What EVERYONE Needs to Know About Smokeless Muzzle

[RandyWakeman]

What EVERYONE Needs to Know About Smokeless Muzzleloading

There has been an unprecedented amount of supposition and speculation surrounding smokeless muzzleloading, though it has been a well-proven system for nearly a decade by now—far more time-tested and game-tested than the use of sulfurless synthetic propellants such as Triple 7 that remain corrosive, and obscure visibility. It is time to put these rumors to rest, based on empirical evidence alone—not preexisting attitudes or lack of understanding. In this brief article, I believe I’ll do just that.

I. SMOKELESS MEANS HIGH VELOCITY

No. This is easily disproved. Smokeless no more means “high velocity” than a 12 ga. shotgun means high velocity, or a .22 rimfire. In fact, those who think still that muzzle velocity alone is the component that defines smokeless can take a look at Knight Rifles and Thompson Center Arms catalogues and owners manuals. Both have published factory loads that well exceed those published by Savage Arms.

II. SMOKELESS MEANS HIGH PRESSURE

This again is clearly wrong. Today’s 2000 fps shotshell whitetail loads do not exceed 12,000 PSI MAP: that is the SAAMI limit. They do use smokeless powder, of course. Three pellet loads with a 250 gr. bullet have been proved to exceed 25,000 PSI by Lyman Ballistic Labs and other independent sources. 50 grains of Vihtavouri N120 gets a 250 gr. Barnes MZ-Expander out the muzzle of a Savage 10ML-II at around 1960 fps. MAP= Approx. 18,832 PSI.

III. SMOKELESS MEANS SIGNIFICANTLY GREATER RANGE

No, this is hardly the case. No .45 caliber bullet can fly very flat. We are shooting the same saboted bullets, at similar velocities to any other inline muzzleloader. None compare with the flight characteristics of a 7mm class cartridge, or a .30 caliber projectile. They never will due to the “load from the muzzle” sabot limitations.

IV. SMOKELESS MEANS LESS RECOIL

True! Powder weight is a component of recoil, and we can get similar performance by using half as much powder. Less abuse to your scope, your shoulder, and it is every bit as lethal. That makes the Savage 10ML-II the top choice for recoil sensitive, older, or smaller. There is no glory in self-abuse. A dedicated article on this website discusses this in detail.

V. ONLY SMOKELESS IS LOADED IN MODERN CARTRIDGES

This is obviously incorrect. Triple Se7en, marketed by Hodgdon Powder as a “blackpowder substitute” has PUBLISHED load data by Hodgdon Powder for use in “223 REM 25 ACP 7MM TCU 7MM BR REM 7MM-08 REM 30-30 WIN 308 WIN 32 ACP 32 S&W LONG 32 H&R MAG 32-20 WIN 380 AUTO 9MM LUGER 38 SUPER AUTO 38 SPECIAL 38 SPECIAL +P 357 SIG 357 MAGNUM 357 REM MAX 35 REM 9X18 MAKAROV 375 JDJ 38-40 WIN 40 S&W 10MM AUTO 41 REM MAG
44 RUSSIAN 44 COLT 44 S&W SPECIAL 44-40 WIN 44 REM MAG 44 AUTO MAG 45 GLOCK AUTO 45 ACP 45 COLT 45 COLT (Ruger, Freedom Arms & TC Only) 45 WIN MAG 454 CASULL 460 ROWLAND 475 LINEBAUGH 480 RUGER 50 AE 500 LINEBAUGH 500 S & W MAGNUM” all from Hodgdon Powder. Triple Se7en was not sold before 2002; to say it is not an ultra modern high-energy propellant is taking severe liberties with the truth. It can hardly be considered “just a blackpowder substitute,” when it is recommended for use in cartridges and firearms specifically designed for smokeless powder only. Triple Se7en is also CLEARLY a smokeless powder substitute in most of the above applications.

VI. SMOKELESS MEANS LESS OPERATING COST

It sure does, astonishing so. This is also defined in detail in a dedicated article. You are using expensive, “fake blackpowder” propellants that can cost $25 a pound, and you are using a lot MORE of it by weight.

VII. SMOKELESS IS A SAFER WAY TO MUZZLELOAD

It certainly is: the U.S. Military and Department of Transportation have long proved that smokeless powder is safer to handle, use, and store than blackpowder and easily ignitable so-called substitutes. The 100% barrel proofing of the Savage 10ML-II proves it is manufactured to a higher standard, see the dedicated article on proofing on this site for further information. Additionally, the Accu-Trigger is obviously the safest trigger ever to be placed on a muzzleloader.

