spectr17

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BIG GAME TAG DRAWINGS ­ jim matthews column ­ 28may08

Preference point drawing system works for deer but doesn't for other big game

By JIM MATTHEWS Outdoor News Service

The application deadline for all big game hunting tags is Monday, June 2, and this is the sixth year of the Department of Fish and Game's preference point system that applies to all premium deer, elk, pronghorn, and bighorn sheep tags.

So now it's time to say this: The system doesn't work for any big game hunt with less than about 100 tags, and it almost assures that new hunters who don't have the maximum number of preference points (six this year) will never get drawn for a sheep, elk, pronghorn, or a low-quota deer tag. This means it is prejudicial ­ especially against new hunters.

The preference point system does seem to be working for deer hunters. You can look at the drawing odds and calculate just how many years ­ at most ­ it will take you to get a deer tag in any given zone. For example, the popular X5b zone in northeastern California, even the most unlucky of hunters who faithfully apply for this tag each year, and has since the beginning of the quota system, will get a tag by 2010 ­ after eight years.

For people unfamiliar with the preference point system, including many hunters, some explaining may be necessary. It works this way: For each year you apply for any species of big game, and aren't drawn for your first choice tag, you receive a preference point. These are accumulated over time. For each zone or hunt, 90 percent of the deer tags (and no more than 75 percent of the total elk, pronghorn and bighorn tags) are placed in the preference point pool. The hunters who apply for that tag with the most points get first crack at those preference point pool tags.

For example, last year there were 115 tags in X5b, with 104 in the preference point pool. There were 2,930 hunters who put this hunt as their first choice, but only 315 of those had the maximum number of preference points (five last year). All 104 tags in the preference pool quota were issued to hunters out of that group who applied with five preference points. The remaining 11 tags were drawn from the remaining pool of 2,826 hunters who did not have a maximum number of preference points. (If you were one of those, you should have gone to Vegas or Reno the day of the drawing.) At the current rate of application, you can just about bank on the fact that you will get an X5b tag every eight years, although falling tag numbers could stretch that a year or two.
In zones with higher quotas or less interest, it might not take the maximum number of preference points to be drawn for a tag. For example, the popular Eastern Sierra deer zone around Mammoth Lakes ­ X9a ­ the quota was 750 tags in 2007, with 675 of those in the preference pool. There were a total of 2,475 first-choice applications, but only six hunters applied with five preference points ­ obviously getting tags. But everyone who applied for X9a as their first choice with two, three or four preference points also received a tag last year. The lowest preference point value receiving an X9a tag was 1 1/2. How do you get a half point? If you apply as a party with other hunters, the DFG averages the point totals among the hunters applying. The stats show that you can be pretty sure of getting an X9a tag every three years, worst case scenario.

While the system works for most of the major deer hunts with tag quotas over 100, it just about assures that hunters who have not applied every year since the system was instituted in 2002 will likely never have a shot at preference pool tags and face worse odds than ever before in the non-preference pool, especially for other trophy big game.

The better pronghorn hunts in the northeastern California have 40 buck tags, with 75 percent in the preference pool. At the current application rates it will take at least 20 to 30 years for every hunter who's applied every year since 2002 to get a tag. In the ramdom pool, the odds of getting a tag in any given year hover around one-in-300, worse than they've ever been for new hunters.

Bighorn sheep tags are so few in number that odds have always been astronomical, but the preference point system has only helped the 3,300 or so hunters who applied every year since the preference point system began. For the other 7,000 hunters who apply without the maximum number of points, like my two sons, the system has assured they face even greater odds at getting a tag.

I happen to believe that hunters should be rewarded for persistence in apply for tags, but the preference point system is too biased against new hunters. It should be called the prejudicial point system. The DFG needs to level the playing field and make preference points for the low-tag hunts a bonus point system and keep everyone in the same pool. A bonus point system simply means that for each year you don't draw, you get another opportunity in the draw the next year. Guys who've accumulated six bonus points, are like having six additional people in the drawing. But everyone has a shot at every one of the tags in the tag quota.

This improves the odds slightly for the first-time application, while still improving the odds for the multi-year applicant.

Lastly, the DFG needs to do away with auction tags for all big game species and put those tags back into the general drawings. It is offensive that the state is selling the soul of hunting to the highest bidder, while cheating the thousands of hunters who support the program year after year out of a chance at that tag.

