Big Horn Ranch in So Cal?? Help

[EVAN III]

First off I'd like to say this conversation has taken A good turn, it has gone from something that could have been ugly, to a interesting debate.

Greg, if you are planning on hunting big horn someday, more power to you, when I hunted it, I did it with a handgun. I ended up shooting a nice moreno ram. As for those who say they won't run, well someone forgot to tell mine that. Was it the most challenging hunt, well no. But that ram at least made me work for it.

ANyway, thanks for be civil gentelman, and happy hunting.

 

[huntducks]

Moderators I don't see where this post ever got out of hand it was some hunters disagreeing on what they perceived as hunting, no name calling just a disagreement on the BIG PICTURE here.

Evan I got a new toy a 357-44 BD (had the dies all I needed was the gun) and would like to see if I can hit one of them barn yard petting zoo sheep or maybe I should just take a box cutter along

azhalvy make sure you take your son as offten as you can

 

[jmabbott888]

Ok now that the debates over I can ask a question lol. Azhalvy, you said you boy was 7? If we get the Carrizo hunt going in January how about you & him coming along? I need a good excuse to bring my 6 yr old out & I think that would be a good 1. Next Q how hard of a hike did you have at that ranch? Seems like it might be a good place to let my boy try for a goat or sheep, I'm not sure if he could handle a weapon large enough for pig.

Evan, how many of these forums are you a moderator of? You seem to be in all of them lol. Thanks moderators for not shutting this discussion down, you guys did your jobs great, not letting anything get out of hand, again good job

 

[Loye]

I think everybody scared AZHALVY off. Its alright man I think everyone has calmed down.

(make this root beer) Im only 16.

Whats the diff. between FHL and Camp Roberts ?(hunting wise)

 

[EVAN III]

jmabbot888,

I don't even know how many I moderate, I guess we all just browse and see what happens. I've been following this thread though, because I was interested in the out come of AZHALVY's hunt with his kid and Dad. I just didn't want to see a good debate go to waste because someone took offence to someone else's statement. Like I said before, I enjoy a good debate. I think it was you that ask how the hike was, well it's alot of up and down hills. Some of the hills the sheep and goats hang out on are almost straight up. It should be alright for your little one though. In fact he would probly do better then me, since I'm not in the greatest shape and I'm sure he is a bottomless pit of energy. well guys it's been fun.

Greg,

The thread didn't really get out of hand, It just looked as if it Might. And like I said I hate to see a good debate go to waste. As you know there have been some good debates around here, all part of learning I guess. As for the new pistol, sounds like a winner to me. Congrats on the new toy. One question for you though, you said I had the dies, but not the gun, well what don't you have dies for, from the looks of it you could open your own ammo factory *lol* anyway, good luck on your hunt with it, where ever you go.

 

[azhalvy]

AZhalvy is still here! JMABBOTT888 - Where's Carrizo? I've taken my son on several bird hunts, in fact we are going to Arizona in a week for some Dove hunting with my dad.

The terrain at BHCR is pretty hilly. My son did better walking around than I did! It was challenging but not impossible. He keeps asking me when we are going back again!

 

[huntducks]

Evan

You reloading yet???

One can never have enought loading stuff LOL.

 

[machine]

The Big Horn Ranch, also offers an Alaskan hunting & fishing trip too.

And you can hunt coyotes there free. (on the ranch)
And there not brought in on a truck.

Just my 2 cents?

 

[BLASTMASTER]

I live REAL close to that place. I know that years ago, 4 0r 5 miles away in the same "Badlands" area, there was another ranch that imported Russian Boars for hunting. Occasionally you'll hear of someone hitting one on San Timoteo Cyn Rd., or of them tearing up some property. One that was severely injured last year was varified by some wildlife biologist as a yearling Russian, and the tracks that left the area indicated at least 2 adults in the group. I go out there to the canyon now and then, but it's steep and hard-going and I haven't found where they're hiding yet. If anyone has an inside track, let me know.

As far as the ranch there goes, I'd be there if it were free, or you never know, I might even pay. I don't see the problem.

