You decide, as Fox News says...is waterboarding right or wrong?

Orygun

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
and how we swore we would never stoop to that level.[/b]
Um, read up on your history or talk to some vets who served in the Pacific. We did a LOT of stuff to captured Japanese. yet on the whole we still managed to treat them infintely better than they did to captured GIs.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
If we do it to them, they will do it to us[/b]
Imagine how it would suck if all they did was pour water down our servicemen's noses.

What else could they do???: Decapitation on video, dragging burned carcasses of civilians around town and hanging them from a bridge. There is absolutely no way to lower the bar with them.

If you can legally pay to have it done to you in the Bay Area than it is not torture.
 



1fitspirit

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hartseeker @ Apr 2 2008, 06:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gwhunter69 @ Apr 2 2008, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I do not know what shoving a hose up a Marine's butt has to do with waterboarding. But last time I heard waterboarding causes no physical or long term psychological damage, but even if it did I would support doing whatever it took to get information if it saves American lives.[/b]
Ah, there's the rub. People like 1fit don't give a rat's ass about saving American lives. Their only concern is the wellbeing of the poor terrorists.
[/b][/quote]
I care about much more than you can imagine. People like you can't see beyond the end of your noses.
 

1fitspirit

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gwhunter69 @ Apr 2 2008, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
...but even if it did I would support doing whatever it took to get information if it saves American lives.[/b]
So the ends do justify the means to most of the conservatives here...there goes the neighborhood, and any hope of fair treatment for future American prisoners.
 

1fitspirit

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orygun @ Apr 2 2008, 07:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
and how we swore we would never stoop to that level.[/b]
If you can legally pay to have it done to you in the Bay Area than it is not torture.
[/b][/quote]

The best response to a post since I've been a member here!
 

Sodhunter

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1fitspirit @ Apr 2 2008, 09:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gwhunter69 @ Apr 2 2008, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
...but even if it did I would support doing whatever it took to get information if it saves American lives.[/b]
So the ends do justify the means to most of the conservatives here...there goes the neighborhood, and any hope of fair treatment for future American prisoners.
[/b][/quote]
You actually believe that the way we treat prisoners will change the way the terrorists or any other enemy for that matter will treat American prisoners? We treat prisoners fairly because we have morals and integrity. No matter what we do the terrorists will torture and degrade us. There has never been ANY enemy that treats their prisoners better than us. That is a FACT. Next you'll want us to give them conjugal visits and icecream. What a bunch of pansyasses. It's war for crying out loud.
 

Hartseeker

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1fitspirit @ Apr 2 2008, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I care about much more than you can imagine. People like you can't see beyond the end of your noses.[/b]
And people like you can't see beyond their bleeding hearts. Please explain to us how us not conducting waterboarding (which is not torture) is going to cause those oh-so-moral terrorist animals to treat our people better. Here's a clue: They don't kidnap our people in order to tickle them. They kidnap them FOR THE PURPOSE OF DOING HORRIBLE THINGS TO THEM. But that's ok with you. As long as we don't splash a little water on their faces or stack them in naked human pyramids they can go on sawing off people's heads and cutting off fingers to send to the victim's families.


 

easymoney

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And of course the terrorists aren't using any means of torture now, or beheading innocent civilians, or blowing up civilians using their own children as bombs, or poisoning their own people... Some people just don't get it, terrorists do not play by the rule book that civilized nations do, nor do they have any quams about using any means the can to TERRORISE the free world.
They hate us and want all non muslims killed...
Liberals really don't care what they do as long as no ones feelings are hurt...
 

chuckslayer

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Cheerleaders for the enemy...they'rte all over the place !

Hartseeker..I could not have said it better myself ! I just just wonder if we go back through the posts of the various bleeding hearts, will we find many places where they have assailed the enemy for their torture of American captives ? Will we find many posts where they give
the credit they deserve to our brave men & women in Iraq and Afghanistan ?
I don't recall any of them ever saying that the terrorists got what they deserved when they have come face-to-face with our troops !
Do they even know that "waterboarding" has been done to thousands of American troops that have been involved in Special Ops training ?

Given the many posts I have seen where the bleeding hearts are actually trying to "cover" for the enemy...and the very few, if any,
posts they have shown that are giving praise to our troops and their leaders...surely it should come as no surprise that some of us would begin to wonder exactly where the "bleeding heart's" loyalties really lie...

