BIG GAME TAG DRAWINGS ­ jim matthews column ­ 28may08

[tmoniz]

Bpn.
I hunted for Mule Deer in a place in Wyoming where we saw some very fine Bull Elk.
So one year we all put in on our own.
We got the Deer tags but this one dumb SOB that I hunted with got one of the only 6 Elk tags non res that were offered.
Guess what. He decided to go bowling with his girlfriend.
The circumstances do not matter.
If you draw. You are done. No excuses.
But that is not my thinking. It was just something that a friend of mine said to me.

 

[bpnclark]

Come on. Bowling with your girlfriend is way more fun.

It will be my luck to draw a sheep tag and get hit by a car. That’s why I’m still on this planet. I haven’t drawn a sheep tag yet.

 

[tmoniz]

Here's a thought.
Take the point system and throw it out the window.
Everybody puts in for the tags for whatever that the DFG offers.
An equal and fair playing field.
Every person for themselves.
If you do not draw.
Oh well.
Maybe next year.

 

[montana13]

It's always nice to know the rules before you comment on them. 75/25!

 

[DFGELK]

It will take more time to clear the bull hunts, when I get some time I can go back and look and see if they are losing max point applicants at a similar rate. As cow tags turn over many people will choose to take a cow. I take phone calls from all different people and everyone has a different opinion on how things should work. There is no way to make everyone happy. No matter what system is in place a bull hunt is still going to be very difficult to draw. I do see the number of tags increasing over the years, are they going to double in 5 years? That is pretty much not going to happen but I think they will increase.

Fundraising tags are always a hot topic, take this year for example. The three elk tags brought in over 120,000 dollars. That is a lot of money. Are three tags going to change your draw odds? If you applied for the hunt that the tag went to (an example, top of my head approx numbers) your draw odds for a Grizzly Island bull would go from 0.2 to 0.3. If they would go into a larger tag quota your odds change from something like 5.0 to 5.15. Now that is assuming more people do not apply seeing more tags in that zone. Other zones it will not change at all (which is most of them). I would be in favor of a raffle if it could bring in around the same amount. So for elk it would take 12,000 people to purchase one chance (at $10) or roughly just under half the number of people that applied for the draw would need to purchase a chance. This year was also a very high fund raising year for elk and it is normally not over 100,000. That is a lot of money into a program that is money shy. In all honesty it does not really matter to me which method they choose. I see a benefit in your average guy getting a chance at the tag (with worse odds than the draw) and a benefit by maximizing the dollars into the program. If both can be accomplished then why not?

Joe

 

[easymoney]

"Every year I hear people whining about the "system" in California.
The Elk, Sheep, Antelope, and Deer populations are what dictates the number of tags offered in the Drawing.
Pure and simple.
If you want an Elk. Look elsewhere. Maybe Colorado, Wyoming or wherever but not here.
Those States have the Elk. We do not.
You want a Speed Goat. Look to Wyoming.
You want a Sheep. Look to Canada and Alaska. (but save up some coin)

The "system" is as fair as can be given the population of Elk, Sheep and Antelope this State has.
That's it.

So get over it."

Pretty much sizes it up, tmoniz...

The number of elk tags given out in CA is only 316 total and the number of hunters applying is 29,924, so you guys do the math... Then take into account the max points of 75% and the balance of 25% how they divvy up the draw...
Bingo, it will take decades to get drawn or just dumb luck... And I have put in for decades for an elk tag (and long before the points system every was hatched) and still have not been drawn here in CA.
If I want to hunt elk, I apply out of state, it's a pretty simple math...
And thanks dfgelk for the info, it is always welcomed.

 

[bpnclark]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (easymoney @ Jun 3 2008, 10:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Bingo, it will take decades to get drawn or just dumb luck...[/b]

It will not take decades it will take several centuries.

It is all luck and the point system is a joke.

 

[DFGELK]

The point system was implemented because people wanted a system where they could eventually get a better chance at a tag, The Department at that time looked into several different systems and took peoples opinion of what they wanted. If I recall correctly there was not much difference in what type of system people wanted (again not going to make everyone happy) but they did want some type of system so people who put in for years would have a better chance of drawing a tag. It may take decades on some hunts and maybe a 100 years on some others if nothing changes (again people with max points are dropping out at around double the rate of tags being issued). As another example last year their were 596 people with max points that applied for the Marbles, if that number stays the same (and it won't because people will drop out and then people will get drawn and lose max points each year) it would take 20 years to clear max points. Take a harder hunt like Northeastern to draw, 982 people with max points, it would take 122 years to guarantee a tag to the last person. Tags like Grizzly Island are an impossibility to clear because of the sheer number of people putting in for them.

