7 accused of hunting at night and with knives.

[Gunther]

It seems there is some debate on weather he actually had permission to hunt on the property. Read the comments under the article. He is not the ranch owner and he may not actually be the ranch manager. Just someone who lives on the ranch.

 

[dglover]

There is a law that allows a person to kill hogs 24 hours a day with no licence and no pig tags. Dont let the dfg fool you. Now I dont know the details of what these guys were doing exactly and if the law applied to them. the newspaper report dosent seem to support them using the law correctly but I have dealt with the dfg for many years and I can say that the are as full of bs as anybody. I encourage everyone to go to your local dfg office and ask for the dfg's "guidelines for wild pig depredation" you will be amased as to how close to the truth about the law those supossed poachers were using. The dfg dosen always tell the whole story. I for one have been using that law since 96. I have been cited by dfg and subsiquently told by a judge that I commited no crime and was within the law as it applied to me. The dfg thinks this way in my experience, They will cite you for everything and anything. The wardens know that fighting a citation costs as much as pleading guilty. In anysituation its a lose lose for the person on the recieving end. I have been flat out lied to by wardens on many occasions. I hunt often and have come to know many wardens on a first name basis, thus I have had many dealings with them. I have showed the wardens their own department memmo regarging that law and have been told its either expired, invalid, or they have never even seen the document before. My advice dont trust a warden and know the law better than they do. I have posted this full document on calguns in the hunting section. The thread title is "what dfg dosent want you to know" I encourage you all to read it before you cut down a fellow hunter.

I went calguns.net and read your posts about the alleged secret. However your information is very outdated. The memo is from 1998 as well as the regulations. Laws change every year and it is your resposibilty to stay current. That being said the regs you posted state that a permit or immediate take is required to take under depradation and DFG must be notified. It does not apply to everyday hunting but to owners and employees/ agents abiding by the rules and regs set forth in the section. I am a little bothered that at the top of the page you are posting it in the forum for all to annoy wardens with. I would post links to support the DFG but in this case it is not warranted you are your own worst enemy. The last paragraph says it all that failure to comply with the regulation is a misdemeanor. I am wondering if this yahoo is a representation of JHO or just a rogue who doesn't belong. Wardens serve a very important purpose and should be supported by the hunting community not annoyed. Allegations of corruption are usually made by criminals who are ignorant of the laws they are breaking. Gotta call em like I see em and in this case you sound less like a hunter that found a loophole and more like criminal trying to defend his fellow bretheren. :mad-fumin-red:

 

[bigboarstopper]

in responce

In responce to some of the replies to the senate bill 329 (immediate take law) yes the document is old. However It has not been ammended. If it has the department has to notify the public. There has not been any ammentments or changes to the law. I have researched it. The only difference is how the department of fish and game has recodnised it. Like I have said Im not sure if those accused have been using it correctly or not. however If the foreman of the property in questioned used it as it was intended there is no case against him. EVEN if he used a knife to kill the pigs. In the regulation it states that any method can be used thats not specifically prohibited. I used a knife when i was cited and in responce the judge determined that using a knife wasnt "specifically" prohibited. Some may think its a loophole but to the ranch owners I am an official agent for say its an option. I have notified the department within the requierments of a kill and in the document the department is "Required" to do and investigation. To this day 10 years later I have never recieved a call by dfg for anything regarding any of the kills. Nota one. Ill admit im jaded by the dfg. But when Im in the field and a warden says im poaching I get a little pissed off when a warden has no clue about the law when I have been calling them every time I have done this. I get a little upset when I show them their own paperwork that they should have read and they scrach their heads and just cite me anyhow. The situation those accused is simmilar to mine. I was sure I was within the law in all of its descripitions yet I was cited by a warden who didnt think the law existed. I was killing the hogs at night with dogs and a knife. The judge reviewed the case and the law and determined that no crime had been commited. by the way I dont use spell check.

 

[WildlifeBranch]

don't confuse the landowner wild pig "encounter" law with a depredation permit or with sport hunting of wild pigs. they are 3 different things.

 

[bigboarstopper]

please elaborate on the confusion. If im an agent of the property acting in my official capasity and I encounter pigs causing or threatening to cause damage I can persue and kill them 24 hours a day. Black and white.Tell the judge he enterpreted it wrong. I encourage anybody to tell me otherwise. But prove it.