 

[EVAN III]

Greg,

Yup, I've been doing some loading, and I know what you mean about not having to much stuff. I actully have a few sets of dies that I don't have the guns for also. I just keep telling myself " self, you might get that gun someday" There's always hope. By the way the press works great, I see what you were saying about the ball rather then the rubber handle. A ball is much more comfortable, and you don't have to change your grip when you pull down.

 

[jmabbott888]

Evan, your in better shape than me as I remember lol I'm 6ft about 260 lbs & smoke a pack a day lol.

Azhalvy, Carrizo Plains is on the San Luis Obispo/ Kern county line west of Bakersfield. On the map it's between hwy58 on the north & hwy166 on the south. You turn north on Soda Lake road off of 166 & go in about 19 miles to the campground there. It's dirt rd with some washboard on it but you can make it all the way thru in a 2wd car when its dry but it can get a bit sticky in wet weather. Check the JHP Hunts section on this webpage for more info on it.

 

[Bishop]

There's a huntable population of feral pigs in San Timateo canyon, but there on the County preserve that is at the 60 fwy/10fwy split. DFG has tried to set up hunts there, but like the Santa Ana River pigs (over 600 now) the county game commission is draging their feet.

 

[Bill W]

While it may be that USA hunter said it a bit stronger than many like, I've got to say I agree with him 100%.

Much of the Country (and certainly much of this state) has a negative view toward hunters. There are some people we'll never have a chance with (such as the PETA crowd), but once the average non-hunter learns the facts, he or she is generally not against genuine FAIR CHASE hunting.

But FAIR CHASE is what defines "hunting". Otherwise it is nothing more than killing for the sake of killing. Nothing more, nothing less. Quite frankly, as a guy who does actually hunt, I take great offense at the activity described by Azhalvy being called "hunting". What he did was to pay some money for the chance to go kill a pig. There is ZERO difference between what he did and what I once did on my uncle's farm before we bar-b-qued a pig. When I walked up and shot that pig in the head with a .22 it was not hunting. Even if I had put camo's and face paint on before pulling the trigger it still would not have been hunting. The ONLY thing that makes it hunting is fair chase. That is an ethic that defines hunting.

Those of us who are experienced hunters are supposed to know that a hunt is not defined by whether something dies. It is our job to explain in no uncertain terms to those who are coming into the sport the ethics of this thing we call hunting. There ARE ethics. The fact that a beginner REALLY REALLY wants to shoot something is no excuse for shooting tame or fenced animals and calling it a hunt.

If you are a beginner and want to shoot something (nothing wrong with that by the way, we've all been at that stage), then go hunt cottontail rabbits. Rabbits are the elementary school of hunting and have been for eons. Learn how to stalk game. Learn how to clean game and prepare it for the table. Pay your dues and don't disrespect and cheapen hunting by engaging in the activities described in this thread.

I really don't blame Azhavly for his attitude. Azhalvy says he's just getting into hunting. That is great. It is wonderful fun and you will see amazing things if you spend enough time in the outdoors. The times you will have with your son should be wonderful for you both and character building for him. But the fact that you are a beginner probably means that you didn't have a hunting Dad or Uncle who brought you into the sport. Who taught you the ethics. Taught you the basics which you later honed to whatever skill level you achieved. Most of us who grew up hunting started on rabbits and birds and dreamed for the day when we'd be old enough (and skilled enough) to take big game. We learned the ropes. As an eight year old I cleaned my first cottontail. First my uncle cleaned one and showed me how. He then told me to go to it. I was a bit squeamish and I didn't want to, yet I was told that I killed it and I darn well better start cleaning it if I ever planned on hunting again. I was taught to respect game. Don't let it suffer needlessly. Don't waste it. On and on.

You guys may think it's better that Azhalvy should shoot tame pigs than become an anti-hunter, but I disagree. Because every time the stories of such "hunting" ranches are heard by non-hunters, those people are converted into anti-hunters by the boatload. If what he did is hunting then I too am an anti-hunter. It is needlessly cruel to kill a tame animal with a bow. Just like I'd never consider killing a barnyard animal with a bow because of the needless suffering it would cause, I'd never condone doing the same thing to a tame animal in the "wild" of a fenced enclosure. Real bowhunting, on the other hand, is true sport and great challenge. It took me months and months as a thirteen year old to get good enough with a bow, and good enough at stalking, to kill my first cottontail. But even at that age I knew it was about much more than killing. If it it were just the kill I could have shot a cat off a fence or bought a rabbit at the pet store with my allowance. If an animal is tame enough to walk up and shoot it between the eyes and you want some meat, then by all means have at it. But for God's sake, don't call that hunting.