I like some type of system which benefits the person who has been applying for years and I believe most people do as well (that is why the system was implemented in the first place). Is it a perfect system? No, is any system perfect? No. Just depends on what your opinion is. If you want better odds to hunt elk you pretty much have to go out of state, we have a very limited resource and an even higher demand. No magic system is going to solve that problem. I view it as the lottery when I apply, very small chance at winning. But I can guarantee you this, every year all the tags will be issued to someone. That has never failed to happen. Someone always gets drawn, just hope each year it is me.

Joe

 

[easymoney]

dfgelk,
IMHO, it is just a matter of sheer numbers, there are too many people putting in for a very small number of elk tags.
And, I was one of those who put in for grizzley island for many years before the point system. I also used to buy an archery only tag that was good for all deer zones, but that was back in the old days.

"No magic system is going to solve that problem. I view it as the lottery when I apply, very small chance at winning. But I can guarantee you this, every year all the tags will be issued to someone. That has never failed to happen. Someone always gets drawn, just hope each year it is me."

I agree and thats why I keep putting...

 

[tmoniz]

I just keep putting in. I don't pay much attention to the draw until it's over and then I move on to something else.
I get up at O'dark 30 and go looking for Sheep in a particular area. I hike in to a place. Find them. And then watch them. I don't take pics because I do not want to give up the Rams that are there.
It's fun just knowing where they are, but I don't dream about a Tag.

Thanks for the info Joe.

 

[Live2hunt]

Sounds to me like someone got into the point system late and is now trying to jump up the line. The way the point system works now, at lease max point people are guaranteed a premium tag someday. Put a cap on the number of max points and people who were first in line from the beginning may never get that tag. If I'm first in line, I'd like to be served first before others behind me........Just my 2 cents.

About auctioning premium tags to the highest bidder, sounds to me like DFG has a descrimination against the poor and not the rich. It needs to STOP!!!



L2H

 

[tmoniz]

I don't have an issue with the auction tags.
If somebody has the dough and needs a good right off. Let them knock themselves out.
Doesn't mean they are going to fill that Tag.
It's not a sure thing.

 

[fishnhunt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Live2hunt @ Jun 4 2008, 07:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Sounds to me like someone got into the point system late and is now trying to jump up the line. The way the point system works now, at lease max point people are guaranteed a premium tag someday. Put a cap on the number of max points and people who were first in line from the beginning may never get that tag. If I'm first in line, I'd like to be served first before others behind me........Just my 2 cents.

About auctioning premium tags to the highest bidder, sounds to me like DFG has a descrimination against the poor and not the rich. It needs to STOP!!!



L2H[/b]

As pointed out above....what about new hunters??? They didn't have a chance to start on the bottom rung....They are totally screwed....

 

[bpnclark]

Live2hunt – I have max points and still don’t like the point system. I think I like the idea of having the drawing with multiple entries based by your points. If you have 6 points you have 6#s entered into the raffle. If you 2 points you have 2#s entered.

Its still kind of hard to think that in 30 years (with still no tag) the max points with be 36.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tmoniz @ Jun 4 2008, 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

If somebody has the dough and needs a good right off. Let them knock themselves out.
Doesn't mean they are going to fill that Tag.
It's not a sure thing.[/b]

Its a sure thing. I dont think someone paying $85,000 for a sheep tag is not going to get their sheep. And look at the success rates on all the hunts. There all pretty much 100% (except for the Antelope hunts)

 

[tmoniz]

The auction tag buyers are not "do it yourself hunters." They will hire a guide.
I know of only one person that purchased an open tag last year that's a die hard mule deer hunter.
This guy can cover some ground and knows what he is after.
The majority of auction tag hunters especially for Sheep and Elk. Will hire a guide to make it a sure thing.

 

[bpnclark]

No doubt. I think I would too if I just dropped that much $ on a tag. If I ever win the lottery that’s the first thing I’ll do. And I'll hire a film crew to video it.

And how many tags really get auctioned? Will they really come up with the same amount with a raffle? Maybe for the elk tags but not the sheep. FNAWS and RMEF do great things for the sheep and elk. They make it possible for the extra tags in the first place, so I think they should be able to auction them off at their dinners and raise the $. There is no one to hire to raffle and go through and make tickets. The auctions are simple and fast.

 

[suavegato]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Live2hunt @ Jun 4 2008, 07:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Sounds to me like someone got into the point system late and is now trying to jump up the line.
L2H[/b]

WRONG... both myself & bpnclark (the two main posters behind the push for change on this thread) have MAX Points and still don't like the system...

and to everyone else who keeps saying that there aren't enough animals for the number of hunters and so no system is going to change that or guarantee anyone a tag... WE GET THAT! No one has said that ANY system will change the number of animals, number of tags etc. we know that no matter what system is in place, it will still involve some luck AND persistency...

