- Thread starter ToddP
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BigDog
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No Todd, they are not the same. The Muleys are much larger generally, have the large "Mule" ears and have somewhat different markings.
One is a subspecies of the other. I have heard it both ways.
The Muleys are mainly on the eastern border of the state. And the blacktail inhabit the rest of the state.
One is a subspecies of the other. I have heard it both ways.
The Muleys are mainly on the eastern border of the state. And the blacktail inhabit the rest of the state.
hunthog
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hunthog
Scott Thornley
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Sorry, but Blacktails are definitely not muleys, any more than Whitetails are Blacktails.
First came the Whitetail, which at one time populated all of North America. The deer became isolated ( Glaciation?) on the West Coast and evolved to become Blacktails. Note the similarities between the rack of a pure Columbian Blacktail and the Whitetail. Recent genetic evidence also indicates that Muleys are descended from Blacktails. This is contrary to earlier beliefs that Muleys were the ancestors of Blacktails.
Regards,
Scott
First came the Whitetail, which at one time populated all of North America. The deer became isolated ( Glaciation?) on the West Coast and evolved to become Blacktails. Note the similarities between the rack of a pure Columbian Blacktail and the Whitetail. Recent genetic evidence also indicates that Muleys are descended from Blacktails. This is contrary to earlier beliefs that Muleys were the ancestors of Blacktails.
Regards,
Scott
There used to be a thought that Blacktails were a sub spieces of the Muledeer, however due to recent scientific studies, it has been proven by DNA that the Muledeer is a Cross breed between the B-Tail and W-Tail thousands of years ago. It has been a while since I have seen the report on line, but I will try and find it, and post it.
Here it is:
The Columbian Blacktail Deer
...For many years the Columbian Blacktail Deer (A.K.A Columbia Blacktail) has been considered a subspecies of the Mule deer, however recent DNA testing has proven this not to be the case. In Valerius Geist's informative book Mule Deer Country he explains that by testing the mitochondrial DNA (the mothers DNA ) of the three species (blacktail, whitetail and mule deer), researchers have now determined that it was the mating of Whitetail does and Blacktail buck's that gave rise to the Mule deer and not the opposite as was once suspected.
...It is now believed that millions of years ago the Whitetail deer expanded its range down the east coast of the United States, across Mexico, and then back up the West coast where it eventually evolved into the Blacktail Deer. This helps to explain the strong resemblance in appearance and psychological characteristics between the two. Thousands of years later as the recently evolved Blacktail's range spread eastward and the Whitetail's range again expanded westward, the two deer again met. At this point the Blacktail bucks displaced the Whitetail bucks and bred the Whitetail does. Researches now believe that it is this hybridization that produced what is now know as the Muledeer.
Here it is:
The Columbian Blacktail Deer
...For many years the Columbian Blacktail Deer (A.K.A Columbia Blacktail) has been considered a subspecies of the Mule deer, however recent DNA testing has proven this not to be the case. In Valerius Geist's informative book Mule Deer Country he explains that by testing the mitochondrial DNA (the mothers DNA ) of the three species (blacktail, whitetail and mule deer), researchers have now determined that it was the mating of Whitetail does and Blacktail buck's that gave rise to the Mule deer and not the opposite as was once suspected.
...It is now believed that millions of years ago the Whitetail deer expanded its range down the east coast of the United States, across Mexico, and then back up the West coast where it eventually evolved into the Blacktail Deer. This helps to explain the strong resemblance in appearance and psychological characteristics between the two. Thousands of years later as the recently evolved Blacktail's range spread eastward and the Whitetail's range again expanded westward, the two deer again met. At this point the Blacktail bucks displaced the Whitetail bucks and bred the Whitetail does. Researches now believe that it is this hybridization that produced what is now know as the Muledeer.
Mattk53
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Sorry, but Blacktails are definitely not muleys, any more than Whitetails are Blacktails.