So in conclusion Azhalvy, I do not mean this to be an attack on you. Please do not take it as such. I only ask that you and others who defend your actions give serious consideration to my words and see if maybe you agree that the activity you guys engaged in can not fairly be called hunting. And further, I ask that you consider whether in the future it is wise to educate your son as to these hunting ethics.

Bill

 

[CSUHunter]

Bill-

As one of the people who originally started this debate, I must say that you have presented your case in a very respectable way. There is not one part of your post I could bash for being out of line, or anything else, and I think everyone appriciates that. That being said, I didn't get the idea from any of the posts that these animals I fresh out of the barn, and lead into a corral where I hunter is waiting to exicute it. I would look at it more like a pheasant club. Those birds are pen raised, and have never seen the wild, yet millions of people enjoy hunting them every year. I seriously doubt you could walk up to one of these pigs and pet it on the head while in the field. With that said, I think that your post kind of nullifies itself, if my statements are true. If what you are saying is true, I am right there with you buddy, that isn't hunting, and shouldn't be called hunting under any circumstances.


Dan

 

[Bill W]

I have to disagree CSU hunter. I should start by saying I have never been to such a place and did not even know the local one existed. But in listening to the comments on this thread from those who have seen it it sounds like these animals ARE barnyard animals that willingly (and dumbly) go to slaughter.

Sd Hunter said :

"The pigs are a joke. I went with my buddy who was trying out a new gun. He shot a pig out of a group of 5 or 6 and the group didn't even take off when he dropped his pig. They just stood there looking at us like they were hungry and we had food for them. "


Jungleboy said:
"My friend suggested that even though they are farm pigs, they will make good table fare, and that he will 'take' one. He raised his shotgun to shoot, and I told him "Wait! lets see how close we can get". Then we proceeded to walk right up to them!!!!
I SWEAR, if we had whistled, and called them, they would have probably wiggled their tails, and come running!!! NO KIDDING! At this time, I told my buddy that I would not be interested in shooting one, as these are someones pet, and don't quite 'get' what's happenning here.
He decided to pass on the pair, and continue looking in hopes of finding a 'wilder' one. After having lunch, we went looking for them again.... We saw another 2. They just stood there while my friend shot one. The other one got initially startled, and ran may be about.... 20 or 30 yards.... then stopped.... looked at us for 30 seconds or so.... and proceeded to 'munching' on something on the ground !!!!!"

End of excerpts.

I will agree that the horned animals sound as if they are marginally more difficult (assuming you are hunting with a bow) based on the comment that the hunters couldn't get within sixty-five yards. But having said that, I must wonder about what attempts were made to get within sixty-five yards. Are these "hunters" using the wind. Are they stalking or walking. (If you are a hunter you know the difference). If they connect with an animal, who cleans it? Because I can guess the answer to these questions I believe that this is a HORRIBLE experience for a beginning hunter because it showcases none of the attributes of what real hunting is.

There is some truth in your analogy with planted pheasants, but for the most part it is apples and oranges IMO. It really depends on the situation. I no longer hunt planted birds because I am fortunate enough to have relatives with land populated by wild birds and I can afford to go to other states where they are plentiful. I realize not everyone can be in that boat and to a certain extent rely on luck of the draw to determine whether they are actually hunting pen raised "wild" pheasant vs. shooting tame pheasants.

I have hunted planted birds that flushed and flew just about as well as wild ones. The level of skill and texture of the experience in such situations was pretty darn close to hunting wild birds. I have also seen planted birds from game farms that literally would not fly until you kicked them. That darn near any dog could catch without you ever firing a shot. I think the difference between the two types of birds has everything to do with the size of the pen, the strain of birds, and the length of time the birds remain in the field before the hunt.