I think I speak for bpnclark as well when I say that our main problem with the current system is that it is WAY TOO skewed in favor of ONLY those who started in 2002 and have got their points ever since, or MAX Point holders. (of which we both are as well)! We realize there is no perfect system, that doesn’t mean that there couldn’t be a BETTER system… Man, it seems like y’all just want to give up, throw your hands up in the air and just say, “it is what it is”… That’s fine, if you’re happy with the current system, good for you, but it seems like many of you just think that you have to accept it and it doesn’t matter anyway, cuz there aren’t enough animals for everyone anyway… There is an option, people can and do effect change. We could throw some tea in the harbor and make some waves!

Let me ask y’all this? Take the lottery for example. Say the State lottery had a “max points rule”, so that 75% of the lottery dollars won were awarded to ONLY those who had played every week since it’s inception and the rest of the people only played for the remaining 25%. Would you play that lottery? Would you think that was fair that if you weren’t a max point holder that not only 75% of your contributing funds were going to support ONLY max point holders, but also, you could ONLY compete for %25 of the funds…. AND THERE WAS NO WAY FOR YOU TO EVER CHANGE THAT (in your lifetime)… Now consider this, according to the numbers posted here, last year there were 26,000 people who applied for Elk tags. Of those, 7,842 were max point holders. So, 75% of ALL of the elk tags went to only 30% of those who applied… So the majority of tags go to the minority of applicants… Not real fair but not too terribly bad in and of itself but, don’t forget, 7,842 people are being awarded 75% of the tags that non max point folks don’t even get a shot at and then, those who aren’t successful at those tags, then get lumped back in the rest, so that now 26,000 are now vying for the remaining 25%... So 7,842 get 75% of the tags and 26,000 get 25%...

Our main point is that the door was only open for 1 year to get in as a max point holder and now the door is slammed shut for our foreseeable lifetimes… and like has already been said ad nauseum, what about those with children who weren’t old enough to hunt in 2002 but now are… how can I ever go on a premium tag hunt with them? What about hunters who moved here from another state? Someone who had a death or illness and missed a year, etc. etc. etc. It just seems like the system should have some way for others to catch up.. and as has been said, I HAVE MAX POINTS!

How bout this, since we all know it’s a “crap shoot” even with max points… then why not just take the tags and everyone gets 1 raffle ticket in the hopper for every point they have… so those who have been in since the beginning have better odds, they have 6 raffle tickets, but someone who come sin late, can still compete with their one ticket but will also start building up tickets (points) and increasing their odds every year as well…

THAT seems like a more fair system to me…? JMO YMMV

 

[suavegato]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bpnclark @ Jun 5 2008, 09:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

No doubt. I think I would too if I just dropped that much $ on a tag. If I ever win the lottery that’s the first thing I’ll do. And I'll hire a film crew to video it.

And how many tags really get auctioned? Will they really come up with the same amount with a raffle? Maybe for the elk tags but not the sheep. FNAWS and RMEF do great things for the sheep and elk. They make it possible for the extra tags in the first place, so I think they should be able to auction them off at their dinners and raise the $. There is no one to hire to raffle and go through and make tickets. The auctions are simple and fast.[/b]

I agree... as i've said, I'm not against the auctions, the money raised is essential to the game programs... I was just wondering IF they could raise the same amount or more? by raffle, that would give the working man a shot too... I wouldn't be in favor of the raffle at the cost of raised funds though. If the money raised went down, then I would support the auction. Maybe the raffle wouldn't raise the same amount of $, I don't know but it would be interresting for them to try with 1 bull elk tag and see? Maybe it would fall far flat? It was just a thought...

 

[tmoniz]

I don't think the idea of a raffle is a bad idea at all. The population of high rollers out there would probably be out numbered by us working stiffs. It may have the potential to raise quite a bit of money.
Interesting idea.



(By the way Suave. That's one heck of a buck in your avatar.)

 

[bpnclark]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (suavegato @ Jun 5 2008, 10:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Say the State lottery had a “max points rule”, so that 75% of the lottery dollars won were awarded to ONLY those who had played every week since it’s inception and the rest of the people only played for the remaining 25%.[/b]

That is it right there. I guess some people think that would be fair too? When it comes down to it, it’s all in the luck of the draw. But with most of that luck going to the people with max points, that’s not right if there is no way for people to ever catch up.

I think it would also be good to include 1 Tule Bull tag and 1 sheep tag for some type of raffle. Not to take away a tag, but to add one.