VIII. SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADERS LAST LONGER THAN OTHER MUZZLELOADERS

There is no disputing that—with the removal of caustic, corrosive propellants, your gun simply is not being constantly attacked by them. A Savage 10ML-II is a lifetime gun and will not rot itself to pieces.

IX. SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADERS ARE MORE ACCURATE THAN REGULAR MUZZLELOADERS

Generally, they clearly are. The lack of heavy fouling and caking residue from shot-to-shot means a more a consistent bore condition from shot to shot, and consistency and accuracy are one and the same.

X. SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADING IS A QUICKER, MORE HUMANE WAY TO HARVEST GAME

It sure is, by design. The Savage has a 1:24 twist barrel that can stabilize and accurately shoot 300 grain projectiles where other muzzleloaders cannot—it was designed around a 300 grain bullet. That means more terminal energy, greater wounding, more shock-down power, more striking energy, and a more humane harvest. The lack of noxious smoke obscuring the hunter’s vision means more quickly recovered game, and less lost game.

 

[LarryFox1]

While Savage Arms may have went out side of the Ball's intention of a smokeless MLer.There Somkeless MLer's are failing just as bad or nearly as bad as some of these other MLer's are, i see guns blown apart just as bad as some of these other MLer's have done.It is not soup yet from what i see

 

[RandyWakeman]

Actually, the Savage 10ML-II has the best safety record of ANY muzzleloader ever made. Not one injury to a shooter yet.

This despite double loading, shooting out ramrods, and all kinds of operator error.

 

[LarryFox1]

Well as to date i have seen 5 inline MLer's Blown apart .2 were CVA's,1 Traditions and 2 Savage Smokeless MLer's and 1 of them Blew apart so bad the Breech Plug has yet to be found.Just because there has not been a report of a shooter injury does not change the fact's.These Smokeless Savage MLer's have not been on the market long enought to declare them the all Mighty of Muzzleloader's.In time they may be able to claim that,but like i said it is not soup yet.All makes of MLer will suffer from Shooter Error's from time to time.The trick about that, is for a MLer,maker, to make one the strongest that can be made and not change thing's around to suit there production cost

 

[RandyWakeman]

Originally posted by LarryFox1@Jul 13 2005, 10:00 PM
Well as to date i have seen 5 inline MLer's Blown apart .2 were CVA's,1 Traditions and 2 Savage Smokeless MLer's and 1 of them Blew apart so bad the Breech Plug has yet to be found.Just because there has not been a report of a shooter injury does not change the fact's.These Smokeless Savage MLer's have not been on the market long enought to declare them the all Mighty of Muzzleloader's.

The Savage has been on the market for six years-- thousands and thousands of guns in use. It was in development for six years prior to that. What "facts" are you talking about? You have presented no facts. A breech can't be found? That makes no sense-- just what are you talking about?

Henry Ball is a friend of mine-- to state that Savage "may have gone out of Ball's intention" is completely wrong, untrue, and without merit. If you doubt that, call him and he will be delighted to inform you.

The 100% proof tested 10ML-II, though it has been proved to withstand 129,000 PSI and has no Savage recommended loads beyond 40,000 PSI is not completely idiotproof; no firearm is. A 300% safety factor may not be enough for brainless sea slug operation.

It is, however, the safest muzzleloader that has ever been made to date.

 

[LarryFox1]

Originally posted by RandyWakeman+Jul 14 2005, 05:21 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RandyWakeman @ Jul 14 2005, 05:21 AM)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-LarryFox1

@Jul 13 2005, 10:00 PM
Well as to date i have seen 5 inline MLer's Blown apart .2 were CVA's,1 Traditions and 2 Savage Smokeless MLer's and 1 of them Blew apart so bad the Breech Plug has  yet to be found.Just because there has not been a report of a shooter injury does not change the fact's.These Smokeless Savage MLer's have not been on the market long enought to declare them the all Mighty of Muzzleloader's.

The Savage has been on the market for six years-- thousands and thousands of guns in use. It was in development for six years prior to that. What "facts" are you talking about? You have presented no facts. A breech can't be found? That makes no sense-- just what are you talking about?

Henry Ball is a friend of mine-- to state that Savage "may have gone out of Ball's intention" is completely wrong, untrue, and without merit. If you doubt that, call him and he will be delighted to inform you.

The 100% proof tested 10ML-II, though it has been proved to withstand 129,000 PSI and has no Savage recommended loads beyond 40,000 PSI is not completely idiotproof; no firearm is. A 300% safety factor may not be enough for brainless sea slug operation.

It is, however, the safest muzzleloader that has ever been made to date. [/b]

It makes plenty of since that when the sides of the barrel give away so badly that the breech Plug blows out the side of it,to the point it can not be found.I say it is not soup yet,Just because Ball is a friend of yours carry's very little weight with me.But if that is what you are trying to get across as the why the Savage Smokeless MLer is so Great,than be my guest.And 6 years is still not a long time,infact makes it a short time

 

[RandyWakeman]

I have no idea what breechplug you are talking about. What breechplug ARE you talking about?