There is a family in the Chico area that raises pheasant in large numbers for release on hunting preserves. The name of the family is Elves. Those birds are damn good. They are slightly smaller than most of the pen-raised birds I've seen which gives them a natural advantage in being a better flyer over some of the huge "pen pig" pheasants you'll see. The Elves family raises their birds in outdoor "pens" about a half acre in size which are covered with netting some fifteen feet off the ground. The interiors of of the pens are loaded up with tons of knee-high grasses and other cover. Those birds learn to stay in cover and they know how to fly very well because they are doing it all the time in those pens. While they don't approach the wiliness of a wild birds as far as circling on dogs, running out ahead, etc. They do flush and fly a heck of a lot like wild birds. The birds will hide. They will flush and fly like hell if you get too close. If you miss the shot, they will be long gone before you ever reload. A lot get taken by predators, but a lot last the length of the season and a few even hold over till the next. The ones that last a few weeks are as good as wild. Personally, I believe the difference is their better flying skills and due to the fact that they are used to hiding in cover. I'd say that hunting those birds the day after their release is eighty percent of the experience as compared to hunting a wild bird. Certainly enough that I'd call it fair chase hunting.

On the other hand, there are some places that raise pheasants that do not fly and practically need to be kicked into the air. They don't know enough to get out of the open and hide in cover. Those birds may have their place in dog training if there's no pigeons available, but I can't honestly say that killing those things is pheasant hunting IMO.

Bill

 

[CSUHunter]

Bill, you definitely bring an intesting point to the table, and I guess the only wat to know for sure would be to visit the ranch and see for myself. I took most of the comments you posted with a grain of salt, as they were followed by many other posts stating that the ranch was a good place to hunt, and had no mention of literally petting your animal before shooting it.

I guess what got me riled up in the first place was that people often don't realize that not everyone has the oppurtunity to get started in a life of hunting as a small child. I was fortunate enough to have this experience, and I believe I am a better person today because of it. I believe that game farms in genral allow for a fairly easy first kill, and often wet the appitite for hunting which can stay with people a long time. As I am sure you know, hunting on public land is a chore more than anything, and takes a tremendous amount of time to produce results often. People are often more likely to stick it out and work for it if they have experienced success in the past. Can you honestly say that if you had never hunted before, and you went out and hiked 30 miles over 5 Saturdays, and never saw a single pig that you would consider that a fun activity? I don't know many people who can say that they would. Not to mention if you have never hunted, how do you know the difference between hog scat and dog scat?

Also, last time I checked most guides don't say, "Yeah, bring your 8 year old along with you, I'd love to have him." This just doesn't happen most of the time, and so people are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Or maybe they don't have the money to pay for a fully guided trip, what then?

It is all these things that make me so glad to have a place like JHP to call home. The people here are more than willing to help, often very family oriented and "kid" friendly, as they are bringing their little ones along as well. When I see people getting down on others for trying to introduce the outdoors to their children, it bothers me. Are they teaching their kids the same way you or I was taught? Maybe not, but as I said, some exposure is better than no exposure.

As for the pheasants, I realize there is a difference. I have hunted the same bird club for the past 4 or 5 years, and now am going to be working there this season for some supplemental income. I have never had a single bird not fly, and they very often out smart the dogs using duck and cover techniques. After your post, I realize that there is a very good chance the birds I hunt are raised by the people you know, as these birds are very good flyers, and often last throughout the year. I consider what I do hunting, and the fact that I can get a group of guys together and go bag 20 birds is better to me than spending three weeks on public land and shooting one rooster. I just don't have the time to be out there all the time...plain and simple.

I am glad we can have such a civil debate and things never turn into anything that could be interpeted as bad feelings. This is yet another reason why I find JHP so amazing.

 

[EVAN III]

Ok while were on the topic of public perception, then I ask you what about the biggest form of media there is. Television?? Most of the hunting shows are filmed on private ranches and show only the kill shots (for the most part). Should we boycott hunting shows because they are on ranches? granted, they are still mostly more difficult hunts, but the public doesn't see that part of the hunt anyway.