Should interrogating be done , using CS gas ? Why not; every soldier or Marine goes through it ?
Should the terrorist prisoners be housed in non climate conditioned tents in either arctic or desert conditions ? Why not; many of us
as military were housed in just such a way ? Are the terrorists better than our own troops ? Aparently the Looney Left thinks so !

BTW: Hartseeker; Love your cartoon, had to save it !

Looney Left: Do you REALLY believe that if we treated the terrorist captives even better than they are being treated at Club Gitmo,
that their terrorist bbuddies would suddenly and voluntarily start treating their captives humanely ?
The resort clients at Club Gitmo are provided air conditioned quarters with religiously sensitive meals and are given Korans...

Do you REALLY think the terrorists will provide their captives with air conditioned quarters, furnish Kosher meals for the Jews, and pass out free Bibles and Torahs ?

If you suffer from that kind of delusion..you may be smoking stronger stuff than most lefties are !
 

gwhunter69

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
So the ends do justify the means to most of the conservatives here...there goes the neighborhood, and any hope of fair treatment for future American prisoners.[/b]
Ah, here is where your argument falls apart as the straw man that it is. We treat them nice and they will treat us nice. Hogwash. If your stomach can handle it, try looking up the torture techniques used by these animals in the Iraq War alone. Trust me, I have done a little research on it and I will take waterboarding every single time and twice as much. So, do not throw up ridiculous straw men arguments that are 100% false. These people hate anyone who is NOT Muslim and treat them horribly. So, unless you want to convert to Islam, which is impossible in your particular situation for obvious reason, I seriously suggest that you open your eyes to the reality of the situation and take your head out of the sand. You are severly niave if you think negotiation and good will is an option with these fanatic. You would have an easier time convincing Jerry Falwell that Jesus was gay. That is my 2-cents on this issue.
 

chuckslayer

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If all of us here were lined up[ and told that we were going to be interrogated..no choosing not to; but we can choose where and by whom...

We can choose whether it will be with Al Queda in Iraq or by our guys at Gitmo !

Which waiting line would be longer ? ....Do we "get it " now ?
 

chuam

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It really has nothing to do with if the prisoners are terrorists or enemy soldiers. We have always held the moral high ground. We did this in WWI, WWII, Korea, etc. We are the ones who say we are the beacon of freedom and we are the ones who hold ourselves above the evils that our enemies do. We convicted japanese soldiers of war crimes for waterboarding during WWII.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Sen. John McCain is leading the charge against so-called "torture" techniques allegedly used by U.S. interrogators, insisting that practices like sleep deprivation and withholding medical attention are not only brutal - they simply don't work to persuade terrorist suspects to give accurate information.[/b]
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Waterboarding is a form of torture no matter how it is done and should be a prohibited among U.S. military interrogation practices, Republican presidential candidate John McCain said today.

“Anyone who knows what waterboarding is could not be unsure. It is a horrible torture technique used by Pol Pot and being used on Buddhist monks as we speak,” said McCain after a campaign stop at Dordt College here.[/b]
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Sen. John McCain, who spent 5 1/2 years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, reminded an audience Thursday that some Japanese were tried and hung for torturing American prisoners during World War II with techniques that included waterboarding. "I would also hope that that no president would want to be associated with a technique which was invented in the Spanish Inquisition.[/b]
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
“When I was imprisoned, I took heart from the fact that I knew my North Vietnamese captors would never be treated like I was treated by them,” McCain said, who has pointed out that his opposition to torture among Republican presidential candidates is based on military experience not shared by his opponents. “There are much better and more effective ways to get information. You torture someone long enough, he’ll tell whatever he thinks you want to know.”[/b]

If we are going to justify doing things in secret to "keep the country free" then where does it stop. The KGB took people downstairs in Lubyanka prison and put a bullet in the back of their head. I'm sure they thought they did it for the good of the country.

Anyway, it seems that all of you torturers think that its a magic bullet standing between us and obliteration, and according to experts, its just not true.

It doesn't directly make me less free, but it makes me part of a nation doing things that don't make me proud. And its all part of a pattern that makes me less free. Government can torture whomever it wants to, wiretap my phone without a warrant, force the library to turn over a list of books I've read and make it a violation for the librarian to even tell me about it. All of that shit is justified because its supposed to be good for me and keep me free. I can't believe that so many of you can't see the problem.

