the MS20 Senses Movement, it grounds the Green Wire thru the 10K resistor (which is added across where the Original Relay Coil terminals were)

So, when the Sensor Does NOT sense movement, the Green wire is at "MS20" Volts (6), too high for the JoeD timer's trigger input, it might destroy the IC.

There are several ways to lower this too high 6volts but I think the best (& safest) mite be just to use a 5 volt REED relay (very quiet) on the MS20 or one of Archy's OptoCouplers.  Efficiency wise, the reed relay coil only draws 20ma's, the same as an LED so it don't much matter which component is used (in my opinion) other than relays are mechanical and do eventually wear out......  These components would be wired to ground JoeD's timer to Common Ground.

A 3rd possibility to solve the battery difference problem is to use two general purpose Diodes in Series between the 6volt battery pack and the timer.  Each diode will drop a half-a-volt and reduce the 6 volts down to 5 volts for the timer.  I've done this before, using 6v lantern batteries to drive TTL digital IC's (which run on 5 volts)

End Outloud Mode:

I am hoping the Lampsom PIR will run on 6 volts but even if it's 9 only, that's only 6 - 1 cell battery's in series instead of 4, no big deal  (Gizz?)

dropping resistor FORMULA for relay coil

formula:  Resistor = (Batt volts - Relay Coil Volts) / Relay Coil Current

E.G.
Battery Volts = 9
Relay Coil = 5volts with a 20ma coil (.020 amps)
**********************************
9 - 5 = 4 volts to drop
4 / .020 (amps) = 200 ohm resistor

Add this value resistor in series with one of the relay coil terminals.

*******WOW*********

all those words above ended up scaring even me!!!!

Tinhorn
 

Possum

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 6, 2001
Messages
721
Reaction score
0
Tinhorn, I am using a MS20 running off a 9 volt battery.  Then I am running the JT(Joe's Timer) off of 3 AA rechargables.  What I was trying to do was use a noiseless relay with the MS20.  The 9 volt one clicks awful loud.  I think you are telling me you want to run the entire system off of 1 battery pack, right?
I like the idea about one battery pack and running both items off of it using different wires for 3 batteries and another + wire for the entire pack.  That would be an easy way to rig it.

I might just go and buy a RSPIR to use so I don't get the click.  NOTE: I don't think the deer mind to much when they are on a trail.  I do think they mind when it is clicking on and off at a feeder.  Just my guess.  Anyway, I have both and will continue to use them.  The deer still are coming to the corn so it must not make them that nervous.

ps thanks for the info on the green wire and how it works.

Tinhorn, The post about the relay ? with the MS20 has answered my question.  You are usin a 5v relay with a 6 volt battery.  Got it. Thanks for the link to the pics.

(Edited by Possum at 3:36 pm on Oct. 15, 2001)
 

Archilochus

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2001
Messages
1,285
Reaction score
0
Hi Tinhorn,
While you're out shopping for a new keyboard, you might check out those "voice to text" programs - save ya from gettin' Carpal Tunnel Syndrome!  ; )

**"Mr Sulu.....Engage Geek Mode - Geek factor 6"**
"Geek mode engaged, Captain!"
>>>>
The only truly efficient way to lower and regulate a voltage without wasting (much) power is with a switch-mode "step-down" regulator.  These are not fun or cheap to build!
>>>>
That's an interesting idea - running the timer from 3 cells of the 4 cell batt pack.  I've often read that you should *always* use batts that have the same level of charge together (in either parallel or series connections)  Running JoeDs' timer from 3 cells of the 4 cell batt pack would discharge those 3 cells faster than the last cell.  Not sure if that last cell would be too happy with the arrangement.  Could be that his timer uses such a small amount of power that it wouldn't make any difference if it was wired it that way.

I'd go with 3 1N400x diodes in series with the positive supply to JoeDs' timer.  Then use 3 diodes between the MS-20s' output and the timer.  You'd also need a "pull down" resitor of ~220K at the timers input (since you're blocking the negative part of the signal)

Good possibility that his timer can tolerate more than 4.5 volts - but it'd be best to ask him on that one.  If the timer can tolerate 5 volts you could just run it from the MS-20s' regulated voltage and have no problems with different voltage levels.

Archilochus
 

Tinhorn

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 13, 2001
Messages
3,516
Reaction score
0
Man, I'm embarrassed:

I was thinking more about the Lampson PIR than the MS20 since Gizz mentioned awhile back it's so energy efficient that it and the JoeD timer would make a good pair, the JoeD timer only draws a Max of 1 ma then goes to sleep mode and draws .1 ma  

The main problem with the Lampson (and MS20) would be the diff in power supply volts.

This caused me to loose track of the obvious, use the MS20's internal 5V Regulated Power Supply.   JoeD's timer voltage range is 3 to 5.5 volts and draws 1 ma or less so the MS20's 5 volt supply should handle it ok.