The DFG is offering three bighorn sheep auction tags for 2008, one more than last year, and a total of just 20 drawing tags, also one more than last year. The bighorn auction tags are sold to the highest bidder at fundraising dinners and raised $132,500 for sheep management last year. The state sold 10 deer tags at auction, two pronghorn tags, and three elk tags. The total money raised for all the auction tags, including sheep, was $433,600.

If the DFG needs money (which it doesn't ­ it needs inspired management), I like the idea of raffle tags so everyone who wants to fork out $5 or $10 gets a crack at a special tag and feels good about supporting wildlife management, and if a wealthy guy wants to buy $60,000 worth of raffle tickets on the gamble that he'll get that tag, that's fine with me, too. But I don't think we should just give the tag away to the highest bidder.

We've had both the preference point system and auction tags for a number of years ­ more than enough time to honestly evaluate the two systems and see their drawbacks and fix them. It's time for the fix.
 

suavegato

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I know that there are a few DFG guys who frequent these forums. If any of them read this, where can hunters give input as to the point system and how it works? I have been discussing with my brothers & father for a while now and have come up with a few ideas that we think are good ones for consideration.
<blockquote>A) cap the "max points" at some limit, perhaps 10, so that everyone who is dedicated can catch up at some point... but even if you have 15 points and draw, you still keep your 5.
B) what about offering some senior hunts like they do with apprentice hunts? for those who don't have that many more years left in'em and or started late to maybe get in that one last prime hunt?</blockquote>

just some food for thought...
 

bpnclark

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The cap should be 5.

It’s like winning the lottery anyways so 5 straight years of putting in for an animal should be max.

It should also be a "once in a lifetime" tag/animal like some other states. If you got your Tule Bull, CA Bighorn or CA Antelope then you’re done. Make room for someone else.
 

fishnhunt

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bpnclark @ Jun 1 2008, 10:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
The cap should be 5.

It’s like winning the lottery anyways so 5 straight years of putting in for an animal should be max.

It should also be a "once in a lifetime" tag/animal like some other states. If you got your Tule Bull, CA Bighorn or CA Antelope then you’re done. Make room for someone else.[/b]
I agree there are more applicants then there are tags available in their lifetime
 

suavegato

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I guess one thing to consider why they wouldn't cap it and or make it "lifetime" hunt is revenue... Say for Sheep, if the point cap is 5, they won't get my $7.50 every year for the next 50 years, cuz I'll stop after 5 years. $7.50 x how many people buy points / apply each year has to add up to quite a bit!
 

bpnclark

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It looks like (if it stays the same) if you did not put in the first year the preference points started (or you missed a year) you are screwed, forever. That does not seem right. When I turn 60 what are the max points going to be 35? That is ridiculous. What are the max points going to be when my children turn 40? +85 points?
 

suavegato

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Seems like something should be changed to make it more fair / equitable for EVERYONE. Maybe we should start a list of the changes that we think should be implemented and all agree on, then send it off to the DFG. Common sense, rational stuff that would "help" make the system better... Clearly there is need for improvement, I don't know anyone (who applies for the low tag number hunts) who is happy with the current system...

Also, what about offering "Sr. hunts" similar to the Jr. hunts? for those who don't have much more time left to hunt...

<blockquote>1) Cap on max points - but after you reach max points, maybe you still have to pay your $7.50 each year as a “maintenance fee” or something?
2) make the sheep, Tule bull etc. "Once in a Lifetime hunts".
3) ???</blockquote>

Anyone have any other ideas?
 

bpnclark

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Just like the other states. Once you reached “max” points you have to keep applying every year (with your $7.50) or you loose your points.

I don’t know about Sr. hunts. Once you start with that, you will have a couple more groups demanding tags.

Once in a lifetime animals only makes since. There are not enough animals for everyone. But I think it should only be for Tule Bulls, CA Antelope and CA Bighorns. If you draw the tag and don’t get your animal you’re back to 0 but you get to keep putting in. Once you get it, your done.

Also I don’t have a problem with the DF&G raffling off a couple of tags. Every year I’m at the CA FNAWS dinner and see a couple of tags go for outrageous prices. But all that money (or at least most of it) goes back to the sheep. That money is raised pretty quickly and helps out a lot. The # of tags raffled off every year is not that many. I think it does more good than harm.
 

suavegato

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bpnclark @ Jun 2 2008, 11:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Just like the other states. Once you reached “max” points you have to keep applying every year (with your $7.50) or you loose your points.