Don't bother to tell me that they fly aircraft into buildings- I already know that. I just don't think that justifies us flying aircraft into their buildings full of civilians.

Historically, we have had a moral authority that was priceless in the world community. For a very short while, we have been the lone superpower and could get away with acting like we didn't have to care what people think of us. If that period is not over, it soon will be. If we aren't any different from the barbarians, then we'll be regarded as barbarians.
 

jmabbott888

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Don't bother to tell me that they fly aircraft into buildings- I already know that. I just don't think that justifies us flying aircraft into their buildings full of civilians.[/b]
no, not a plane full of civillians but I'd be game for puff with a load of ammo making straffing runs up & down streets.

If we catch a terrorist, cs, waterboarding, chinese water torture or watever should be fair game. Even if we did put a bullet in the back of the head it would still not be anything near what they do & still will do to a soldier if caught. I do like the idea of cs gas, no permanent injuries & at least in my experience in bootcamp it does get your attention.
 

chuckslayer

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I think John McCain is wrong on that one..such a disagreement is allowed in conservative circles..

He is wrong on this one..but not nearly as wrong as the Democrats on most everything else...
 

Coues

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
It doesn't directly make me less free, but it makes me part of a nation doing things that don't make me proud. And its all part of a pattern that makes me less free.[/b]
I feel the same way about killing unborn babies in the name of convenience and profit.
 

1fitspirit

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Apparently, holding the moral high ground does not matter to torture lovers. They just want to run around the world doin' whatever the heck they please, to anybody, for no reason, just because they can....know what they are? Bullies...arrogant knuckle dragging redneck cowboy wannabes that try so hard to emulate the swaggering jerk who is in the White House right now. You know, the walking talking advertisement for bullheaded idiot moron. Their own nominee says it's torture. Of ANYONE who has said anything at all on the issue, McCain oughta know what is and isn't torture. You gonna not vote for him because he is telling it like it is on this point? No, you won't. You'll politely say that it is just a minor difference of opinion within your party, and that it really isn't a big deal. After all, who's gonna make us change? I hope that the day doesn't come when someone takes another swing at us, trying to knock the chip off our collective shoulders that GW Bush put there. You keep picking on someone, sooner or later they will swing back. I sincerely doubt anyone could take us out, but we can be hurt, and bad. With much of the world tired of our attitude, where would we turn for support? You think we could put together another coalition to go invade someone else? Not in the next 25 years. Bleeding heart liberal? You damn right I am. Terrorist lover? Not a chance. I am sick and tired of the current administration and their layman apologists, their disdain for the rest of the world, their mindless babble about fighting "them" over there instead of over here, the endless threats of impending doom unless we all vote Republican, their destruction of the principles of freedom that this country was founded on, and all the rest of the crap that's being dished out from 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW in Washington, DC. You guys just line up at the trough of lunacy and munch away, then accuse anyone else that isn't a member of your cult of being anti-American or some other BS. This jerk has run up a moral debt that will take us generations to overcome, and most of you either don't see it, or just ignore it, hoping it will just go away. And you say I am the one with my head in the sand...You might as well drink the Kool-Aid now.

Damn, that felt GOOD!
 

Hartseeker

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1fitspirit @ Apr 3 2008, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Apparently, holding the moral high ground does not matter to torture lovers. They just want to run around the world doin' whatever the heck they please, to anybody, for no reason, just because they can....know what they are? Bullies...arrogant knuckle dragging redneck cowboy wannabes that try so hard to emulate the swaggering jerk who is in the White House right now. You know, the walking talking advertisement for bullheaded idiot moron. Their own nominee says it's torture. Of ANYONE who has said anything at all on the issue, McCain oughta know what is and isn't torture. You gonna not vote for him because he is telling it like it is on this point? No, you won't. You'll politely say ithin your party, and that it that it is just a minor difference of opinion wreally isn't a big deal. After all, who's gonna make us change? I hope that the day doesn't come when someone takes another swing at us, trying to knock the chip off our collective shoulders that GW Bush put there. You keep picking on someone, sooner or later they will swing back. I sincerely doubt anyone could take us out, but we can be hurt, and bad. With much of the world tired of our attitude, where would we turn for support? You think we could put together another coalition to go invade someone else? Not in the next 25 years. Bleeding heart liberal? You damn right I am. Terrorist lover? Not a chance. I am sick and tired of the current administration and their layman apologists, their disdain for the rest of the world, their mindless babble about fighting "them" over there instead of over here, the endless threats of impending doom unless we all vote Republican, their destruction of the principles of freedom that this country was founded on, and all the rest of the crap that's being dished out from 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW in Washington, DC. You guys just line up at the trough of lunacy and munch away, then accuse anyone else that isn't a member of your cult of being anti-American or some other BS. This jerk has run up a moral debt that will take us generations to overcome, and most of you either don't see it, or just ignore it, hoping it will just go away. And you say I am the one with my head in the sand...You might as well drink the Kool-Aid now.

