spectr17

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Hunting permit system is voided

By Howard Fischer, CAPITOL MEDIA SERVICES

8/21/02

An 11-year-old rule that reserves 90 percent of certain deer and elk hunting permits for Arizonans violates the federal commerce clause, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled Tuesday.

The three-judge panel said the restriction affects interstate travel, discouraging out-of-staters "who want to take advantage of Arizona's excellent hunting opportunities." The judges also noted that because there is a commercial market for things like antlers and hides, the rules impair interstate commerce.

In fact, the judges said, if they permit arbitrary limits here, it would open the door to similar laws in other states.

"Montana could then reserve 90 percent of its trout fishing, California 90 percent of its beach access, Colorado 90 percent of its back country skiing and so on until recreational opportunities and the businesses that served them were partitioned at state lines," wrote Judge Raymond Fisher for the court.

Fisher said the state does have a legitimate interest in regulating hunting to conserve its game population and maintain recreational opportunities for its citizens. He said the court would entertain some "less discriminatory means" than the absolute cap on the number of permits for nonresidents.

A spokesman for the state Game and Fish Department said his agency was still studying the ruling and had no comment.

Fisher said that until 1991 the state distributed limited hunting "tags" through a lottery, without regard to the residency of the applicant. But then came what the court said were some "very vocal" complaints by Arizona hunters, as well as a poll of hunters which showed nearly 75 percent favored a restriction on the number of tags for those who do not live in the state.

The 1991 rule puts a 10 percent cap on the number of tags that could be awarded to nonresidents for hunting bull elk through the state and for antlered deer north of the Colorado River. The Game and Fish Department also set up a system where those who get Arizona hunting licenses but do not get a tag get bonus points -- a system that has resulted in more tags being awarded to Arizonans.

That resulted in a lawsuit by professional hunters and guides who want the meat of the animals, their hide and especially the head and rack of antlers which they can sell at a profit.

Fisher said the Constitution gives Congress the power to regulate commerce. He said that was designed to keep each state from erecting barriers.

The court also noted that Arizona allows the non-edible portions of bull elk and antlered deer to be sold in interstate and international markets.

"By disadvantaging nonresident hunters who seek to engage in this commercial pursuit, Arizona burdens interstate commerce at its point of supply," Fisher wrote.

In sending the case back for trial, the appellate also questioned whether there was really a need for that 90 percent requirement. Fisher said there was evidence that even before the system Arizonans received more than 90 percent of the tags.

"A factfinder reasonably could conclude from this evidence that Arizona's regulation was designed to respond to political pressure from the (Game and Fish) Department's constituency, not to any actual need of Arizonans for more hunting opportunities," he wrote.

Fisher said even if Arizona can show there is some need for state action to ensure that residents have access to recreational hunting, that still leaves the question of whether that is the "least discriminatory alternative" to serve that interest. He said the trial judge may want to look at options, such as a nondiscriminatory version of the bonus point system.

End article

============================================================

Case details can be found at

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/9th/0017082p.pdf

This appears to effect deer, elk and sheep hunters and will make it tougher or near impossible for a sheep tag for residents.

One of the plaintiffs in this case is Jean Taulman who is said to be connected witt USO Outfitters.
 

wmidbrook

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All I can say is....wow!  

This could be a great boon for those of us who travel out of state to hunt.  OR, UT, Wyo, NV, CA, almost all, if not all states, restrict the number of non-res tags---it usually is a big negative for the non-resident....I sure hope this goes thru~!

Just think, most public land is owned by the Federal Gov't and any U.S. citizen should have the same chance to hunt it as far as I'm concerned regardless of what state he lives in.  

Also, this business of raping non-residents with outrageous fees for tags is for the birds too.  Might as well start charging non-residents twice as much for gasoline when traveling thru their states while they're at it too...that'd get folks riled up for sure.
 

One Track

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I bet the Arizona hunters are cringing.  That's a nice little lock they have on their hunting grounds.  Personally, I hope they open it up for non-residents by the next draw period. Wouldn't that be great for us non-res folks. I bet the motel, store, locker, and outfitter owners might  agree.  

Having to buy an annual non-res lic, for $113 to get an extra point, is steep.

Would you rather see the non-res tag fees decreased to the res. prices? Or would you rather have the number of available non-res tags dramatically increased?  I'll take the better odds.

I hope this goes somewhere.
 

snoopdogg

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That is an interesting scenario.  I can't wait to see if it stands.  

Maybe, we'll have some interested party challenge the Mountian Lion hunting law here in California.  Colorado had their State supreme court toss out a proposal/law/whatever, a couple of years ago passed by anti's.  Basically, the court said let the professionals handle game management, not emotional parties who may not be qualfied to make such management decisions.