I don’t know about Sr. hunts. Once you start with that, you will have a couple more groups demanding tags.

Once in a lifetime animals only makes since. There are not enough animals for everyone. But I think it should only be for Tule Bulls, CA Antelope and CA Bighorns. If you draw the tag and don’t get your animal you’re back to 0 but you get to keep putting in. Once you get it, your done.

Also I don’t have a problem with the DF&G raffling off a couple of tags. Every year I’m at the CA FNAWS dinner and see a couple of tags go for outrageous prices. But all that money (or at least most of it) goes back to the sheep. That money is raised pretty quickly and helps out a lot. The # of tags raffled off every year is not that many. I think it does more good than harm.[/b]

I wonder if they could raise the same (or more) money if they did a raffle for those tags instead of an auction that only lets the super rich have a shot at them... I'm sure there would be a lot of folks who would pay $10 for a shot at one of those tags, and the "super rich" could still buy, errrrrr donate thousands of dollars if they want to buy 100's of raffle tickets... IMHO, that would be a more fair system, and who knows, maybe more profitable too? I'm not opposed to the rich guy auction, it raises lots of money for the sport, but if they could raise the same amount of money and give EVERYONE a shot, wouldn’t that be better?

As for the Sr. hunts, just a thought… just a way to recognize and or pay homage to those who have passed the tradition on down to us. And they still would fall under the once in a lifetime rules too… I.E. if someone hunts their whole life and still hasn’t taken a Tule bull, antelope, sheep etc. then maybe increase their odds a bit by having a tag or two just for them…? Just like the Jr. hunts are there to help bring new blood into the sport, why not honor those who brought us in? Just a thought….

I like the discussion though, we should get some good info. flowing out of this, hopefully it gets to the right place?
 

tmoniz

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Every year I hear people whining about the "system" in California.
The Elk, Sheep, Antelope, and Deer populations are what dictates the number of tags offered in the Drawing.
Pure and simple.
If you want an Elk. Look elsewhere. Maybe Colorado, Wyoming or wherever but not here.
Those States have the Elk. We do not.
You want a Speed Goat. Look to Wyoming.
You want a Sheep. Look to Canada and Alaska. (but save up some coin)

The "system" is as fair as can be given the population of Elk, Sheep and Antelope this State has.
That's it.

So get over it.
 

bpnclark

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tmoniz @ Jun 2 2008, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
The "system" is as fair as can be given the population of Elk, Sheep and Antelope this State has.[/b]

Tmoniz. You must work for the DF&G. The talk is about the way the preference point system is set up. Are you the genius that came up with a point system that has no cap or no way for people to catch up? Maybe in 40 years the max points will be 46.

As for going out of state – I go every year. But it would be nice to get something in the state I live and grew up in.
 

tmoniz

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No Bpn I do not work for the F@G.
I did not manufacture the point system.
I just go with it for what it is and why it is.
 

suavegato

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tmoniz @ Jun 2 2008, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Every year I hear people whining about the "system" in California.
The "system" is as fair as can be given the population of Elk, Sheep and Antelope this State has.
That's it.

So get over it.[/b]
Who's whining? So far, other than YOUR comments, this has been a positive, constuctive conversation about trying to effect change to something with room for improvement.. No whining, just brainstorming, get over yourself!

"The "system" is as fair as can be given the population of Elk, Sheep and Antelope this State has. That's it."

Uh, no that's NOT it, that's YOUR opinion... there are many ways the system could be made more fair, and that's what this discussion is all about. If you don't think it can be "any more fair" then don't contribute... some of us have a different opinion and would like to discuss it, if that's all right with you! Take your own advice and take your hunts out of state, better odds for the rest of us!
 

jlostrander

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Haven't heard of a system that caps the max points. Is that used in other states?

Just wondered if there were and example or two out there.

I think going to the Neveda system would be better than caping the max points a person can have. Nevedas system squares your points (I know that is not a perfect discription). So, in year two, you have 2x2 = 4 shots at the tag/draw. When you have 5 points you have 5x5 = 25 shots. Then you would just open all tags up to everyone and everyone has a chance and anyone could draw. This is better than caping the max points in my opinion. Is it perfect, no. There is no perfect way.