 

[hatchet1]

BIGBOAR, I WOULD NOT LET THE MAN STICK IT TO ME EITHER.. THAT BEING SAID,
UNFORTUNATELY,MANY F&G LAWS ARE EXTREMLY VAQUE AND OPEN TO INTERPRETATION BY SAID WARDEN THAT IS QUESTIONING YOU...ITS REALLY A
CRAP SHOOT AS TO HOW IT WILL ALL TURN OUT..SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAD A JUDGE THAT READ THE LAW AS IT WAS WRITTEN AND THEREFORE SIDED WITH YOU.

 

[alleycat]

There is a law that allows a person to kill hogs 24 hours a day with no licence and no pig tags. Dont let the dfg fool you. Now I dont know the details of what these guys were doing exactly and if the law applied to them. the newspaper report dosent seem to support them using the law correctly but I have dealt with the dfg for many years and I can say that the are as full of bs as anybody. I encourage everyone to go to your local dfg office and ask for the dfg's "guidelines for wild pig depredation" you will be amased as to how close to the truth about the law those supossed poachers were using. The dfg dosen always tell the whole story. I for one have been using that law since 96. I have been cited by dfg and subsiquently told by a judge that I commited no crime and was within the law as it applied to me. The dfg thinks this way in my experience, They will cite you for everything and anything. The wardens know that fighting a citation costs as much as pleading guilty. In anysituation its a lose lose for the person on the recieving end. I have been flat out lied to by wardens on many occasions. I hunt often and have come to know many wardens on a first name basis, thus I have had many dealings with them. I have showed the wardens their own department memmo regarging that law and have been told its either expired, invalid, or they have never even seen the document before. My advice dont trust a warden and know the law better than they do. I have posted this full document on calguns in the hunting section. The thread title is "what dfg dosent want you to know" I encourage you all to read it before you cut down a fellow hunter.

Thanks for sharing the info. This seems to have turned into a very constructive thread. So there are at least some judges that understand the rule too. What County did that occurr in? I live in San Jose area and am not sure the Judges here would understand.

Thanks

 

[bigboarstopper]

I recieved my citation an went to court in san benito county.

 

[dglover]

I have said Im not sure if those accused have been using it correctly or not. however If the foreman of the property in questioned used it as it was intended there is no case against him. EVEN if he used a knife to kill the pigs. In the regulation it states that any method can be used thats not specifically prohibited. I used a knife when i was cited and in responce the judge determined that using a knife wasnt "specifically" prohibited. Some may think its a loophole but to the ranch owners I am an official agent for say its an option.

If you are not sure and/ or unfamiliar with the case then why are you so quick to judge those that are paid to protect the sport we love and the game we pursue. I don't beleive many people here are as concerned about the method of take for the hogs as they are about the illegal pursuit of the hogs. The supposed foreman did not have a depradation permit. The hogs were being hunted under the auspices of a guided hunt offered to charity. There is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law and I do not beleive that either one intended guided hunts to be part of the depradation law and it definatley does not apply to the immediate take law.

Ill admit im jaded by the dfg. But when Im in the field and a warden says im poaching I get a little pissed off when a warden has no clue about the law when I have been calling them every time I have done this. I get a little upset when I show them their own paperwork that they should have read and they scrach their heads and just cite me anyhow.

It is the duty of the Game Wardens we employ to investigate suspicious activity. I think I would like to see more proof of the evidence you use to justify being jaded and as rebuttal to inciting others to annoy wardens on the other site. I am not saying that they know everything but am naturally suspicious when you are obviously hunting hogs on fully functioning agricultural operations and the local wardens seem to have no knowledge of depradation permits and immediate take laws. You have stated earlier that you know the wardens on a first name basis. As I am sure that you would not want us to know your name, date of citation, or anything else that we could use to verify you are legitimate. Maybe a few names of the wardens that you seem to have contact with.

Originally Posted by bigboarstopper

I have been flat out lied to by wardens on many occasions. I hunt often and have come to know many wardens on a first name basis, thus I have had many dealings with them.

Then others on here could at least verify your story with the wardens and number of contacts. It stands to reason that if you have that much contact with them and know them by first name due to the frequency of contact they will also know who you are. Espescially considering that your premise for your actions is annoying them.