C'mon boys, somebody step up and SUE someone!  :laffin-yellow:
 

Lv2hnt

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Well, here's the first Arizona reply > First of all, you wouldn't be happy to see this happen in your own home state, so don't be surprised at our reactions. Do you all honestly think you should have it it both ways? You live where you do for reasons sufficient enough to keep you there, whatever state in America that might be. But you also want the cream when it comes to hunting elsewhere --- yeah, that sounds reasonable (NOT!!!). EVERY state has restrictions when it comes to non-resident hunting (either higher prices, or prohibition). Arizona is not alone in this --- check your own and every other state.

You who live elsewhere have no idea the small amount of game animals here in our state. What better hunting we do have for a FEW species is a result of some long-term foresight by Arizona's G&F Dept. (widely considerd one of the BEST in the U.S.!). We have been limited on the tag numbers and where we can hunt since 1971. VERY little OTC big game tags --- archery deer (which may soon be a thing of the past), mountain lion, Fall turkey and Fall bear. That's it! Everything else is a lottery, even for us residents. And it's getting tougher for us to obtain big game tags as more and more people decide to move here.

Then there's a part of the equation that is unique to our state. I can safely say that your home state has nowhere near the water problem Arizona always has had to endure. Water has been, IS NOW, and will always be the highest priority in big game survival here in Arizona (that overrides even the more recent issue of habitat loss)! The continuing drought here in the Southwest has had a catastrophic effect on our wildlife and forests ...

You state that you should have free access to our national forests, hunting where you will. One thing, though --- regardless of what you may think or hear, Arizona's wildlife is property of the state, whether it resides on public or private property, other than on Native American reservations. And the State of Arizona regulates that wildlife!

Now, about the suit in question > it CERTAINLY wasn't born within the ranks of the average hunting fraternity! George T. and Co. (outfitters and guides) have had this in the works for several years now. They live in a state with a PREPONDERANCE of problems when it comes to big game hunting --- a state that also issues land-owner tags, which they heartily use to their financial advantage (something NOT found here in Arizona, and definitely opposed by the vast majority of Arizona hunters!). The suit really is not about hunting accessability. It's about the A-L-M-I-G-H-T-Y D-O-L-L-A-R!!! They're upset because they can't flood Arizona's hunting opportunities with their clients, while seeing their incomes grow vigorously! If you think otherwise, you're living in a fog ...

Decisions of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals have been been overruled many times in the past --- it won't surprise me to see this one experience a similar fate. States' rights is a volatile issue, and this issue has far-reaching effects that could affect you all in your home states in ways you may not actually like. There will be some interesting things emerging from all of this; we'll just have to wait and see as things play out ...

I expect more discussion here on JHP in the days to come. Just remember --- the hunting privilege is a wonderful one that we ALL should be able to experience! We DON'T want to end up with a future where the average man is pinched out of the picture in his own homeland ...

Respectfully,

Lv2hnt
 

One Track

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Lv2Hunt:

Thumbs up for your passsion. You are well versed and represent the hunting community with an enthusiastic and positive voice.  I would feel the same way.  It's a shame that the almighty $ is a springboard for any wildlife management decision. I wish the best for you and Arizona's wildlife.  


My optimism for a prospective chance to receive better odds of getting drawn in Arizona is completely self-centered.  Arizona is always my first pick for a trophy elk hunt.  I'm sure that's a result of limited hunting access. As a non-res hunter, getting drawn for a quality trophy bull Arizona unit is a once, maybe twice, in a lifetime chance.  

Can you blame me for being optimistic?  

I'll trade you a Ca. tag for an Az tag anyday.

My best to you, and your state's wildlife.
 

Coues

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What makes you guys think that your odds are going to improve? A prime September / October Bull Elk hunt FOR RESIDENTS has draw odds of less than 1 in 10. If this stands, expect the number of applications to double in the next few years, therefore pulling everyones odds of drawing a good tag into the PowerBall level!

When I say that I hope that this is reversed, I say that for the good of everyone, not just me. You will have everyone that even remotely thought about applying, sending in their apps. Right now, the people that are serious about it are the ones that are getting the majority of the tags. You'll see people from the east coast get tags and never even use them if this stays.

The fact of the matter is, if you buy your bonus point every year, you will draw a tag eventually. If this ruling stands, you can throw that out the window. The bonus points will be next to worthless when the number of applicants double. Our current Supreme Court is very protective of State's rights, I hope that continues.

Maybe we should do like Montana and raise our Elk tag fees to the 4 digit level. Supply and demand! When I say that I hope that this is reversed, I say that for the good of everyone, not just me.

