Big Horn Ranch in So Cal?? Help

[Hogskin]

I've never hunted the BHR but from what I've heard I wouldn't consider it hunting any more than I'd consider a guided hog hunt in Paso Robles (which I've done a bunch of times) hunting. But if it's legal, somebody wants to spend their money on it, gets to spend quality time with their kids, and has a blast doing it, I say knock yourself out. When we get to condemning each other for how/why/where we hunt, we're on a slippery slope and it's heading to a bad place. If you want to give a guy a hard time for hunting "less than wild" pigs, some criticism can easily be thrown in your direction. Unless you're running around nekkid slinging atlatls at animals, you're taking the easy way out. Where are you going to draw the line? I frankly don't give a squirt what the anti-hunters think about what I do.

Regards,
Paul

 

[CSUHunter]

m57jager-

Yes I have had many successful hunts without putting anything in the bag or the freezer. I enjoy being in the outdoors just as much as the next guy, and I am willing to work to earn the oppurtunity to harvest an animal. To me, the harvest is probably the least important part of the trip. However, for someone who has NEVER been exposed to hunting, this isn't likely to be the case. I realize that there are people who have hunted tons of hours with no animal to show, and that is fine. What I am saying is that it is hard to get a newcomer excited about that, rather than discouraged. I will guarentee you if I grabbed one of my non-hunting buddies and took them hunting with me, and we walked 20 miles in a weekend, and never saw a thing, they would think of it as an unsuccessful trip and maybe a waste of time. In my opinion a sucessful first hunt can get someone hooked, and teach them the persistance that we are debating over....

Dan

 

[azhalvy]

CSUHunter - I agree with what you said. You can never change a first impression about hunting. I love hearing my son tell his friends about his first real hunting trip - with success (even though I was the one doing the shooting). I'm sure if we hadn't gotten anything he would still have had a good time but being able to talk about what we did get was a great memory.

 

[Bill W]

A little clarification.

In the first place Azhalvy, I'm sorry you took such offense by my post. It was not my intent to offend you. I applaud the fact that you spend quality time with your kids, but that wasn't the point of my post. The point of my post was to respond to the concept of your "hunting" activity. You defend it as real hunting implying that there was a significant challenge. Yet in the same breath you said that you repeatedly spooked and re-approached the hog you eventually shot. In my mind, an animal that will allow itself to be approached repeatedly to something close to forty yards is not wild in any sense of the word. If it is not wild, then, by definition, it is at least semi-tame. Shooting semi-tame or fenced animals isn't hunting. Everyone seems to be missing the fact that simply FINDING a shootable legal game is probably the toughest part of a real hunt. The fact that you are hunting in a small fenced area (yes 3500 acres of hilly chaparral is small) means finding the game is not even an issue. From some of the comments, it seems as if guides are saying something like "Walk down that road and you'll see animals." I'm sorry guys, but that ain't a hunt. It may be true that your pig wouldn't let you get close enough to brain it with an axe, but that is hardly the definition of huntable quarry in my mind.

I'm sure you're a nice guy Azhalvy, and I in no way intended to imply that you were less than moral. But having said that, I stand by my comments that the place you hunted (and the activity you participated in) is a stain on the ethics of hunting and does damage to the cause of keeping hunting being viewed as an honorable pursuit by the non-hunting public. In the final analysis, we'll have to agree to disagree over what constitutes hunting. I hope you can accept the fact that my view of this issue is different than yours without getting upset over it. If we ever meet at a JHP activity, the first beer is on me.

As for the comments concerning cleaning game, I did not mean to imply that just because you have your game cleaned by someone else makes you less than a "pure hunter". In the first place, the issue of cleaning game is waaaayyy down the list of importance compared to the question of whether the "hunt" meets the accepted definitions of "fair chase". That being said, I raised the issue of cleaning game in response to the comments that the Big Horn ranch was a good experience for a beginner. Personally, I feel that a part of hunting is developing an understanding and respect for the game as food. Beginners, especially beginning kids, should be made to understand that. On its most basic level, obtaining food was the purpose of the hunt when the hunting drive of humans was being refined. The fact that there was a kill which preceded the food was not an end of itself. It was a means to an end. Part and parcel of respecting the game is taking part in its transformation from a living being, to a dead animal, to food for the table. It is part of the tradition of the hunt. In my view, it is important to instill that respect for game in beginning hunters and cleaning game is one of the means to that end. Aside from that, there is (or should be) a great deal of woodsmanship, outdoor skills, and understanding of what makes living things tick which should go along with hunting. Knowing how to clean game is a part of all that. But, unlike the concept of fair chase, I honestly view cleaning game more along the lines of a desired learning experience than an absolute requirement for an ethical hunt. I see absolutely nothing wrong with an experienced (not to mention plan tuckered out) hunter flipping someone a twenty to take care of the game.