First came the Whitetail, which at one time populated all of North America. The deer became isolated ( Glaciation?) on the West Coast and evolved to become Blacktails. Note the similarities between the rack of a pure Columbian Blacktail and the Whitetail. Recent genetic evidence also indicates that Muleys are descended from Blacktails. This is contrary to earlier beliefs that Muleys were the ancestors of Blacktails.
Regards,
Scott
Scott,
Blacktail racks look nothing like whitetail racks, in fact they look like a small mulie rack. They have the two forks, absence of the "big" brow tines (they sometimes have small eye guards). I live right on the coast and we are 200 miles from the nearest Mule deer and the deer around here is as "pure" as you get. The rest of your statement is correct, but the antler argument is a little off.
Matt
First came the Whitetail, which at one time populated all of North America. The deer became isolated ( Glaciation?) on the West Coast and evolved to become Blacktails. Note the similarities between the rack of a pure Columbian Blacktail and the Whitetail. Recent genetic evidence also indicates that Muleys are descended from Blacktails. This is contrary to earlier beliefs that Muleys were the ancestors of Blacktails.
Regards,
Scott
Scott,
Blacktail racks look nothing like whitetail racks, in fact they look like a small mulie rack. They have the two forks, absence of the "big" brow tines (they sometimes have small eye guards). I live right on the coast and we are 200 miles from the nearest Mule deer and the deer around here is as "pure" as you get. The rest of your statement is correct, but the antler argument is a little off.
Matt
Orygun
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I can see where Scott is coming from with the antler bit. Most of our blacktail do have the classic "Y" branching that muleys have. I do see form tim to time some tight rounded racks of 3 pts that even though the third tine is branching off one of the forks, it is large enough and low enough on the fork to appear that is coming off the main tine, ala a whitetail.
We have the Columbian Whitetail up here which is the same size if not smaller than the blacktail. They sometimes require a lot of inspection to tell the difference. Some of the does around my place have fluffy tails, not on the scale of a whitetail, but when they take off and are flagging, they look very similar. The antler simlarities cease when the bucks really mature.
We have the Columbian Whitetail up here which is the same size if not smaller than the blacktail. They sometimes require a lot of inspection to tell the difference. Some of the does around my place have fluffy tails, not on the scale of a whitetail, but when they take off and are flagging, they look very similar. The antler simlarities cease when the bucks really mature.
They say a picture is worth a thousand words and for that reason I've included a few photographs of blacktails I have taken, as well as some others off my site.
I live only 25 miles from the Pacific in Mendocino County, CA, (pure Columbian blacktail country) and here the typical whitetail configuration is very common among blacktails. You won't see many bucks with that shape in anything other than 3 points, (not counting eyeguards) but in 3 points it is not unusual. I like Matt see a lot of similarities in whitetail and blacktail, much more than I see in blacktails and muledeer. For example the facial markings of the two is nearly identical, not to mention their brush loving tendencies.
With horn configuration being controlled mostly by genetics is seems very likely that rack shape would change from area to area. If you want more proof go to BlacktailCountry.com and look at the photos. You will see that the typical whitetail configuration can be found on blacktails all up and down the west coast.
Dan BTC
Blacktail photos
I live only 25 miles from the Pacific in Mendocino County, CA, (pure Columbian blacktail country) and here the typical whitetail configuration is very common among blacktails. You won't see many bucks with that shape in anything other than 3 points, (not counting eyeguards) but in 3 points it is not unusual. I like Matt see a lot of similarities in whitetail and blacktail, much more than I see in blacktails and muledeer. For example the facial markings of the two is nearly identical, not to mention their brush loving tendencies.
With horn configuration being controlled mostly by genetics is seems very likely that rack shape would change from area to area. If you want more proof go to BlacktailCountry.com and look at the photos. You will see that the typical whitetail configuration can be found on blacktails all up and down the west coast.