Damn, that felt GOOD![/b]
On one hand you say that if we disagree with McCain on torture we're just politely saying "that it is just a minor difference of opinion really isn't a big deal." Then you go on to screech that we might as well drink the Kool-Aid.

Which is it? Either we can disagree with some of McCain's opinions or we're Kool-Aid drinkers who blindly follow whatever the party leader says.

Don't bother to answer. We already know by the hysterical emotional tone of your quoted rant that you haven't got a clue. And once more, waterboarding isn't torture.

 

sdbowyer

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1fitspirit @ Apr 3 2008, 08:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I hope that the day doesn't come when someone takes another swing at us, trying to knock the chip off our collective shoulders that GW Bush put there. You keep picking on someone, sooner or later they will swing back.[/b]

Wow, is that what they were doing the first time they took a swing at us? Trying to knock off that big chip Bush put up in 9 months? Oh the guilt and drama.
 

sdbowyer

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chuam @ Apr 3 2008, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
If we are going to justify doing things in secret to "keep the country free" then where does it stop.[/b]
First you'll have to tell us where, in your mind, it STARTED. But be careful, I don't want you to tell us if it will put you in more danger. What with the agents on to you and monitoring your every move and all. I just can't fathom how you find the courage to press on and take such great risks in your position.
 

chuckslayer

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sdbowyer;
I agree with you..I don't think we were attacked because of anything like the Pres having "a chip on his shoulder"..
Obviously, were were attacked because for the previous 8.5 years, the terrorists had operated with impunity against us !
Thus, in true Islamofacist manner, their attacks kept escalating..until they had to deal with a President that refused to be cowed !

Let's look at the record;

Feb 26, 1993 An Egyptian terrorist group, led by Ramzi Yousef and financed by Khalid Shaikh Mohammed,bombed the World Trade Center. The Clinton administration preferred to treat this as a random act of lawlessness, otherwise they may have had to do something "international" about it ! ...(Kahlid Shaikh Mohammed is now a guest of "Club Gitmo"!)

June 1993 A plan by Islamofacists to blow up the UN Building, FBI Center. Lincoln and Holland tunnels..foiled by alert agents, still
no admission of terrorism by Clinton admin.

In 1994 Philippine intel foiled a plot by Islamofacists to murder the Pope on his visit there. (Bojinka plot)

June 6, 1995 Was the day "operation Manila" (Ramzi Yousef sponsored) plot was uncovered. The plan would have blown up 12 jumbo airliners flying from the far east to the US..at least 4,000 passengers would have died..say nothing if the airliner were exploded oevr population centers.

June 25, 1996 Al Khobar (US barracks) in Saudi Arabia bombed, 19 American military killed, 400 wounded.

August 6, 1998 US embassies in Nairobi and Dar-es-Salam both bombed by Islamofacist terrorists; 224 dead, 4,500 wounded.

In 1999, Chechen Islamofacist terrorists attack apartment building in Russia..kill 300 ! Clinton admin says..DUH !

Oct 2000 USS Cole attacked in the port of Aden. Seventeen killed, 39 injured. (Clinton admin ponders; "why are they mad at us ?").

During the same time, plots to bomb targets in Paris, Strasbourg uncovered ..Clinton admin still don't get it !

Also in 2000.."Millennium" attack plans for the US are uncovered..



So where was Pres Clinton when these attacks were going on ? .....

In 1995, The Clinton admin committed US forces to a war in Bosnia. US military was ordered to attack Christian Serbs...in order to make the world "safe for Islamic fighters"..