I understand (and agree with) the idea that beginning hunters need to be successful at hunting to stay interested. That does not (in my opinion) justify shooting tame or fenced animals and calling it a hunting trip. If you want to insure that a beginning hunter is successful, take him rabbit hunting. You can observe the rules of fair chase yet still be successful. Let the kid EARN the right to put down that .22 and instead shoulder a deer rifle. It is the love of the hunt (born of the burning desire to move on to the next level) which makes a real hunter out of a kid and a pro-hunting voter out of a citizen.

There is a reason beginning hunters don't traditionally start out on big game: Big game hunting, if done ethically, is usually pretty tough to be successful at. I had hunted small game and birds for a number of years before "graduating" to predators as a guy in my mid-teens. Then I moved on to hunting pigs and deer after that a few years after that. And in spite of that hunting experience, it still took me three seasons to get my first public land southern California buck. While I have killed a couple of coyotes with a bow, I have yet to arrow a deer. It's not for lack of trying. But make no mistake about it, every time I walked away empty handed from my deer stand, the lack of a dead animal in no way meant I hadn't been hunting.

The bottom line is that all of the foregoing are nothing but my opinions. (And you know what they say about opinions.) I threw them out there because that is the purpose of the board as I understand it.

Bill

 

[huntducks]

BillW

I will agree with some of your points and disagree with others, maybe your interpertation of fair chase and mine are different.

What would you say if a guy hunted a 10 acre woodlot with a 10 acre corn crop and shot a 150 class whitetail, how about hunting a island for deer or bears, how about turkeys on a 80 acre farm surounded by homes I for one do not see where acerage has anything to do with fair chase.

How about the deer & elk that migrate out of Yellowstone every year they have interacted with people all summer, same goes for many of our X zone deer coming out of Yosemite, Kings, Sequoia, NP some have lived and been feed all summer by campers.

Your statement about shooting one pig and the others standing around looking, man that has happened to me with Elk and Mule deer both, I shot a 5x5 bull and two others stood over him while I walked out, I got with in 20 yards and had to yell shoo & even threw a rock at them, they ran 100 yards off and still stood and looked back for 5min, i've had mule deer do same, along with turkeys, how many times have you shot Geese or ducks only to have one circle back over, some times even the one you shot at, does that make them tame.

Like Evan pointed out what one hunter see's as hunting another might not and that's what makes the world go around.

 

[jmabbott888]

Well hell, lets get things going here, first off I take offence to what was said, I started HUNTING squirrels back east in the back forty with a BB gun at age 8, shooting them out of trees, yes I cleaned them only cause when your dad is out to sea you have to learn yourself, same with the first dove, we would shoot, they'd fly a few trees over & we would shoot again, those dove were as wild as any in this state. I seen rabbits do the same thing, same with bear & deer on some occasions. My other thing is if you take a kid out & you hike miles & miles & don't see a damn thing they are going to get pretty frustrated & so will you, this I know from experience. The first time I took my oldest boy hunting it was for rabbit, we hiked about 3 or 4 miles on flat ground, saw lots of rabbits but no shots since I looked to see where my boy was before shooting ( he was always a step behind on the rightside where I told him to be) when we did get a rabbit he saw it roll, & he helped clean it. Since then when we go hunt he knows you win some you loose some but know its not a matter of if we get something or not BECAUSE WE HAD GOTTEN 1 BEFORE. If you don't call it hunting to bad WE do call it hunting & there isn't a person in this chat that can tell us any diffrent!! Those farmed raised birds that cost a fortune to hunt are the same hunting as what was offered at the big whatever ranch, & the guided hunts around here that I have checked on are all on fenced property so whats the diffrence with those?, they are bigger? thats aload of crap cause the guides still get you to the game because thats the way they get their money. And as far a stalking ANY animal with a 6,7, or 8 yeart old kid GOODLUCK, most of them including mine couldn't keep quiet enough to keep a deaf man unaware of their presence so how are you going to stalk with that much noise? AZHALVY, the offer still stands, if you wanna go HUNT with kids let me know when & where & if I'm off work I'm game
Later

 

[pitdog]

BillW,

That was awesome! I must say you nailed it!

This has been a great discussion. I think many can learn from this subject.