The MS20's 5V Regulator Output is off the Emiter of Q1 and on the (+) side of C5, 220uf.  Just solder a wire in the most convenient spot and run it over to the JoeD timer's batt (+) terminal, don't forget the Commom Ground wire.  If somehow the Timer triggers the MS20, put in a General Purpose Diode in series between the MS20 Power Supply and Timer (the Kathode connectes to the Timer side)  This should block any pulse backing up into the MS20 and possibly giving a false trigger.

If you do this, the MS20 can run off anywhere from 6 to 24 volts DC, so even a 12 volt battery pack would operate both the MS20 and JoeD timer.

*************************************

I need to get the Lampson PIR and reverse engineer it and see if it has a 5v reg too, any takers on figuring out the popular RS PIR plus Timer?

*************************************

Thanx Archy, for finding the obvious power supply cure on the MS20.  

I was afraid You or Possum would respond with a one liner post, like "Ok",  to my hunnert line post and really embarrass me,  ha ha

Tinhorn
 

Possum

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 6, 2001
Messages
721
Reaction score
0
His specs say 3-5.5 volts.  The baby was crying so I could not concentrate so I took out my last post.

Also, after Tinhorn's and Archilochus' posts I KNOW I am not thinking in their league.  Tinhorn, I am running the RSPIR off of a seperate battery source than the JT timer.  Much less complicated for a  Financial Engineer like myself.  



(Edited by Possum at 8:14 pm on Oct. 15, 2001)
 

Possum

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 6, 2001
Messages
721
Reaction score
0
Okay, in plain English:  Run + wire from the C5 + side or the Q1 to the timer + side and then run the ground from the MS20 to the - side of the timer.  Also, put a diode in place to keep any reverse voltage from false triggering the MS20.  Right?  Then I can run the MS20 and the timer anywhere from 6volts to 12 volts and be okay.

Thanks Archy and Tinhorn for these posts.  I could not have built these cams without your help.  Thank you Joe D. for your timer.

Tinhorn, you are correct.  I get 5v from the Q1.  Well, I get 5 volts from one side and 5.5 from the other side of Q1.  I will use the lower side. Do you have any predictions of how long 4 alkalines would last with this MS20 & timer?

(Edited by Possum at 8:40 pm on Oct. 15, 2001)
 

Eagle Eye

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 18, 2001
Messages
170
Reaction score
0
I'm going to try a different approach using JoeD's timer.
I plan on using one of the X10 sensors which runs on 2 AA batts. I like this sensor because it has a LED which flashes when motion is detected, is easy to modify, just solder one wire.
I've been testing one for about two months now and the batteries are still strong.
I plan on running the timer and sensor on one Black & Decker cordless screwdriver battery, which with a full charge shows about 4.1v.
I,ll let ya know if I get it going, waiting on parts and the time to assemble.
Special thanks to hamiltoe who helped me on this.
 

Eagle Eye

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 18, 2001
Messages
170
Reaction score
0
They had a special a while back on their website,  buy one get one free. Shipping and all I figure around $14.00 a piece. Sometimes you can find them on Ebay.
 

BUCKRIDER

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2001
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
Hey guys! I just ordered the joe-D timer and emailed him about this very topic! I asked him how to step down the 12 volts from the MS20 sensor to 5 volts as to not "burn out" the timer. His reply was "the timer will handle your 12 volts with out any problem!" So I hope this is of some help to you. I also hope it is true! But he should know...
 

JoeD

Active member
Joined
Aug 15, 2001
Messages
31
Reaction score
0
Sorry, Buckrider, I misunderstood your question. The timer will need to run off of 3 volts to 5.5 volts.  I thought you were asking about the relay.
I know everyone is looking for a way to drop the voltage down.  The only efficient way that I know of to do that is with a switching regulator .  Sorry about the confusion

JoeD
 

gizz

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2001
Messages
1,395
Reaction score
0
WHew!!! Thanks for steppin in there JoeD, I was about to cook one of your timers.