Bill,
As for the Big Hormn Ranch, Like I posted earlier, I have hunted it, you would be correct in saying that the "horned" animals give a more challenge, but I will say this, not all the pigs will let you walk up to them. When I was there there were a few pigs that would let you walk up pretty close, but there were also some pigs that wouldn't let you get close at all. When I hunted the ranch, I did it with a pistol, and I shot my ram at around 35 yards. I will say it wasn't all that easy, Some of the terrain on the ranch isn't fit for a Mt. Goat, let alone a person. So I guess from my experience, Yes there are animals that will let you get close to them, and there are animals that are just like wild animals. It's all what you make of it. If you just want to kill something you can do it, if you want to hunt something you can do that to. the topic of ethics, well, that's always a subject people won't agree on. Alot of people don't like trapping, the use of dogs (I.E. treed animals), baiting, hunting over fields (crops), and a bunch of other types of hunting. I hunt primarily with handguns and I used to only hunt using a bow, In fact I used to call useing a rifle, using a sissy stick. ( sorry guys.) But I find myself hard pressed to put another hunter down or critize another hunter for practiceing his or her type of hunting. Looking at other types of hunting, how is it more sporting to follow a dog and then shooting an animal out of a tree challenging?? Well to some people it's extremely challenging, it's not my cup of tea, and I have never personally done it. But Thats how some people do it, and I can't say one way or the other if it's right or wrong. What about parrie dogs, some people sit up to 1,000 yards away and shoot them. yes you have to be able to hit them, but where's the real challenge? Spend enough money, and a little time at the range, and your there. While I don't totally disagree with you, I do think it's all in the eye of the beholder. While others see it as challenging, some think it's unethical. By the way, I 'm trying to cover everything, here. (bear with me) You asked whether stalking the Horned animals was like walking or stalking, and did they use the wind. here's my anwser. I spotted the ram crossing a small dirt road ( not from a vehicle, as there is no vehicle traffic on the ranch) He saw me and was gone, I hiked threw ( over) about two canyons before I saw him again. I was kind of a long ways off when I spotted him, so I stalked him, useing the wind and basiclly crawling. I went one canyon past the one I saw him enter last and then climbed to the top of the other canyon ( with the wind in my favor). Which was not a small task. The hills on that ranch rivil some of the worst in california. They are covered with loose shale (or something like it). I spotted the ram further back into the canyon so I dropped down into the canyon and then climbed back up at the point were I thought I would come up across the canyon from him. Well, it worked, I had maybe a 50 to 60 yard shot on him. between trying to stay low enough below the horizon to not be seen and take my shot, ( now don't laugh) I cocked the hammer back set on target, and just as I let drop I lost my footing and threw my shot almost straight up in the air. The ram was off to the races at this point. I made it to the top just in time to see the ram enter some brush near the bottom of the canyon. At this point he would be running by me at around 30 to 35 yards trying to escape the canyon he was in. I found a clearing in the brush and when he hit it I shot, he keep on running, I figured I missed again and made my way to the bottom of the canyon on my butt just as the ram was coming out of the canyon I took another shot as he was quartering away from me, well he keep running. I thought at this point I figured I had better go back to the range and learn how to shoot. As I was watching him run away he took a header about 250 yards from me and didn't move again. It turns out I had put two shots right where they should have been. I personally thought he was a pretty tough cookie, seeing as how he went a good 300 yards with two 270 gr. soft point .44 mags going about 1450 fps. ( handloads) Right threw his bread basket. Ok, now since I'm trying to tell how it is, I'll add the not so tough and not so challenging part of the hunt. After I made it to the ram and checked to be sure he was dead, I sat down to catch my breath, after about 10 min. one of the guys that works on the ranch pulls up at the bottom of the canyon on an ATV. ( Another thing some people do that other's wouldn't, useing an atv for hunting, some people prefer to pack out there own game) We threw the ram up on the rack on the atv and he took it up to the staging area, Then yes, I'm guilty, I let him clean it and quarter it out. That I guess was the BAD hunter part of it. Yes, I agree that you should dress your own game, but hey for 20 bucks I figured what the heck. So now that's my story. Honestly, I could have probly have shot a pig the first 30 mins. I was there, but I guess thats where the part of, " it's all what you make of it" comes in. Sorry for the long drawn out story, but I just wanted to point out how it can be, if thats what you make of it. Take what you want from the story, it still wasn't the toughest hunt, but I wasn't like shooting a "barnyard" animal either.