I know first hand how easy it is to become heated on a subject that really hits home. (e.g. "ground slucing, is it unsportsmanlike?

) I wrote a few things on that thread that I wish I could take back. But now it's history and I hope all is forgiven.

That said, I hope no one has any hard feelings towards each other.

JHP has become quite a place for me personally. I have made great friends like PaulC, who I feel like I've known for 10 years (met at the JHP Wister Coyote hunt last year). Been to a couple JHP Arrowhead hunts and met Hook, Jesse, Bishop, EvanII, Thornsburry etc... Went to a JHP skeet range shoot (triple something?) and met Ted, Fullsack, QALHNTR... just to name a few. When my Salton Sea boat fell apart and had to shoot her (Bessie II), here came BrianS to offer me a replacement (Bessie III). Just when I felt like I was the last hunter in So Cal, I was blessed with the best bunch of hunting buddies you could ask for!

I hope y'all get as much out of this site as I have.

Hopefully this thread continues now that it seems to be civil.

 

[Bill W]

The question is not so much acreage as FENCED acreage. And aside from the question of acreage, there is the issue of TAMENESS. Fences or tameness will, by themselves, make the "hunt" highly suspect in my mind. Combine tame animals with a fence and the whole situation is a joke.

I agree that sometimes wild game does weird stuff like stand still after another animal has been shot. But that stuff is a total fluke. It is unusual enough that it is noteworthy. I'm sure there are guys who have seen a record book buck walk into their camp site as they were eating lunch. I'm also sure most guys would kill that buck if they could get to their gun in time. But that doesn't mean that shooting a record book buck is an easy thing to do. And it does not mean that record buck was tame. The type of thing being described at Big Horn and other game farms is where the situation is INTENDED to be that easy. And USUALLY is. That is a terr9ible thing for our sport. It gives incredible ammunition for the antis to paint us as a bunch of bafoons who hunt solely for the sake of having a target that squirts blood when when shoot it.

Boone and Crockett defines "fair chase" as "the ethical, sportsmanlike and lawful pursuit and taking of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over such animals."

All recognized hunting organizations have similar codes. The "old men" of hunting (Jim O'Conner, Elmer Keith, etc) all had similar views. The grandfather of the conservation ethic integral to sport hunting was Teddy Rooseveldt. He was of the original proponents of the concept of fair chase.

The whole point of the fair chase concept is that there should NOT be a 100% guarantee of sucess. And I understand that there are exceptions and "what if's" you can throw up for anything. I also understand tradition plays a role. I agree that there can be differences of opinion. I have to say though that I'm surprised about the support for this canned-hunt activity from the guys of this board. That support notwithstanding, I strongly believe that just like the overwhelming majority of people would agree that it is not "hunting" to shoot game from vehicles or airplanes, they will also agree that it is not "hunting" to take a farm raised pig that has been fed by people, let it go on a fence ranch, and then shoot it.

Bill

P.S. Hunting whitetail on a woodlot surrounded by standing (or harvested) corn is damn sight different than anything I've heard described at the Big Horn. That deer is damn likely to be laying up in a spot where it can wind every inch of that woodlot from its bed. When it scents, hears, or sees you it will sneak out the otherside and run for teh hills before you ever know it. Or maybe you'll win and get your deer. You never know. That, my friend, is fair chase.

 

[Bill W]

For those who are interested, I posted a poll on this subject on the Campfire board.

Bill

 

[fpscabs]