The situation those accused is simmilar to mine. I was sure I was within the law in all of its descripitions yet I was cited by a warden who didnt think the law existed. I was killing the hogs at night with dogs and a knife. The judge reviewed the case and the law and determined that no crime had been commited.

To me this is proof that our justice system works. I would be thankful that we have the sytem we do and that the judge interpreted the law the same way that you do. You can not operate on the fringe of a regulation and get upset when you are questioned or cited by your actions. The use of dogs and knives is recreational hunting and it is very doubtful that is the spirit of the law as it was written. It sounds as though the judge set precident by using the letter of the law for his interpretaton as you do. If anything you should be happy that you were cited and won your case. Especially here in California were the state tends to lean a little to the left. Our justce system relies on precident cases where interpretation of the law has already been made. Over time the precident may change through actions that are similar to the previous case but vary enough to cause a different interpretation. We need more wardens and better enforcement of the laws that we have as criminals far outweigh the number of wardens we have in this state. Stop waisting their time by trying to annoy them. Instead set up a cooperative effort between you, the ranchers you work for and the wardens to educate ranchers, agents and other wardens on this very subject. This will make it easier for you and others to erradicate the probelm with little to no interference from DFG. After all the goal of the ranchers that employ you is to eliminate the hog population that is damaging their revenue stream right?

 

[dglover]

please elaborate on the confusion. If im an agent of the property acting in my official capasity and I encounter pigs causing or threatening to cause damage I can persue and kill them 24 hours a day. Black and white.Tell the judge he enterpreted it wrong. I encourage anybody to tell me otherwise. But prove it.

Like you said it is in black and white right? First I don't beleive that he was referring specifically to you, but maybe, either way the intent of the comment as I see it in black and white is to say that each is regulated by its own set of circumstances and therefore seperate issues and should not be intermixed.

Immediate kill requires no permit and must be done while the damage is occurring and DFG notification is required next working day.

Depradation permit requires a permit and can be done at anytime after the permit is issued and damage has occurred and DFG notification is required next working day.

Hunting for recreation is what the majority of hunters are doing while pursuing game and subject to different regulations and does not allow the same exceptions, a tag is required and must be mailed upon successful harvest.

You seem pretty defensive for someone so confident that what they are doing is legal and just.

You said prove it. I am with you buddy give us the case number and allow all of us to see for ourselves the judges interpretation. Better yet scan the judgement and post it. Less research that way. Surely after a landmark victory like that you kept it. You have saved the memo for 11 years. That will then prove it once and for all. After all it is public information anyways and you didn't do anything wrong. It just might help someone here by providing them with legal information that could help them.

 

[dglover]

Thanks for sharing the info. This seems to have turned into a very constructive thread. So there are at least some judges that understand the rule too. What County did that occurr in? I live in San Jose area and am not sure the Judges here would understand.

Thanks

Actaully as long he is not pulling anyone's chain and he has actually had interpretation by a judge setting precident, then you could use his case in a legal brief to the judge in your county. However I doubt you would need that with a depradation permit. I personally don't see DFG having the desire or the resources to go after someone that is following the rules that are pretty clear cut. Maybe WildlifeBranch AKA Eric Loft Who is Chief of the CDFG Wildlife Branch could comment more about that. I just read his profile and he clearly states who he is and what he does. That certainly is a very valuable resource to have around here.

 

[dglover]

Here is the link to the page Bigboarstopper refers to: what california dfg dosent want you to know - Page 2 - Calguns.net

 

[Taylor31]

Lock them up and throw away the keys!!!!!!!!!!!!!! maybe while they are in jail they can learn English and how to properly read DFG Reg's...