Anyone who can explain it better, please correct me. Then if you forget one year or put an incorrect stamp on your app. Your less screwed.
 

suavegato

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jlostrander @ Jun 2 2008, 12:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Anyone who can explain it better, please correct me. Then if you forget one year or put an incorrect stamp on your app. Your less screwed.[/b]
and I think that is the crux of what is wrong with the Ca system... as it stands right now (and for the next 100 years or more) if you haven't put in for antelope, sheep or Elk since 2002, then basically, you are NEVER going to draw one... they all go to max point applicants (except the 10% lottery, which is exceedingly hard to get).

The math seems backwards… seems like 10% of the applicants are Max point applicants yet they get assigned 90% of the tags. 90% of the applicants aren’t max points applicants and only get 10% of the tags… Now, that wouldn’t be so bad if there was enough turn over to make it a perpetual system but in it’s present form, if you didn’t in from day one, then you’re basically screwed… for life! I think that there should be a reward for applying every year, contributing the funds, persistence etc. It just seems too skewed and too lop-sided to me…

Just FYI, I've put in for elk points since 2002, so I'm a max point candidate but I still don't think the system is "fair".
 

tmoniz

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Well that's a typical response Suave.
This is a forum by the way, or do you see room for improvement here as well.
Your ideas are based off thinking the system needs improvement or is unfair.
What gives you such great insight to think the system needs to be improved.
By the way for sake of arguement, I think the system is just fine.
Why complicate it any further.
But that's just my opinion.
As is yours yours.
 

brut

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jlostrander @ Jun 2 2008, 12:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Haven't heard of a system that caps the max points. Is that used in other states?

Just wondered if there were and example or two out there.

I think going to the Neveda system would be better than caping the max points a person can have. Nevedas system squares your points (I know that is not a perfect discription). So, in year two, you have 2x2 = 4 shots at the tag/draw. When you have 5 points you have 5x5 = 25 shots. Then you would just open all tags up to everyone and everyone has a chance and anyone could draw. This is better than caping the max points in my opinion. Is it perfect, no. There is no perfect way.

Anyone who can explain it better, please correct me. Then if you forget one year or put an incorrect stamp on your app. Your less screwed.[/b]


I like nv system the best. its gives everyone a chance and if your loyay you get more chances until drawn. Would love to see ca go to that system
 

bpnclark

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I’m not too sure about a cap in other states but in CO and WY if you have 1-2 points in WY (or 2-5 CO) you pretty much can draw your tag next year. Now they do have way more animals to hunt, but if the CA system stays the way it is, people that did not start applying when it started, just moved to the state, missed a year due to stamp or other reasons - can never make it to max, never.
 

suavegato

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tmoniz @ Jun 2 2008, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Well that's a typical response Suave.
This is a forum by the way, or do you see room for improvement here as well.
Your ideas are based off thinking the system needs improvement or is unfair.
What gives you such great insight to think the system needs to be improved.
By the way for sake of arguement, I think the system is just fine.
Why complicate it any further.
But that's just my opinion.
As is yours yours.[/b]
The difference is, me & a few others are trying to help, effect change, make a difference… you just came into the discussion slinging insults “stop whining” and with your would be iron fist, “The "system" is as fair as can be given the population of Elk, Sheep and Antelope this State has. That's it.” And your inflammatory comments, “get over it”.

Real constructive, real helpful! That’s not a discussion, that’s just you spewing venom and being destructive. I’m not going to let you suck me into another pointless online argument, if you need to argue with someone that bad, go down to your local watering hole…

Getting back on track, the “system” is not dictated by the population of sheep, elk & antelope, they only dictate the number of tags, but have nothing to do with how those tags get allotted… that’s the part some of us would like to change… Not increase the numbers of tags, we know that is managed, just how those same number of tags gets distributed… If you like the present system, that’s fine. You don’t have to participate in this discussion or if you have constructive arguments as to why it shouldn’t be changed, that’s fine too… But why just come in and flame?
 

tmoniz

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You're too sensitive Suave and misunderstand a person's wording.
And the one that Flames.
Not me.
I can come into a discussion whenever I want and voice my opinion.
You answered part of your question about the tag numbers. Population dictates the number af tags available.
So the system has to be designed fairly to distribute those tags.
Not everyone will get that precious tag. Oh well.

If you keep throwing in concessions then you convolute a simple and fair system.
That's my take on it.
Everybody gets a shot at a tag of some sort.
How do you say it?

The luck of the draw?




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