Well I must say this thread has turned into something very interesting. I will be going hunting for the weekend so you guys enjoy. Happy hunting to all.

 

[azhalvy]

Well, Bill W, thanks for the negativity and trying to ruin my first hunt with my son. It's people like you that could turn people away from HUNTING, that's right I said HUNTING!!! You have never been there, you can't go by what other people say. You weren't there when I shot my pig. He ran away from us several times and we had to track him for about 2 miles. Every time we would get close enough (40 yard) to set up for a shot, off he would go. So please, don't assume anything unless you were there! It really makes me angry when people that have never seen anything or been there try to draw conclusions about something. Get you butt out there, experience it, then draw you conclusions. If I lived my life drawing conclusions about someone or someplace based on other peoples comments, heck I never would have gotten married! You have to live it and experience it for youself. I take great offense by what you said. You are basically accusing me of having no morals or ethics. Screw you! You don't know me! I have never in my life killed any animal (birds) that I have not eaten. This is my first animal other than birds that I have shot and have enjoyed eating it! No other post on this topic got under my skin until I read yours. No one attacked my morals until you...you crossed the line. There is only one way that you would be able to draw a conclusion on Big Horn Canyon Ranch - Hunt it yourself! Once you do that, then come talk to me and give me your opinions on whether it is hunting or not, until then...Don't attack another man's moral or ethics. I would never have shot my pig had it just stood there while I walked up to it. Come on! What kind of person do you think I am? I might as well shot my neighbor's dog. It's people like you that keep hunters from telling their hunting stories to people.
If someone takes an animal with any kind of weapon, that is there God given right. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's wrong. Some people might not agree with the way you hunt. I don't know you, have never been hunting with you so I can't say how ethical you are. I would never attack your morals or ethics. I guess the bottom line is - don't judge people unless you know them and have seen what they do.

 

[EVAN III]

Ok guys, please remember to keep it civil. If you don't agree or get offended by someone's post, then by all means say so, but be sure you do it in a civil maner.

 

[m57jager]

CSU Hunter,

"Can you honestly say that if you had never hunted before, and you went out and hiked 30 miles over 5 Saturdays, and never saw a single pig that you would consider that a fun activity?"

Hell yes. Try 6 years of do it yourself deer hunting, hard hunting, before I bagged my first buck. Come to think of it, it was my first game animal. It's a learning process, whether you have help or not. Those great hunters didn't become great overnight. It took a lot of time and energy without seeing game. I was raised that if your not going to eat it then don't shoot it and I really didn't have all that many opportunities to see anything worth eating. I have an appetite too!! LOL I had a father who worked(travelled) all the time to put food on the table for us. In fact, the only fishing we ever did was trout. I had to wait until I was old enough to get out there myself. I was on the boats all the time at 14 with a couple friends. Then I got a job as a deckhand for awhile. We learned by watching others, not even the hands showed us how. Yes, on those hunts my father taught us about ethics. But a lot of my hunting knowledge came from reading, and figuring it out as I go. Try my father going on 19 deer seasons without bagging a deer. He used to get his buck every year in New Mexico and then he moved. He keeps going at it even though he knows he can't make it to far away from the road(bad back). Even if we don't get an animal, we see and experience so much while were out there. You tell me, what HUNTER wouldn't be satisfied about getting out in the woods for a weekend, sitting around the fire at night, and sleeping under the stars. Your in the middle of another world, paradise, when your out there. The hunt is the pursuit and has nothing to do with the actual harvesting. Answer me this, can you have a great hunt and not harvest an animal?



EVAN III,

I agree with you. Those hunting videos and TV are horrible publicity for hunting. It gives antis as well as hunters a warped view of our passion. New hunters think they are supposed to walk in and out of the field at the end the day dragging game, just like that. Antis see the all the killing and don't see the time involved, the hunters love for the environment and wildlife, and the care for the game afterwards(not wasting). To them, it's some guy who needs to kill and cut the head off and waste the rest.
Yes, boycott them, their bad for hunting.