Dan BTC
Blacktail photos
Mattk53
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Ok, I see what you are talking about with the three pointers, but I have two questions/statements.
1. What do mule deer three pointers look like? Do they have the same whitetail like main beams like the ones shown in the pictures?
2. When a blacktail goes to a four pointer they look exactly like the mule deer four pointer not a whitetail ten pointer (Eastern style).
Also, I know one of the guys in the pictures! The guy in the bottom left picture with the coyboy hat on. I coached his son in football acouple of years ago.
Matt
1. What do mule deer three pointers look like? Do they have the same whitetail like main beams like the ones shown in the pictures?
2. When a blacktail goes to a four pointer they look exactly like the mule deer four pointer not a whitetail ten pointer (Eastern style).
Also, I know one of the guys in the pictures! The guy in the bottom left picture with the coyboy hat on. I coached his son in football acouple of years ago.
Matt
Matt,
Sometimes blacktail stay three points for their entire lives. I have seen a lot of big heavy horned 3x3 that never grow a fourth point. I have also seen a lot of big forks that will never be any thing but forks. Like wise I have also seen quite a few muledeer with a racks that look very whitetailish. I have one on my wall. It's a 31 inch wide muley from Northeastern, CA. All four tines on one side grow off of the main beam, with the back one being over 17 inches long. The other side is a beautiful long tined three point. Nearly everyone mistakes it for a whitetail. I have also killed others with the same configuration. It is probably not the norm but it does happen.
Your absolutely right when you say that when a blacktail turns to a four point it usually looks just like a muledeer, but I have seen them with three tines coming off of the main beam.
I wasn't disagreeing with your post. I just wanted to point out that sometimes, in my opinion, blacktail do look very similar to their ancestor the whitetails. As I said before this may not hold true in all areas, but it does in some.
Wow, What are the odds of you knowing the person pictured in one of the photos I included. It's a small world. You must not live to far from me.
Dan
Sometimes blacktail stay three points for their entire lives. I have seen a lot of big heavy horned 3x3 that never grow a fourth point. I have also seen a lot of big forks that will never be any thing but forks. Like wise I have also seen quite a few muledeer with a racks that look very whitetailish. I have one on my wall. It's a 31 inch wide muley from Northeastern, CA. All four tines on one side grow off of the main beam, with the back one being over 17 inches long. The other side is a beautiful long tined three point. Nearly everyone mistakes it for a whitetail. I have also killed others with the same configuration. It is probably not the norm but it does happen.
Your absolutely right when you say that when a blacktail turns to a four point it usually looks just like a muledeer, but I have seen them with three tines coming off of the main beam.
I wasn't disagreeing with your post. I just wanted to point out that sometimes, in my opinion, blacktail do look very similar to their ancestor the whitetails. As I said before this may not hold true in all areas, but it does in some.
Wow, What are the odds of you knowing the person pictured in one of the photos I included. It's a small world. You must not live to far from me.
Dan
Most 3-point muleys look like whitetails cause most of the time all 3 points are coming off of the mainbeam, but I have seen and I have found several sheds that the third point comes off of the G-2. It's just more common for them to come off of the mainbeam.
I have also found a 4-point muley shed that had all points comming off of the mainbeam.
I have also found a 4-point muley shed that had all points comming off of the mainbeam.
Brian S
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Is there any difference between a Sitka Blacktail and the Columbian. I am not doubting the genetic theory and have really never had an opinion on what came first. I think there are stronger similarities between the backtail and the mule compared to the Btail and the Wtail. Both stot when alarmed, both have bifurcated antlers(when 4x4) and small browtines. They both are not nearly as vocal and territorial as a whitetail. Down here in so.Cal we have the California mule deer sub species and its always good for an argument whether you buck has more muley traits or more Blacktail traits. All three deer have enough differences to be called a separate species and I think we're very lucky to such a variety of deer out west.
Brian
Brian