On Feb 6, 1996.. the Sudanese ambassador offered Osama bin Laden to the Clinton admin..on a "silver platter"...and was abruptly turned down !

During the rest of 1996, Clinton was absorbed with Ms Lewinski.

during 1997/1998 Clinton was busy lying about stains on a blue dress.....




So, 1Fit says they attacked us because Pres Bush " had a chip on his shoulder"...WHAT A STERLING EXAMPLE OF GULLABILITY !

What kind of a "chip" did the following have on their shoulders ?

A) Danny Perl, reporter..beheaded

B) Four Christian school girls in Sudan, beheaded on their way to school.

C) Nick Berg, businessman..beheaded.

D) Thousands killed at WTC on 9/11.

E) Missionary man & wife in Philippines..she freed by Filipino troops..he, beheaded.

F) Dozens of people on board flight #93 over a Pennsylvania cornfield.

G) London bus passengers

H) Spanish railroad travellers.

I) Israeli athletes at the Munich olympics.

J) Youngsters in a teen center in Tel Aviv

K) Patrons in a culb in Bali, Indonesia

L) Dozens killed on plane flown into Pentagon.

..Please identify the chips..Pine..Maple..teak..Mahogany..that these victims were carrying on their shoulder !

1Fit..I could go on all day, listing those that in your view, apparently had a "chip on their shoulder", but I think most anybody reading
"gets it"..that Islamic terrorists strike quicker at weakness than at strength.
That is why we see them bombing pizza parlors, civilian airliners and day care centers...rather than facing our Marines or Army forces.."head on and manly"..
 

gwhunter69

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Apparently, holding the moral high ground does not matter to torture lovers. They just want to run around the world doin' whatever the heck they please, to anybody, for no reason, just because they can....know what they are? Bullies...arrogant knuckle dragging redneck cowboy wannabes that try so hard to emulate the swaggering jerk who is in the White House right now. You know, the walking talking advertisement for bullheaded idiot moron. Their own nominee says it's torture. Of ANYONE who has said anything at all on the issue, McCain oughta know what is and isn't torture. You gonna not vote for him because he is telling it like it is on this point? No, you won't. You'll politely say that it is just a minor difference of opinion within your party, and that it really isn't a big deal. After all, who's gonna make us change? I hope that the day doesn't come when someone takes another swing at us, trying to knock the chip off our collective shoulders that GW Bush put there. You keep picking on someone, sooner or later they will swing back. I sincerely doubt anyone could take us out, but we can be hurt, and bad. With much of the world tired of our attitude, where would we turn for support? You think we could put together another coalition to go invade someone else? Not in the next 25 years. Bleeding heart liberal? You damn right I am. Terrorist lover? Not a chance. I am sick and tired of the current administration and their layman apologists, their disdain for the rest of the world, their mindless babble about fighting "them" over there instead of over here, the endless threats of impending doom unless we all vote Republican, their destruction of the principles of freedom that this country was founded on, and all the rest of the crap that's being dished out from 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW in Washington, DC. You guys just line up at the trough of lunacy and munch away, then accuse anyone else that isn't a member of your cult of being anti-American or some other BS. This jerk has run up a moral debt that will take us generations to overcome, and most of you either don't see it, or just ignore it, hoping it will just go away. And you say I am the one with my head in the sand...You might as well drink the Kool-Aid now.

Damn, that felt GOOD![/b]
I thought we were talking about waterboarding? Apparently not. One point, you claim you are taking the high moral ground??? How so??? You would allow hundreds and thousands of people to die just to avoid waterboarding some guy who wants to exterminate every non-Muslim??? Yes, you are a terrorist lover if you place the comfort of one person, a terrorist, over the lives of innocent Israeli and American men, women and children. If your conscience can handle your "high moral" ground, then sleep well knowing you support the protection of terrorists. Quite frankly, I find it laughable that terrorist are sitting in Gitmo eating McDonalds and receiving all the comforts of life AND bleeding heart irrational people like yourself are more worried about their civil and constitutional rights. Your priorities are all mixed up. If you want to call me and others names like knuckle draggers...go right ahead...coming from the likes of you, I consider that the highest compliment I could receive. I support this country first and foremost. I am sorry you do not, but that is your right to be 100% wrong.
 


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