Wow only in California. I ran cattle in that area for a few years and have lost calving cows, calves, and dogs to hogs. Let us not forget that these hogs are none native and invasive. People like to hunt them, but they deserve no more protection then the Lake Davis Pike. The state should focuse more on how to get our NATIVE deer herds healthy. Just my 2cents

 

[dglover]

The state should focuse more on how to get our NATIVE deer herds healthy. Just my 2cents

That is something I think we can all agree on. Well said! We can only hope we will see the light there.rayin :rayin :rayin :

 

[JNDEER]

I should not have been unclear in my prior post. I did not see who or what there names where, but was emplying that people need to read and understand DFG regulations. If they have trouble understanding English than they need to ask someone for clearity. This was when I was under the assumption that these hunters were hunting and trying to claim that as under a dep permit they had every right to hunt the hogs, and they don't in that matter.

now that more information has come out about they issue i will say this:

The law should be and was written to be interpreted as if everything is Illegal unless otherwise stated in the law. Therefore, the approved methods of take (or ways you can kill) big game DON'T list a knife. Therefore in simple english.......if it is not approved then it is prohibited... simple enough!!!

Also, if that hunter was attempting to use the law that was enacted in 96 and it is like that of what was posted earlier......then using Dogs to hunt down the pigs seems a bit of a stretch to me if you are claiming that those pigs you killed (specifically) were the ones doing the damage to your property??

As far as the other posts about how they are non-native and cause a lot of damage...i agree 100%,..... but i am also a firm believer in the law... they are recongnized as a recreational big game animal (and if they are causing a lot of damage there is a permit you can get to fix your problems)... I just think we as lawful citizens should encourage other hunters to abide by the laws as well, thus my frustration with those who don't

 

[dglover]

This is why it is important to follow the laws before we lose the sport. Rogue hunters and people who want to hunt on the fringe of the regulations are putting all of us in jeopardy: CA: Seven men accused of illegally hunting pigs at night - hunting, sport hunting, sports hunting, C.A.S.H., CASH, wildlife, wildlife management, DNR, DEC, DEP, animals, anim

 

[WildlifeBranch]

dglover-- right, I was not specifically referring to him, but to the overall thread and the intent of someone in the field and taking pigs. Sounds like this fellow has a problem with wardens, and, well, that's his problem.

The "pig matrix" posted is all information that could be gleaned from the Fish and Game Code and regulations summarized in matrix form to distinguish among the 3 categories of take. None of that is a secret, it's just a lot of organization to pull it all together for comparison. In fact, Elliot's memo describes it as "matrix of the authorities" ["authorities" are laws and regulations]

Eric

 

[chap_dog48]

It is just another reason that we need hogs unlisted as a game animal. remember our state Senators are killing all the non-native elk and deer on Santa Rosa Island because they are not native. Pigs are non native and if they were listed as that, then this incident would even happen. In Texas you can kill 20 if you want, every day of the year, spot light them at night, 365 days a year. I guess sucking more money out of hogs is what the government wants not getting rid of the the NON-Native species that bring in a ton of money. If these guys did trespass, or did something wrong then cite them, but for a stupid pig that should even be here that is a hard one to throw the book or slam the ba-jesus out of them. I'm sure someone will post and say some crap about turkey or Rocky Mt Elk in Cal or some other thing that was transplated but a nasty pig. I think they should be treated like coyotes, night hunting on them is allowed in Tehema.

 

[spectr17]

The claim hogs are non native and need to be wiped out kinda clashes with several groups.

Tejon Ranch says they have the hog hunts to rid the ranch of the hogs but then tell you not to shoot wet sows in the orientation? Huh?

Same for the state DFG. Most states like TX and MO say fire away, get rid of them. No tags needed. Not CA, they raise the price of hog tags each year and now it's a cash cow for them here.

 

[dglover]

The claim hogs are non native and need to be wiped out kinda clashes with several groups.

Tejon Ranch says they have the hog hunts to rid the ranch of the hogs but then tell you not to shoot wet sows in the orientation? Huh?

Same for the state DFG. Most states like TX and MO say fire away, get rid of them. No tags needed. Not CA, they raise the price of hog tags each year and now it's a cash cow for them here.

Well put Jesse. I think that it was decided a long time ago that Pigs could be a lucrative big game animal. Here is an example:

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1036&context=vpc6

Native or non native doesn't really matter when there are so many people that either make a living off the game in question or have a supplemental income from them. In order for them to continue this and create a residual income they must ensure survival of their assets. Considering the best pig populations seem to be on private lands I don't think it would make a difference if they opened it up to eliminate them.

Just thinking out loud with a couple of sierra nevada's helping me along but I guess I would be considered non- native as well as most of the people in this forum. Hopefully no one gets any ideas.....:skeered: