AZ non-residence getting the shaft?

[Coues]

Incase you don't know, AZ is almost certain to change their draw system in the next year or so. Currently, they set aside 10% of all bull tags for the bonus point holders. They issues those 10% to the highest BP holders that apply for each particular hunt.

What they want to do, is change that to 20% of the tags for each hunt. Sounds like a good deal for those that have been applying ofr years, but dig a little deeper into the numbers.

If a unit has 100 tags, 20 will go to the bonus point draw. In the popular units like 1,9,10, the majority of the applicants with high BP numbers are NR. The 10% (10 tags in this example) cap will be met every year before those with less points will even get a chance. So, the 90 remaining tags will all go to residence.

If you have less than 10-12 points and only apply for units like 1,9,10 your chances of drawing in the next 20 years are slim to none, but you still have to buy that $113 license every year.

Most of you know that I am in favor of capping the NR, just because it takes several years for residence of this state to get a tag. But this is too much. Someone should get a lawyer. They are not being up front with you on your chances of drawing a tag.

If you or I tried this scam, we'd get charged for rackettering.

 

[jlostrander]

I trust your judgement based on the things you have commented on over the years. However, aside from buying a license each year, which I totally understand and don't really like doing, can you expand on the difference between the current draw system at 10% and what they are proposing at 20%?

As it is now, as I understand, if you have 12 points you have twelve possibilities in the draw and if you have two, you have two chances? Correct?

Then when the percentage is met, then no more non-res. will draw? Correct?

So, you are saying that no longer will the guy with two points have a chance?

Please expand and I will put in my two cents. To the AZ. game and fish.

Logan

 

['Ike' @ HM]

Not again.........

I look at it like the lottery, you pay to play and there ain't no guarantee...........

 

[BOHNTR]

I think I see what you're getting at. However, if it is true that NR have more bonus points than residents, why do you suppose that is? Because they have yet to draw, plain and simple! Sounds like a good way to increase odds for those who have never been drawn for a quality tag for both residents and non-residents alike.

Here's where the problem lies as I see it; Most NR's simply put in for a quality bull tag (9, 10, 1, etc.) and NEVER a cow tag. If they are not drawn, they keep playing the game and won't settle for anything less. On the contrary, many residents will "hold out" a few years for a quality bull tag, get frustrated becasue they have not drawn, and they put in for a cow tag. BAAM, there goes their points and their chance of being drawn for a quality hunt!

What's all this mean? Not everyone can hunt elk in AZ every year (including residents) when your resource is much smaller than the demand! Just my .02.

 

[wmidbrook]

Good points. Those NRs with a lot of points holding out for the high demand/quality units will surely like it. It's good to know as a non-resident that the odds of drawing one of those tags is less until they reach a max point pool---which, like Cous said can take years and years.

Does AZ still look @ the first 2 choices in the first pass after they issue all applicants a random number? If so, it might make sense for some NRs to put a lower demand hunt for their second choice if they want to hunt elk there in less than 10 years or so....

At least AZ is allocating 10% of the elk tags to non-residents. It could be like Oregon where only 5% of the tags go to non-residents---plus, clients with outfitters in the high demand units get 90%+ of that tag allocation....

(OR's a shining example of protecting their own I suppose)

States are definately trending towards making public super tags a resident only thing...just the way it is. Probably better off at looking into low success odds units with some chance of a bigger bull.

Then again, you can bypass the draw completely in AZ. I met an oral surgeon while duck hunting--he showed me a picture of his AZ 380" elk he shot last year during the rut with his rifle and he said, yeah, it was the first year I put in for it. But, it was on an Indian Reservation and cost him a hair under $20k...he was into elk every day and wanted to shoot many that his guide "wouldn't let him"

.....so, on day three he gets mad at the guide and shoots one he liked.....guide problems.....wish I could afford to have such problems....no worries about the draws....

I commented, "nice daggers and whalebacks"....he said, "what's that?" He didn't care, he's got a big ol' bull to hang in his game room.

I think it's best for those not willing to spend more than a grand or two on a hunting trip to be glad that we do have a lot of opportunity in the west. Even though it may not be for some super bulls, there's plenty of good opportunity out there to bag elk if one's not too hung up on antlers or antler size.

 

[Tom Petterson]

I hate AZ last year they offered a extra bounus point to the people who had been applying for 5 years or more and my dad and I both had. I mailed in our apps for deer and elk in the same envelope so they opened it and did not include us in eather draw

.becuase they were in the same envelope! So we got hosed out of two hunting licence fee's and lost the points we would have got that year plus the bounus point and now we look like we have not applied for a year so it will take another five years to get that extra point. We lost 2 points in one year and were not included ion the draw.
If I could figure out how to make AZ part of Mexico and make them dissapere from tha U.S. map that would make mee happy.
In my opion AZ is the most anti nonresident state in the country.

This is not the first problem I have had with AZ we went down there and hunted and met a Game warden that everybody hated he mad a real A@#$ out of himself and if I hade to guess he is either dead now, or at a desk job, or he stays real close to the city. He did not have the personality to deal with people in the field or anywhere else for that matter all the hunters wrer mad at him , the ranch manager , everybody, if this guy ever got into trouble there would be nobdy to help him thats for sure.

I really hate Az and they must hate me too!

 

[Coues]

Originally posted by jlostrander@Feb 11 2006, 10:37 AM
I trust your judgement based on the things you have commented on over the years. However, aside from buying a license each year, which I totally understand and don't really like doing, can you expand on the difference between the current draw system at 10% and what they are proposing at 20%?

As it is now, as I understand, if you have 12 points you have twelve possibilities in the draw and if you have two, you have two chances? Correct?

Then when the percentage is met, then no more non-res. will draw? Correct?

So, you are saying that no longer will the guy with two points have a chance?

Please expand and I will put in my two cents. To the AZ. game and fish.

Logan

Yes, you get an extra "chance" for every bonus point you have. What I am trying to say, and forgive me for not being real articulate, is that if you are not near the top of the food chain for points right now, your chance at drawing a NR tag in AZ with a 20% allocation to bonus point holders only is going to get real slim.

First off, they are going to be cutting back a lot of the September tags and issueing November archery tags instead. At least that's what they want to do. It is being heavily opposed by almost everyone, but the G&F want to have more high draw rate, low success rate hunts.


----


Going by the original example of a unit with 100 tags. 20 of those tags will be guarenteed to to highest point holders that apply for that hunt. Yet, there is a 10 NR max for this unit (10% of 100).

If 10 of those tags 20 are taken in the bonus point phase of the draw, NR are maxed out before the guys with 2,3,4 points have even been given a chance.

I know for a fact that in units 1 & 27, USO puts in hundreds of NR applicants just by them self and a lot of them have been applying for it for years. If you are not near max points, which I think is 16 now, you have NO shot.


FYI: The bonus point portion of the draw is not really a draw. They arrange all of the point holders in the draw by number of points they have. Then they go down the list, if they have 20 tags set aside for the BP holders and 3 people with 12 points put in, those 3 get tags.

Then they go to the next group, 11 points. Say 17 people with 11 points put in. They all get tags. Now, all 20 tags have been given out. If you have 10 points, but 10 NR tags have already been issued, you are essentially out of the draw. You don't get tag even if you are drawn in the regular lottery portion of the process.

So, if have 3-4 points and think you are getting 3-4 extra chances at an Elk tag, there is a good chance you didn't even get ONE CHANCE.

This isn't just for elk either, so those thinking they are getting a Strip Muley tag can think again. I know there are thousands of NR with max deer points. If the 20% pass takes effect, the rest of you are SOL.

IF you are a max holder, or very close to it, you will probably get a tag soon, but it will very likely be your last premium unit tag ever.

What my beef is, and I am a RESIDENT OF ARIZONA, is that they don't tell you that you have no chance at a unit 1, 10 etc tag unless you have many points. In fact, they tell you that with the bonus point system, even people with no points have a chance. That's true in some cases, but not all.

 

[Coues]

Originally posted by 'Ike' @ HM@Feb 11 2006, 10:37 AM
Not again.........

I look at it like the lottery, you pay to play and there ain't no guarantee...........

When you buy a lottery ticket, you are at least supposed to have some chance to win.

I am willing to bet, that unless you either have max points or 1 less, you have ZERO chance at a unit 1,8,9,10, or 27 bull elk tag, strip or Late Kaibab Mule deer tag if they pass this new 20% rule. Maybe in a few years, after all the high point holders have drawn, you can get back in the game. IF you have continued to apply and get your points.

Would you buy a $100 lottery ticket if you zero chance win? What if you were told you had a chance, but really didn't?

 

[muskeg]

how would this affect the other non premium units or even a cow draw for a non-res ?

 

[Coues]

Originally posted by muskeg@Feb 11 2006, 07:32 PM
how would this affect the other non premium units or even a cow draw for a non-res ?

There are no NR caps on cow tags.

I'm not sure about the other units. It mainly will effect the early, bugling season hunts.

 

[Coues]

Just saw this on another site. Basically the same opinion that I have.

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID7/5835.html

 

['Ike' @ HM]

Originally posted by Coues+Feb 11 2006, 05:29 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coues @ Feb 11 2006, 05:29 PM)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-'Ike' @ HM

@Feb 11 2006, 10:37 AM
Not again.........

I look at it like the lottery, you pay to play and there ain't no guarantee...........

When you buy a lottery ticket, you are at least supposed to have some chance to win.

I am willing to bet, that unless you either have max points or 1 less, you have ZERO chance at a unit 1,8,9,10, or 27 bull elk tag, strip or Late Kaibab Mule deer tag if they pass this new 20% rule. Maybe in a few years, after all the high point holders have drawn, you can get back in the game. IF you have continued to apply and get your points.

Would you buy a $100 lottery ticket if you zero chance win? What if you were told you had a chance, but really didn't? [/b]

Yup, but like I said no guarantee!!!

 

[wmidbrook]

All states with a lottery system should, at a minimum, explicitly state on their website or free literature their draw formula....I've gotten so many conflicting statements from AZ, NM, and UT personnel trying to figure it out, it ain't even funny.

I agree with Coues. AZ has published odds tables before. I pressed for details over the phone and found out that it was the odds for the person with the average # of points. I couldn't get a breakdown of applicants per point pool at that point in time (2001).

But, AZ is counting on folks who think, heck, it's a lottery and as long as they say I've got a chance to draw, I'll put in......if people knew their real draw odds, the state probably wouldn't make nearly as much money...

I thought that government agencies aren't supposed to use misrepresentation to make money off us....that's highly unethical. And, they let most folks go on believing that they have a better chance than they do there......

It's definately one of the reasons why I have not and will not apply for MT and AZ....I'm also pi$$ed as he** at Oregon since outfitters get all the NR tags in the prime hunt units--if I weren't already 4 points into the point game there, I wouldn't apply there.....call OFG personnel and ask why in the Weneha and Walla Walla Elk hunts aren't the non-residents getting any tags? (also all the high demand muzzleloader deer hunts) http://www.dfw.state.or.us/resources/hunti..._hunts/reports/

point summary tables... I talked to 5 - 10 people in their office there and no one could give me a real answer...I said, but there are 20 tags issued so NRs should get 1, right? (5% of tags go to NR)....they said yeah....but, there's just no tag for NR through the draw that year...maybe next year...keep trying...

So, finally I find out that outfitters take priority. If they have someone put in for one of those hunts through them, they get the tags. At least in states like NV and NM, it's explicitly stated what the guide quota is...it's above board...not underhanded.

Oh yeah, I finally call back OFG once I found out where the tags are going and confronted them on the telephone about it....And, every person I talked to said "yeah, that's the way it is....you probalby should put in somewhere else if you won't put in with an outfitter".....I said, gee, thanks....thanks for being forthright with that info before I started in the game.....so, it's a matter of having to level set expectations after being porked....just have to get over it and either accept current odds or do something else....that's the problem with the point game, the rules can shift on ya big time.

Take Wyo, 7$ for moose and sheep points per year when I signed up...they jacked prices up to $75 and $100 per point....just the way it is....stay in or fold??

And, states should clearly state that there are no price increase restrictions on points and no guarantees that NR quotas will remain the same in the future...buyer beware.

I also think that there's probably grounds for legal action....IMO, it's not personally worth it for me to go after it, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing some heat put to a few states. The proclamations NRs explicitly bind to when signing their applications for a tag is a contract if I'm not mistaken....

 

[muskeg]

or they could all be like Cali and not allow any NR Elk draw at all !!!!!!

 

[easymoney]

Get ready, because this situation is going to be changing for the worst for NR applying in all the western states in the very near future. The states have realized (just like oil companies) you can demand any price you want and we will pay because we want to have the opportunity to hunt there... The draws will start to be more and more lop sided and I believe all states will be requiring purchase of full lic before applying for tags...
Ben Dover...
And, muskeg, that might be what will happen in all states. How would you like it?

 

[muskeg]

I don't like it that I can't try for a draw in Cali for an Elk or Lope. But that is thats states hunters choice and I respect that.

Actually several states have more restrictive regs on the NR hunter than AZ. Look at the Alaska guide law. The Nevada draw odds for the NR in some hunts are bassically a no-draw (or a % of a % chance) the way it's set up. Oregon is very restrictive and always has been on the NR, for some hunts. Actually the Ak guide law was written into the first laws when it became a state. Mainly to help create economy and jobs for Alaskans.

It all comes down to more hunters than animals that can be taken. And the hunters that
live in that state and pay taxes and contribute to that state in many ways that the NR dosen't should have a priority.

Enter the mighty $. NR pay way more for that hunt than the resident hunter. Not just in Lic and Tag fees but all the rest from travel to lodging and supplies while doing that hunt in that state. That will continue to be a deciding factor in restricting the NR. Mostly in the states that need it. It is obvious that Cali dosen't need those $'s. Az needs them less than they used to. Co and Wy still need to sell a million licenses to Texans !!!!!!

 

[muskeg]

Actually I do like the permanent or lifetime license or ID that AZ has. I think even if you move out of state you can return to Az and hunt as a resident.

 

[jlostrander]

Thanks for everyone's input.

Please give your opinions to the AZ game and fish. At least you should tell them how you feel about this topic.

I am.

Thanks to coues for bringing it up.

Logan

PS> please read over the system before sending in app's and checks for every state you apply with.

I have a similar situation in the past, that I did not get it correct and it stings. I would be in the max az deer point pool, except, I SCREWED IT UP!!!

Please call them if you are not sure.

 

[WapitiBob]

DonV on the bowsite and Monster muley started this. go to the bowsite and it gets explained there very well by stickflicker.

elk forum, az non res thread

http://www.bowsite.com/bowsite/tf/bgforums...ESSAGES=69&FF=5

 

[DAWG]

POINTS SUCK. All points systems suck. The reason is that the game can change yearly, yet points are a long term deal. You do not know what you are buying. Oh well, this particular change benifits me (I am in the top deer pool, and only two off the top sheep pool). If it causes hate and discontent towards points systems, and helps me, it is all good! At least the premium pricing was axed.