Wow, I followed the Poll in Campfire to this spot and after reading the posts for most of the movie on the t.v., I see what you are getting at Bill, but where is the line between "fair-chase" and "hunting"? No one ever took me hunting as a kid, no one ever told me how to hunt. I learned by reading every article I could as a kid. Jack O'conner, Ted Trueblood, Fred Bear and all those men told of adventures that I could only live vicariously through. I longed to have a grandpa, dad, uncle or anyone to take me out. As I posted in the Poll in campfire, WHEN IT COMES TO TASTE, THERE CAN BE NO DISPUTE. His method my not be what your stomach likes, but that doesn't mean that it is any less of a hunt.
Because I hunt with a rifle, am I less of a hunter than someone with a bow? It may be in the eyes of a true archer that any gun hunting is not fair chase. It may be that anyone using a compound bow is not truely hunting for a long bow archer.
Because I troll a lure, a true flyfisher may not view that as truely fishing. When I fish a wet fly, a dry fly purist would not feel that is true fishing. When I take my kids out and plop green playdoe on a treble hook, I am still fishing.
Now, free range type animals in a closed environment is a different arguement. But how big is enough to make it more of a fair-chase type hunt. Tejon Ranch is a managed ranch with lots more land, but it still is a closed environment to hunt . I am in no way saying the animals are the same "wild" type as Bighorn Ranch, but the animals in both places are raised or cared for hunters to harvest. I would imagine that I could see more pigs or deer in one morning hunting than I ever have hunting in California. I have seen three live bucks hunting in two years and harvested two of them and the third was a spike, all on public land.
It is true that you do not have a truely free animals at BHR, but you still have an animal that you have to pursue, i.e. hunt. The act of pursuing for food is called hunting. You cannot change that fact. Azhalvy did hunt. He did something for his kids that I would daydream about all the time- take his kids hunting. I envey those kids. Think about it, they got to hunt not only with dad, but grandpa too.
Yes, the technical, B&C fair chase type hunt this may not have been, but it was a hunt. He found game, pursued it, harvested and enjoyed its bounty. GREAT JOB AZHALVY.
By trying to get more people involved in this unanswerable debate will not do anything postive for this great sport. No one can say their method is better than another when it comes to the manner in which that person wants to pursue this sport. Yes, there are certain limits and items that are such of breach of the "moral aspect of hunting" that most might say "that is not a fairchase hunt", but when a man makes an effort to support and increase our numbers for the future by taking his kids out, pat his back and move on. We cannot judge each other's TASTE for
how we want to enjoy our sport, we can and should say "good job, if you have a chance, maybe you could come and join me for a hunt at..."

 

[huntducks]

Fritz

Thank you and well said

IMHO many of the purest have lost the light at the end of the tunnel and feel that there way is the only way, I also feel that we need to unite as hunters and not condem each other for there way of hunting, that's what give's the anti's any ammo, they have done it over gun control they have split the shotgun shooters, cowboy action shooters, the duck hunter's and smoke pole guy's away from the AW owners and left the AW guys out to dry.

It's happening right now over the marine closures off the coast the fly fisherman don't care, the freshwater guys don't care, the salmon steelhead guys don't care, and some of the divers don't care, but if all 10 million fisherman united in this state someone would listen, do the hunters in this state care I doubt it unless there a salt water fisherman.

This is all about uniting as sportsman & outdoor people getting everone on the same page, if that ever happened the antis would go away, but as long as they can divide everyone up it will never go away, I remember when the Federal AW ban 1993 was up for a vote and the Michigan deer hunters assoc. backed the bill in congress saying people don't need AW to hunt it was all over the news they where only thinking about there interest.

BillW & USAhunter I hope you can see what fritz & I are saying you may never ever want to hunt at BHR, but other may and in this free country it's your right to condem them, but as hunters we should unite and support there activity, take a page out of the democRATS play book do you ever see them condem one another.

Greg>huntducks

 

[Tominator]

Maybe this won't back fire...

To me, this whole thing is just like Ford v Chevy, Blondes v Brunettes, etc. Everyone has their own ideals and personal ethics in what is fair chase for them. Imposing your own standards on another hunter is useless and detremental. Bottom line is, as long as the activity is legal, what's wrong with someone pursuing it? You may not agree with it, so be it, just don't do it. If it involves exposing children or first time hunters or even hunters with little experience to the sport in a manner that may lead to them continuing in the sport then it's a good thing to me. I'm not from calif. nor do I have any desire to ever go there, but I do know this about the place, the opportunities to hunt there are very limited to alot of the residents. Case in point, I posted about dove hunting in the upland forum and got a response to the tune of "take your 7.5 acres with your nice house on it and your dove field just down the road and sell it and come out here and use the $200G to put a down payment on a .25 acre lot and a small home with neighbors 20 feet away and you can come drive 6 hours to hunt a crowded field with the rest of us because it's all we've got". Wow, that blew me away, I never realized it was that bad out there. In that situation I have no problem whatsoever with someone hunting these pigs. What's the difference between that and hatchery trout or put and take pheasants?
If you don't like it, good for you, but don't blast someone who does. Present your case in a respectful manner that makes your ideas of fair chase appealing in such a way that the beginning hunter might be drawn to them in the future as their own experience and experiences build. I love to bow hunt and think rifle hunting here in SC is too easy. Do I ridicule those who hunt with rifles? no (I still take a rifle when I want meat for the freezer). Do I tell them that bow hunting is the only real form of hunting? no. I build up bowhunting by telling them how exciting it is for me in hopes that my excitement may rub off on them at some point in time and lead them to try it.
Well, I'm tired of typing so that's it for me.
Tominator

 

[azhalvy]

FPSCABS - Thanks and well said!!!