Now that I have a digi multimeter I think I'll look for some place on the board that already has a stepped down voltage - It could be there somewhere?
I'll be in Colorado for the next 2 weeks after today so this will all have to wait till I get back. Of course you guys can figure it all out so when I get back I can just scarf your knowledge. :smiley-thumbs-up:

(Edited by gizz at 8:25 am on Oct. 16, 2001)
 

Tinhorn

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 13, 2001
Messages
3,516
Reaction score
0
Good Luck Gizz, in case I miss you,  take some pix's

Possum, you got it on the MS20 5 volts......the capacitor and Q1 Emitter are all connected together, just find the easiest place to solder on a wire for the timer, like you said

The X10 PIR really sounds interesting too

Hmmmmm

Tinhorn
 

Archilochus

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2001
Messages
1,285
Reaction score
0
Hi everyone,
Since you all have the MS-20 and X-10 covered, I figured I'd toss in a bit on how the RS 49-425 sensor might be used with JoeDs' timer.  I have lent out my only cam with a 49-425, and I don't yet have one of JoeDs timers - so I HAVE NOT tried this yet - but I think it should work.
>>>>
Building on Tinhorns idea covered in an earlier post (do a search on "49-425" ) - Remove the speaker.  Disconnect the output of the small IC from "R14"   Connect the pin #2 output from the large IC to the now open end of "R14"  Connect the black wire that used to go to the speaker to one end of a 100,000 ohm resistor and to the input of JoeDs' timer.  Connect the other end of the 100,000 ohm resistor to the 49-425s *regulated* +5 volt supply - NOT the 9 volt batt supply!!  (use a voltmeter)

This inverts the pin #2 output of the large IC so it is "normally high" and falls "low" when motion is detected.

Power JoeDs timer from the *regulated* +5 volt supply on the 49-425 board- NOT the "raw" 9 volt batt supply!!

That should do it.  I'll try it out when I get all the parts together.

>>>>EDIT>>>>
*** Just checked JoeDs web-site.  It looks like his timer just needs to be pulled "low" to trigger - so if I read it right you should be able to can the 100,000 ohm resistor mentioned above. ***


Archilochus

(Edited by Archilochus at 8:40 am on Oct. 16, 2001)
 

BUCKRIDER

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2001
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
Boy, now im really confused! Joe-D just sent me an e-mail confirming that it is ok to use 12 volt power for his timer but then here he stated that you must stay with the 3-5.5 volts? WHHAAaaaaa? now what? Im not doing anything till I find out for sure whats the real story! hehe...
 

Possum

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 6, 2001
Messages
721
Reaction score
0
Buckrider, read the posts above about connecting to the MS20 and the RSPIR.  The MS20 & RSPIR post is correct from Tinhorn and Archy about the Q1 & C5 connection points (for the MS20 ) and the RSPIR 5v regulated supply.  I put a multimeter on the MS20 last night and it is indeed 5 volts of regulated power.  This will drive the timer.  If you are in doubt, do as I did for the first two and run a seperate battery source to the timer.   I talked to Joe last night and he assured me the voltage is 3 to 5.5 volts for the chip.



(Edited by Possum at 5:43 pm on Oct. 16, 2001)
 

JoeD

Active member
Joined
Aug 15, 2001
Messages
31
Reaction score
0
Buckrider,  I am not telling you to use 12 volts for my timer.  YOU CAN'T.   What I am saying to you, is you can use the 12 volts to power your MS20.  Your question was "Do you have to replace the 12volt reed relay with a 5 volt relay?"  The answer to this question is NO.  It doesn't matter if you use a 12 volt relay or a 5 volt relay.  Think of the relay as switch it is either open or closed.  The relay is not sending 12 volts to the timer.  THE TIMER WORKS OFF OF ITS OWN BATTERY SUPPLY, 3volts to 5.5 volts. When you receive the timer there will be 3 sets of wires labeled.  One set will say PIR, connect  these 2 wires to your 12 volt reed relay.  The next set will say to the battery pack , connect these two wires to your Radio Shack battery pack for the timer.  The third set will be for your camera, plug your camera into the stereo jacks that come with the timer.  Thats all there is to it.
 

BUCKRIDER

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2001
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
JoeD, I think I must have missed the turn off when things went from TWO power sources, one for sensor and the other for your timer, to ONE power source for the sensor and your timer! Have you guys been talking about using One power source when trying to step down the voltage? I understand what you had been telling me all along but got confused when the topic went to A single power source! My mistake, hope I didnt cause any problems and burn up anyones timer! Thanks JoeD for your patience as well as all you other guys! See what I meant, when I said I was not an electronics whizz! Send it on!
 

Brian

Inactive
Joined
Jul 30, 2001
Messages
1,194
Reaction score
0
Arch,

Why can't you use the 5 volt micro power regulator trasistor to give a constant 5 volts to power the later part of the circuit.  It can sustain an input voltage of 12 volts.  As long as the trigger levels are of the same voltage then this will work.  If not then use transistors to change the voltage levels to his timers to a safe voltage.  The regulator only draws a micro amp or two to give the constant 5 volts and it is capable of sourcing 150mA.  I haven't read everything above but it seems like it would work with some conditioning of the trigger from the MS20 the RS-429 already has a 5 volt trigger on pin 2 and would not need any modification to the trigger to the timer.

Just a thought.

Brian

(Edited by Brian at 10:54 am on Oct. 22, 2001)
 

Latest Posts

Advertisement



Top Bottom