If you think 6 years is a short time, then you should have a real problem with Triple Seven powder-- not released until the fall of 2002. The Omega, same time frame.

If you want to make assumptions and guess what Henry Ball's feelings are-- well, then guess. If you want to know, just call him.

The Savage 110 series bolt action guns have been firing smokeless powder since 1958.

 

[LarryFox1]

Originally posted by RandyWakeman@Jul 14 2005, 07:54 AM
I have no idea what breechplug you are talking about. What breechplug ARE you talking about?

If you think 6 years is a short time, then you should have a real problem with Triple Seven powder-- not released until the fall of 2002. The Omega, same time frame.

If you want to make assumptions and guess what Henry Ball's feelings are-- well, then guess. If you want to know, just call him.

The Savage 110 series bolt action guns have been firing smokeless powder since 1958.

The facts that i have stated came from via me that i have seen with my own 2 eye's.My facts are not in such a cloud from some other out side party's data.I have been a Gun Smith for a very long time and i need no data on something that i can see for myself.and as far as Henry Ball goes,i might just look him up the bext time i go home to Reidsville N.C. where i grew up and work for nearly 40 years
Now tell me this and so many others here .Why is it when someone differ's from your Point of View that you feel like you should pose yourself as some kind of all mighty and know all.You should get your hands dirty more often and with both eyes open up and not take all written data as the upper most facts.below ios a copy and paste of some of what i been saying

HIGH PERFORMANCE MUZZLELOADING Press Release
August 24, 2004
SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADING SAFETY WARNING
HIGH PERFORMANCE MUZZLELOADING host Toby Bridges has been the biggest proponent of the "smokeless powder" Savage muzzleloader ever since the company introduced the system back in 2000. And to date, he has logged more than 35,000 rounds through the Savage Model 10ML II. However, a catastrophic failure while test firing the rifle earlier this year nearly cost him his life.


The tests being conducted back in mid March were to determine the failure point of modern sabots when shooting powders recommended in the Savage Model 10ML II owner's manual. Plus he was testing the longevity of an internal part of the ignition system for Savage Arms. After running a series of shots with 48-grain charges of Accurate Arms 5744, with no excessive pressure signs with the primers or recovered sabots, he moved up to 49 grains of the same powder. And when the trigger was pulled, the rifle literally came apart in front of his eyes. The rear 9 inches of barrel split in several areas, with a 6-inch section of steel disappearing downrange, beyond the 100-yard berm. The 3-9x40 scope was ripped from the bases, and broken in two. The front objective and lens was blown 25 yards forward of the shooting bench, while the rear 3/4ths of the scope passed within inches of the shooter's head and landed in the parking lot 75 yards away. The laminated wood stock was reduced to a pile of splinters.


Fortunately, Bridges was not hit by any of the flying debris and was not injured physically. However, he has this to say about the incident, "Having a pipe bomb literally explode right in your face has an impact on you, whether you're hit by flying metal and wood or not. On the way home from the range that day, I became so shaken when thinking back on the incident that I had to pull off the highway twice to regain my composure. And even though it's been four months since the rifle failed, I still have great difficulty sleeping at night."
HIGH PERFORMANCE MUZZLELOADING web magazine has also been contacted by 3 others who have experienced pressure problems in the Savage "smokeless powder"
muzzleloaders. None of the rifles were as severely damaged as the rifle that exploded on Toby Bridges (photos above). And fortunately, one of the other Savage muzzleloader owners only received minor injuries.


No one has been a stronger supporter of the Savage Model 10ML II than Toby Bridges. Early on, he conducted most all of the early testing of this rifle for the company, plus compiled all of the compatible powders for this system. And to date, no one else has logged as many smokeless rounds through a Savage Model 10ML II than he has.


And even with this knowledge of the system and the loads for this rifle, this muzzleloading expert has now witnessed the devastation that can be caused by smokeless powder loads in a rifle of muzzleloading design. Here is a rifle that went through years of development and engineering, and yet was still susceptible to the unpredictable power of modern nitrocellulose-based smokeless powders.


"Savage Arms has not done a very good job of educating the shooting public about the powders, nor the amounts, that can be loaded and shot out of their Model 10ML II. The manual that came with the rifle that exploded on me lists some recommended starting loads, but nowhere does it say these loads should be considered "maximum". In fact, the manual recommends loading a little more or a little less to find the charge that shoots best out of a particular Savage muzzleloader," claims Bridges.