 

[BLASTMASTER]

Y'know, my son's (9) been out with me after both bear and deer and unfortunately has not been present during any of my successes. He told me, after the last time we went out, "Hunting was fun and all, but if it's ok with you, I'd just rather stay home and play with my friends next time." I think y'all about got me convinced in taking him to BHR. I'm serious.

 

[azhalvy]

Blastmaster - You will have a great time! It is a great experience!! My 7 year old (and me) had a great time and can't stop talking about it!

Be sure to post your experience on the board when you get back!!

 

[bubba]

Fritz and Tominators last post about say it all concerning this subject.

To each his own, and whatever methods you choose...Good Hunting!

 

[fpscabs]

Blastmaster
Do it. Even if you go somewhere else. Let him see some success firsthand with you.
Sometimes my kids don't understand when I won't take them out to fish because I know the time will not be too much fun for them (weather, midday in summer low pressure system passing through - so not much fish will be caught) but when the conditions are better, even if we don't catch fish, we have fun because they are not cold, too hot, or really bored. A good positive experience is most important. The same goes with hunting.
With a hunt, something that is really physically challenging with no result, can sour the thrill of the hunt. My oldest really got the bug last year when I took him to Hunter's Safety class and bought him a lifetime sportsman's licence. He can't wait until he is 12 and can apply for a deer tag. More than once I have read stories of taking kids out to hunt or fish and most stress "make it fun and have some sort of success"

I read in one post here about letting kids find the reality of hunting in California and that kids should experience that feeling of "no success", because that is what many of us will experience. I say "NO'!

Start the fire of desire to hunt with good kindling, even use a highly combustable liquid to get a quick start. Let the flames burn bright, spreading their glow upon the child. Let them see how others shine in the flickering light, maybe adding to the fire. Later, as the fire gets low, teach that child that lighter fluid maybe good to start some flames, but we have to gather fuel to keep the fire going. Teach them how to cut wood, gather wood, where to gather wood, split wood, make a fuzz stick, how to bank a fire for later use, how to keep coals for morning, how to start a fire with one match without using the lighter fluid and that child should be warm for life. You will have a maturing child then who knows the pride of making fire without extra help.
Giving a child a wooden match or two and a piece of oak will only frustrate that child from the desire to learn how to start his or her own fire because he or she has never felt the flames.

 

[huntducks]

Truely guys how many of you know or have run into people that say I remember when I was younger and grew up in SD or??? and my grandfather or dad took me hunting all the time, then I moved to CA. and it was just to much of a hassel to hunt, there was little game so I gave it up. how do you think a young hunter feels, my youngest son is 25 and I would rather watch him shoot his and my limit then me fire a shot.

 

[m57jager]

I just have to say a couple things. I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Bill W 100%. People are saying he came off strong. No he didn't. He's firm in his convictions, that's a good trait to have. He also made every attempt to point out that it was his opinion only and no offense is meant. Now, come on, how interesting would it be if we couldn't express how we feel on an issue. That is what a forum is. If he was slamming people, calling names, and being down right rude then I'd understand. This was not the case. It was done with respect and politeness. The truly unfortunate thing about this whole thread is the fact that Azhalvy just wanted to share his success and that special time he had with us and it turned into an ethics debate. A little cloud over a moment he'll never forget. Thats ok though, because when you get down to it who really cares what others think if was good for you. now that you took game with your son, take him to the next level and teach him about the wild and how it works out there. I guarantee you the learning process will help in building character and you'll have many more moments that you'll remember. It will be that much sweeter when you do harvest game on a public land hunt with your boy after he puts together the pieces to take a big game animal. Even if it takes a few years, trust me when it finally happens it will all be worth it. That being said, good luck with future endeavors.

 

[BOHNTR]

I usually don't get involved in these types of topics because they tend to get harsh and someone always gets their feelings hurt. I think it's great that folks are out hunting and continuing the tradition, BUT I'm going to be frank here! The Big Horn Canyon Ranch is a joke and in my opinion NOT hunting! I went there once and refused to "hunt" a pig (with an auction ear tag) that followed me around looking for food. I literally had to chase it away several times. After I left the ranch, I learned the owner buys these animals at a farm auction and lets them go every week to replenish the amount of game killed.

This is a familiar incident that occurs here. You be judge. If this is something you enjoy, then more power to you and have fun. I'll hunt elsewhere. Just my .02 worth and that's not much.

BOHNTR )))------------->