How many of you that say that you agree with this actually apply for Arizona tag using the current system? Do you apply every year? Buy your points? Do you know which units actually give you a fighting chance to draw with 1 or 2 points? Or do you just follow the crowds and put in for units 9 and 6?
 

Oregon Archer

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I really hope this comes back to bite ole George Taulman of USO in the ass. As far as i can see this is going to open the flood gates of applicants which is going to lessen his clients chances of actually drawing a tag. As far as the ruling i dont see how it affects interstate commerce. The wildlife is a government controlled "product". Plus there are many laws on the books that forbid the selling of game animals parts including antlers taken from hunter killed animals. The only commerce that is affected is the amount of money a guide can make and i dont see that being a big enough factor to change the way things are done now.
 

One Track

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Coues:

Good point.
<
 

DAWG

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Well, when the nonresident quotas were thrown out in NM for sheep, the tags for nonresidents went to $3000. Thanks to USO. This kept about 10% nonresidents in the draw. I bet something simmilar happens in AZ. If this holds up, except that with the new credit card deal, the nonresident price will have to be much higher than that! I really do not think that it will hold up, though. Even though much hunting is done on federal land, the states do control the hunting.
 

Tom Krupinski

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Really don't think it makes that much difference at all whether an applicant is a resident or not. I think chances for rejection are influenced far more my fellow resident applicants and than by non-residents, but either way I think it comes down more to just the luck of the draw.

I have hunted with non-resident hunters for a few years and enjoy their visits and company. With everything being more expensive for them to hunt here I think that will always be a natural limiting factor for non-residents applying.
 

Lv2hnt

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Tom:

Glad you found your way to JHP --- good site all the way 'round ...

Lv2hnt
 

widgnwhacker

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One Track,

Having to buy a Non-Resident License 118.50 to get a Bogus Point?? Hell we can't even put in for an Elk Hunt in California , even if we do have a Non-Resident License. I don't mind having Non-Residents hunt in our state. My brother is from San Diego and puts in on my tag every year here for Archery Elk. He don't bitch , he is like any other hardcore Elk Hunter , if ya wanna play, ya gotta pay. We were not drawn this year so we put in for the White Mtn. Apache Res. Cow Elk Hunt. Damn they charged me $ 375.00 and Im a RESIDENT , maybe I should have the Supreme Court go after the Reservation huh?? I think not, I am going Elk Hunting and if that is the price I have to pay , then so be it. I could have went to Colorado and payed Big Bucks too. Maybe they should lower their price to. I pay big bucks every season to get a Cali Non-Resident License and Duck Stamp , damn it I should be able to pay the same as you do. Its only Ducks
<


You guys Quack me up
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WW
 

One Track

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WW:

Quack quack. I don't mind paying to hunt. If I did mind, I wouldn't apply. Just looking forward to drawing someday. No matter how you look at it, the $113 for an extra point hurts the wallet. So be it.

However this issue works out, I wish the best for the Arizona residents. Never met a Zonie I didn't like.
 

widgnwhacker

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Hey Won Twack,

$113.50 is a small price to pay to have the privelege to Hunt in such a Hunter Friendly State
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Not to mention that you may someday draw a coveted Arizona Bull Elk tag.
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It's a tough draw no matter how ya look at it. I drove to Cali on a weekend and attended a 12hr Hunter Safety course at Project 2000 or 2001. And then a week later attended a 12 hr course here in Arizona just to get the permanent Bogus Point . And I am a resident and still can't get drawn for a Archery Bull tag.
<
Talk about gettin whacked. You know , when you buy that license there is a box on the application that says ( Issue me a license even if Not Drawn). But if you still want the Bogus Point , you can still use that license to hunt.

Deer
Antelope
Turkey
Javelina
Bighorn Sheep ( ha ha ha )
Buffalo ( you think ya gota pay for Elk )
Bear
Sandhill Crane
Pheasant
Ducks and Geese
Quail
Mountain Lions and Bobcats ( To Bad Ya Can't Take em home )

Yeah you California guys ain't so bad after all either. Some of my best hunting partners and friends , oh yeah and Family are from Cali
<



WW
<
<
 

One Track

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WW:

<


I'm going to get me a javelina and a deer in January! Wife and I might even stop by the trailer at Fishers and get naked.
 

widgnwhacker

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Hey where ya gonna go HOG Huntin??? Not at the bar at Fishers are ya
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. We been whackin piggly wigglies down Aravaca way
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You gonna hunt them grey ghost with a stick in Jan. down south?? You get out this way maybe we can hook up for some whackage of widgeons
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Later Bro,

WW
 

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