The manual states "Note: The Savage Model 10ML II is designed, engineered and built to withstand the higher pressures of modern smokeless propellants such as those listed above."


The powders listed include IMR-4227, Accurate Arms XMP-5744 and VihtaVuori N110. However, the loose interpretation of "propellants such as those listed above" has resulted in many shooters now loading and shooting powders that are not all that compatible with this system, such as Hodgdon's LIL' GUN. This is a fine rolled powder developed for use in .410 shotshells. Some Model 10ML II shooters are loading and shooting more than 50 grains of this powder to get a saboted 250-grain bullet out of the Model 10ML II muzzle at around 2,700 f.p.e. And such loads are producing in excess of 60,000 p.s.i. inside the muzzleloader's barrel. That's more than the recommended maximum loads for the .300 Winchester Magnum.


The Savage muzzleloader shooter who received minor injuries from the excessive pressures produced in his rifle was shooting a load of LIL' GUN that had been recommended by a Savage engineer.


Early in the production of this system, Savage claimed to have run a series of tests to see what it would take to severely damage one of the rifles. One report was that 90 grains of Red Dot was loaded into one of the rifles, then topped with three saboted 300-grain bullets (90 grains of projectile)...and when the rifle was fired from a remote location, the load only bent the recoil lug. And due to such reports, Model 10ML II shooters continually develop hotter and hotter loads, feeling that the rifle is infallible.


Toby Bridges is very likely the top muzzleloading expert in the country today, with nine books on the topic to his credit, and currently hosts the leading source of high performance muzzleloading information on the internet today. He has never considered any muzzleloader infallible, but had shot the Savage 10ML II more than enough to put all of his trust into the system. Now, after experiencing a catastrophic failure of that system, he's just happy to still be alive.


"I now question if muzzleloding will ever be to the point where smokeless powders can be safely used in a mass produced front-loaded rifle. I feel confident that we now have custom gun makers who have the ability to build such a rifle on a modern center-fire rifle action, using the best quality barrel and internal parts that can withstand the punishment of hot smokeless loads. But, I'm not sure that the average shooter is fully capable of following the stringent loading practices necessary to keep smokeless muzzleloading safe," says Bridges.
And check this out for some interesting reading and some PICs
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/

 

[RandyWakeman]

Larry, doesn't EVERYBODY really know by now that Bridges was canned by Henry Ball and Savage? This self-proclaimed "expert" did nothing but tout the Savage for six years-- until he was fired. Bingo, all of a sudden a gun blows up. Not then, but months and months earlier. No safety concern then. Do you really need a picture to be drawn on this one?

Extortion attempts should get no round of applause from anyone with a basic moral compass. This isn't support your local crook week.

This is old, old news-- the quasi press release you "added" is just a direct cut and paste from Toby. Toby Bridges says Toby Bridges is likely the top muzzleloading expert in the country. I examined the Toby gun; so have several experts with a combined 225 years in the industry-- it was an obvious bore obstruction, simple as that. How could you miss that? As far as your ruminations on the breechplug-- NO Savage breechplug has ever failed. Not one. This is no cheap, imported, untested gun . . . it is made right in Westfield,MA, where all the Savage centerfires are made. No other muzzleloader has ever been made to this high standard of service factor.

The other side of the story should make it clear:

Interrogatories for Master Sergeant William C. Ball

How long have you known Alfred “Toby” Bridges?

Since late 1996 or early 1997.

To the best of your knowledge, does Alfred “Toby Bridges” have any experience as a rifle designer?

To my knowledge Mr. Bridges has never designed nor built a single firearm, from scratch. He has worked in marketing and promotions, not in the technical areas.

To your knowledge, does Alfred “Toby” Bridges have any experience as a gunsmith?

No. To my knowledge Mr. Bridges has no formal training as either a gunsmith or a machinist. Anyone can learn assembly/disassembly from the owner’s manual, exploded drawings, gunsmithing books, or manuals. This by no means makes them a gunsmith.

As to the character of Mr. Bridges, are you aware of any substance abuse problems?

Yes. Mr. Bridges is rather fond of Jack Daniels, on a daily basis. I have also heard from a very reputable source, that he has had problems with abusing illegal substances in the past.

Are you aware of any poaching or other illegal taking of game by Mr. Bridges?

Yes. I know of 2 instances of blatant, wanton waste, first hand. Back in 2002, he was testing the then new Parker 275gr Hydra-Con bullet. He shot 4 does one day (by state law you are only allowed 2 per day) and left all 4 of them lying were he shot them. At least 2 other hunters heard every shot he took, as they all within 300yds to 500yds of his stand. Yet he claimed he never fired a shot. They were discovered 2 days later, when another member of our group went to that same stand to hunt it one evening. Another instance, he admitted that he shot a buck, but didn't bring it out because it had a festered flesh wound probably from archery season. In all these case he never registered a single one of them, as required by law. Also that same year he knowingly trespassed on private without written permission (as required by state law) to hunt and laughed about the unsuccessful attempt of the landowner to get him to leave.

Are you aware of wife-beating and related violations of court ordered restraining orders by Mr. Bridges?

Yes. In June 2002, Mr. Bridges had domestic abuse charges taken against him for assault on Debbie Bennett, his fiancée. About a week or so later, he was arrested for violating the restraining order that was filed against him. I found the court record on MO department of justice website.

Was Mr. Bridges jailed for this?

Yes, he was indeed arrested and jailed for this.

How did Mr. Bridges get out of jail?

Henry Ball paid his $5,000 bail to get him out of jail.

Has Mr. Bridges stolen any property of value from you or your father?

Yes. Laser range finders, high dollar aluminum gun cases, other hard gun cases, scope rings, and at least a dozen scopes.

Are you aware of the facts and circumstances surrounding Toby Bridges leaving Dixie Gun Works?

No. Not exactly, but from what I have heard, it was partly due to taking deer out of state without a hunting license or hunting out of state without a hunting license.

Are you aware of the facts and circumstances surrounding Toby Bridges leaving Olin-Winchester?

No, just that he stated that he left Olin-Winchester.

Are you aware of the facts and circumstances surrounding Toby Bridges leaving Bass Pro?

No, just that he left Bass Pro.

Are you aware of the facts and circumstances surrounding Toby Bridges leaving Knight Rifles?

According to Mr. Bridges, for what that is worth, he was fired because he pushed to hard to get Knight to look at our smokeless muzzleloader in 1996.

Are you aware of the facts of circumstances surrounded Toby Bridges leaving Savage Arms as a “consultant?”

Yes. Mr. Bridges did not leave Savage Arms, Savage Arms FIRED Mr. Bridges. He was fired for insubordination, failure to follow directives, false billing for bullets, powder, primers, and sabots that he charged Savage for.

Did you or your father employ Toby Bridges? What were the facts and circumstances surrounding his dismissal?

Yes. Mr. Bridges would like to think that he part of some partnership, but he was hired help to perform specific functions. He was FIRED by Henry after failing to perform those specified functions. His services were no longer required after failing to cease and desist the use, experimentation, and advocating of super heavy, duplex, reverse duplex and triplex loads. He refused to cease and desist after more than a year of repeated directives and warnings. He became belligerent, condescending, insulting, and hostile when directed and warned to stop with the crazy loads. The final straw came in 2004, when in his own words via fax, he stated that "he would be working with a well known and established name in the muzzleloading industry" to assist them in designing around our and Savage's patents, to develop a smokeless muzzleloader.

After the dismissal, did Toby Bridges attempt to extort money from you or your father, also known as blackmail?

Yes. Mr. Bridges demanded $50,000 or he in his own words "would make sure that our patents were not worth the paper they were written on".

How did Mr. Bridges say he would do that?

He stated he would send his press release to every major written publication in the country. He would also send it to every game department in the country. He would also send it to every arms manufacturer, muzzleloader manufacturer, every bullet and powder manufacturer, every major sporting goods distributor and retailer chain, and anyone else that he had contact with over the years. His intent was to kill the Savage muzzleloader by killing off demand for it in the market.

Has Toby Bridges attempted to extort money from Savage Arms, to your knowledge?

Yes, but for a much higher dollar amount.

Toby Bridges claims to be a “muzzleloading expert.” Is this correct?

Yes. Mr. Bridges claims to be "the country's top muzzleloader expert". I know of no other source that has made such claims about him.

Toby Bridges claims to have fired some 36,000 rounds through Ball-patented Savage 10ML-II muzzleloaders. Are you aware of these claims?

Yes. But I seriously doubt that it is near that high.

Why do you doubt that?

Simple math. He would have had to fire one shot, every 20 minutes or so, 7 days a week 8 hours a day, or something approaching that.

Has Toby Bridges ever conveyed to you any observed problem with breechplug erosion in Savage 10ML-II, either verbally or in writing?

Never, notta, zip, never ever.

Let me get this straight. Toby Bridges NEVER told you of ANY EROSION problem ever with the Savage 10ML-II? Never? This is over how many years?

In the 8 years or so since Mr. Bridges has been shooting our custom-built and Savage muzzleloaders he has never ever spoken a single word to anyone about an erosion problem.

Did Toby Bridges ever convey to you, either verbally or in writing, any safety problems or concerns over the many years of his testing and demonstrating this gun?

He has never ever uttered one word about any potential safety problems or perceived safety problems with the Savage muzzleloader. None, notta, zip.

When did Toby Bridges attacks against you, your father, and Savage Arms commence?

Immediately after being fired, Mr. Bridges issued ultimatums, that if he was not paid the money he demanded, on 24 August 2004 (I think it was) he would issue the first of a series of press releases and plaster photos and "his" story all over the internet and via e-mails.

What exactly is "his story?"

Only Mr. Bridges knows the real truth. The “story” he told us was that he was testing a new polymer and sabot design for Del Ramsey of MMP, to see how much pressure it would take before it blew. There is another “story” he came up with many months later, along the lines that he was putting on a "demonstration" for some MO state troopers or DNR officers or something like that. Like I said only Mr. Bridges knows the truth and you can't count on getting it out of him.

What do you think he meant by “see how much pressure”? Did Bridges, to your knowledge, have any pressure testing equipment such as piezo-electric transducer outfitted barrels, or perhaps a strain gage system?

I think that maybe he meant, by seeing at what power charge, with several given powders, the sabot would let go. The only piece of electronic equipment that Mr. Bridges owns to my knowledge is a Chrony chronograph. To my knowledge he does not have and has not had any pressure testing equipment of any kind.

Then how could one determine any specific pressure?

I guess he was using his “keen eye in a hog lot” method that he has bragged about? It is my opinion that he was attempting to use feet per second to form some strange kind of pressure equation.

Let me understand the timing of all this. Toby Bridges destroyed this piece of property owned by Savage Arms exactly when?

It is my understanding it happened the same day that he notified me via the e-mail that I forwarded to you. It was 17th of March 2004, I believe.

What was his demeanor when he reported it?

According to Henry Ball, who called him immediately upon notification, he was joking and laughing during the conversation. I gathered from the conversation, that he was not upset or shook up about it at all. I did not talk to him personally at that moment.

Did he claim any injuries? Bumps, bruises, scratches? Anything at all?

No, he has never claimed any kind of injury at all. Not a single scratch, bump, or bruise.

Did Bridges express concern about the safety of the gun, even AFTER he managed to destroy one?

No, He did not express any concerns at all. Bridges never uttered a single word about any safety after he destroyed that Savage. That is, until after he was terminated.

Not in May, 2004, June, 2004, July, 2004, or at ANY time until his blackmail attempts started?

Exactly.

In all the six years since Savage Arms began production of the 10ML and 10ML-II, with thousands of guns in daily use-- to the very best of your knowledge, has ANYONE, anywhere, anytime EVER managed to rupture a Savage 10ML series barrel, under ANY circumstances including double loading and shooting out ramrods other than claimed by Bridges in his “pressure testing”?

To my knowledge, no one other than Mr. Bridges has ever managed to rupture a barrel on any Savage muzzleloader. There have been a very few that have managed to bulge their barrel slightly, due to the negligent shooting out of ramrods, double charges, etc., but NO single other barrel has ever had a rupture, crack, split, or fissure of any kind despite horrible user error.

Were Mr. Bridges’ extortion attempts against you or your father successful?

No, we will never give in to the likes of Mr. Bridges.

Are you willing to attest to all the above under oath, in a court of law?

ABSO-DAMN-LUTELY.

Do I have your full permission to publish and otherwise disseminate your testimony as stated here?

Yes.

Thank you, Mr. Ball. It seems to me that truth is Mr. Bridges’ only true enemy. Those that need to gain further knowledge of Mr. Bridges past exploits and character are quite free to do their own independent fact-finding. I find it all rather sad.

 

[LarryFox1]

All i know for a fact ,is that a guy came into my shop with the Savage ML that had been blow apart so badly to the right hand side ,that one could have nearly drop a 12 GA shotgun shell into the open Split.I ask him where was the Breech Plug at.His reply was he did not know ,that it either blew out or fell out of the split,in which case he did not know.I ask him if he over loaded it or had something lodge in it after it had loaded.His answer was a big fat NO and was very angry about this gun coming apart like that and told me he was half a mind to,take the thing to savage arms himself and RAM in UP there U-Know.The guy, i know for a fact has been shooting MLer's for a very long time and knows what he is doing or i should say did know what he was doing.For if he had not Past way,i am sure he would have save a piece of the gun to RAM it up any body's else U-KNOW that would say diffrent .I have seen 1 other Savage Muzzle Loader that split along the side just in front of the Breech Plug, but it was not as bad as the other one was.But this Guy had his replace from where he got it from so he is happy.
Now don't try again to say it is not so.For i know it is so and like i said.
IT IS NOT SOUP YET

 

[RandyWakeman]

Originally posted by LarryFox1@Jul 15 2005, 07:45 AM
The guy, i know for a fact has been shooting MLer's for a very long time and knows what he is doing or i should say did know what he was doing.

There must be a reason people brag about "knowing what they are doing"-- when they obviously don't. Folks will brag about "shooting muzzleloaders for ten years," yet nobody brags about being a freshman in high school for ten years.

Just the basis of driving a car for many years does not qualify you as a good driver, automatically give you the knowledge to repair them, much less design them.

Being able to say only that something is "not soup" is fine if you are an aspiring chef, but has no relevance to modern gun design.

The proof that the Savage 10ML-II is the safest muzzleloader ever made is in the yield and tensile strength of the parent materials, the barrel design parameters exceeding 300% of allowed loads, and the 100% proof testing of the guns.

It isn't just the safest muzzleloader ever made, it is the safest firearm ever made.

The Overbuilt, Exceedingly Generous 10ML-II Barrel Design

When designing a barrel and suitable thickness for a given load, Lame's equation is one of the design components.

The above data is the typical mechanical properties of commonly available 416SS. This specific data refers to “Carpenter Stainless Type 416 BQ.”

Ultimate tensile strength is up to 206 kilopounds per square inch (ksi), which is 206,000 PSI. Generally, modern gun barrel materials exceed 105,000 PSI yield strength. Elasticity must be maintained in gun barrels, and the range of 26-32 Rc (Rockwell C scale) hardness has been determined as the appropriate, safe tradeoff.

Using an internal pressure in excess of the 10ML-II maximum proof load, 50,000 PSI, and an allowable tensile stress of the typical gun barrel .2% yield strength above, 105,000 PSI (105 ksi) the figures have been plugged into Lame’s equation using an internal diameter of .505 inches.

Using these precise values, the result from Lame’s Equation shows a desired minimum wall thickness of .171 inches, and a barrel OD of .848 inches.

The wall thickness in the pressurized steel tubes program used is from Wm. C. Davis, Jr. It calculates by Lame’s Equation the desired minimum thickness of a tube subjected to internal pressure, and the criterion assumed is that the tangential stress area at the inner surface of the tube may not exceed the specified allowable tensile stress of the material. (Thick-walled tubes can withstand higher pressures than those indicated without bursting).

Inspection of the above shows that the Savage 10ML-II barrel has FAR more than this recommended minimum wall thickness in ANY part of its breech plug inclusive of the unthreaded portion or ANY primary combustion area, about 30% more thickness than required, and the 50,000 PSI value used to determine “this” minimum wall thickness not ONLY exceeds ANY Savage 10ML-II approved load, it also exceeds the highest reading ever recorded by Savage’s 10ML-II proof load—which happens to be in excess of a 55% overcharge of propellant by weight.

Despite all this, Savage Arms does not allow any charges in excess of recommended loads, nor does Savage Arms allow the use of any sub-bases or other materials beneath a bare sabot-- and specifically disclaims the use of sub-bases or other such materials.

For those that have been stunned by the Savage 10ML-II’s ability to withstand 129,000 PSI in destructive testing—maybe now you really shouldn’t be?

As this information validates, the 10ML was designed from the beginning to be the world’s safest muzzleloader, and from Henry Ball to Savage Arms Company, the criteria was to err only on the side of strength and safety. There was a lot of thought that went into this design and testing-- nothing was thrown together by happenstance.




© 2003-2005 by Randy Wakeman



A special word of thanks goes out to Mr. Daniel Lilja, proprietor of Lilja Precision Rifle Barrels-- manufacturer of some of the finest and most accurate barrels in the world, for his kind assistance in supplying barrel design information. Information about Lilja barrels is found at http://www.riflebarrels.com . Mr. Lilja also has some fine articles on the fine art of barrel making on his site, regarding Barrel Making, Bullets & Ballistics, Long-range Shooting, and an excellent collection of hunting, shooting, and fishing stories that you may find of interest.



Postscript:

Several people have inquired about the "torture testing" inflicted on the 10ML-II by Savage Arms, prior to releasing it for sale to the consumer. Henry Ball's description follows. Please note that this was all done via remote firing in secured conditions, and is in no way an allowed procedure by Savage Arms-- nor license to ever exceed Savage's 10ML-II recommended loads. It is mentioned here for those who have expressed more than a casual interest in the 10ML-II's background.

Pressures during this torture sequence were recorded by radial transducer.

Initially, the 10ML-II was fired with a maximum recommended charge of IMR-4227 and a Hornady 300 gr. .452 MMP saboted bullet.

Then, the 300XTP was fired with a series of DOUBLE charges of powder. This pushed the pressures up into the 85,000 PSI range, with no damage to the test rifles. . No damage to the rifles was detected. The tests were conducted by Mark Kweicien.

Tests continued, pushing pressures up to 129,000 PSI. Tests were conducted on both Type I and Type II (current 10ML-II) rifles with the same results. No damage to the rifles.

This type of design integrity is unparalleled in the muzzleloading industry, a feat that has been replicated by no other production muzzleloader made today. On a consumer level, Savage recommended loads fall into the mid 30,000 PSI envelope. It is this type of prerelease testing, to over 250% of service load levels and absurd triple powder loads that offers today's savvy muzzleloading enthusiast a level of safety and quality never before obtained in a production rifle.

 

[LarryFox1]

Some people brag about this and that so you say, that they know very little about.HUMMM now just point out the Data that you came up yourself.Now don't tell me of some other data that you took from some one else's work use only the data that you came up with from your own little self and derive at your own self, not a copy and paste .Doing other wise you fit the very Mold you stated above.I know what i have seen and i do not need a so call self pro-claim expert such as yourself to tell me what it is that i have seen with my own eye's thank you

 

[RandyWakeman]

Originally posted by LarryFox1@Jul 15 2005, 02:19 PM
HUMMM now just point out the Data that you came up yourself.Now don't tell me of some other data that you took from some one else's work  use only the data that you  came up with from your own little self and derive at your own self

You have just read it.

If you'd like more: http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2h.muzzleloader.htm .

Larry, you just aren't soup yet.

 

[LarryFox1]

Originally posted by RandyWakeman+Jul 15 2005, 03:28 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RandyWakeman @ Jul 15 2005, 03:28 PM)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-LarryFox1

@Jul 15 2005, 02:19 PM
HUMMM now just point out the Data that you came up yourself.Now don't tell me of some other data that you took from some one else's work  use only the data that you  came up with from your own little self and derive at your own self

You have just read it.

If you'd like more: http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2h.muzzleloader.htm .

Larry, you just aren't soup yet.

[/b]

Do you pro-claim to be this Chuck Hawks? All i see is you interviewing someone else , i see no data that you derive at your ownself.Randy in case you don't see it are can not see it.But you your ownself are NOT SOUP YET

.The more you post of someones else's work and are data just proves my point about you.

I grow tired of playing this word game with you,so be a good little boy and take your little cars and trucks and go play in the street's.But feel free to post other folks work so as to make yourself feel big .

 

[RandyWakeman]

Just what the world needs-- another guy that calls himself a gunsmith that can't understand how a gun works.

I can't help you with your reading disorder, Larry, nor what is so very painfully obvious-- you have contributed absolutely nothing to this thread.

 

[LarryFox1]

Originally posted by RandyWakeman@Jul 15 2005, 11:01 PM
Just what the world needs-- another guy that calls himself a gunsmith that can't understand how a gun works.

I can't help you with your reading disorder, Larry, nor what is so very painfully obvious-- you have contributed absolutely nothing to this thread.

Ya Randy you are just what the world needs.Another big mouth piece for some company .i guess it makes you feel big quoteing from data that you did not take your ownself and are not even capable of taking your own self.
Yes you have contributed nothing of value to this thread unless proveing what kind of smart *ss you really are .I use to read some of your stuff and thought you were somebody.Boy was i ever so fool.You are no more than a ME 2 DOG.
A dog that nerver strikes a Track nor Trees on it's own a dog that just runs with the pack and makes alot of fuss] Yep you are a Me 2 Dog because it fits you to the tee

 

[RandyWakeman]

Larry,

You have been off topic from the start, rude, and have done nothing but tried to hijack this thread. It is MY thread. Check the rules of conduct on this board if you need help.

Please leave it. If you want to send hate mail or continue with personal comments-- please take it to private e-mail / hate mail.

 

[LarryFox1]

Originally posted by RandyWakeman@Jul 16 2005, 10:28 PM
Larry,

You have been off topic from the start, rude, and have done nothing but tried to hijack this thread. It is MY thread. Check the rules of conduct on this board if you need help.

Please leave it. If you want to send hate mail or continue with personal comments-- please take it to private e-mail / hate mail.

Randy i reply in this thread that i had seen 2 Savage MLer's spit /blown apart ,you on the other hand,tried or imply that i had not seen this.Anytime when someone tries to say that a guy not not see this or that.Will invoke a SLAM,i have no hate for you,but i do dislike you trying to prove your point via implying that you are the upper most man in gun knowledge and that what i saw/seen was not infront of my own eyes.Feel free to carry on in this thread,just leave me alone in it or i will return to it.
Fair Enought??

 

[TNDEERHUNTER]

Guys lets please stay with the facts and not the personal attacks. This is a good topic. I think this should be discussed, as long as we stay with the thread.

Thank you
TNDEERHUNTER

 

[spectr17]

Larry, if you return to this thread to continue the pissing match you're not going to be around here long. You've made your point.