Copper bullet report. Results on 5 pigs and 2 deer.

[gundogtrainer]

By the wa a 300 weatherby under 100 yards will turn a pair of lungs into jelly with any bullet, animals that cant breath dont run far.

 

[radioleo]

Hello JHO Brothers,

I have enjoyed the copper vs lead bullet discussion, and most of the discussion has been on the Barnes TSX copper bullets

Has anyone used the Nosler E-Tip bullet yet ?

I have heard GREAT results from this bullet and the grouping at 100 yards are much better then the Barnes TSX bullets.

Does anyone have any input for the Nosler E-Tip ?

I am going to use this shell on hogs 180 gr. 30-06

Thanks

radioleo

 

[Speckmisser]

Leo, I'm currently using the ETips in my 30-06, and I really like them so far. I've shot a blackbuck doe in TX, a few hogs, and a fallow deer with them so far, and I've been quite pleased by the performance.

Keep in mind that I like spine and neck shots, but I've taken heart/lung shots too with good results.

I did a write-up based on my results with various lead-free ammo a while back. You can read it here if you're inclined: http://californiahuntingtoday.com/hogblog/...s-i-have-known/

In short, the ETips seem to do slightly more tissue damage than the Barnes bullets. My Savage 30-06 really likes them, accuracy-wise.

And they're legal in the Condor Zone....

I have a couple of boxes of Barnes bullets to load for the -06, but they've been sitting there waiting for me to get done with the ETips. At this point, I may not switch.

 

[CAGWP]

My test's on two deer in the A Zone also were negative. I was not there for a third test but my grandpa shot a very small forky with his 280 loaded with barnes tipped x bullet right in the shoulder bone and the little buck ran off 100+ yards before it died. The shoulder was blown up and there was no exit. This was under 200 yards on a small deer. The second buck that was shot was mine and was hit in the back leg at about 150 yards, it passed right through with no expansion. I think if I was shooting lead it would of broke the back leg due to the proximedy to the bone. The second shot was when the buck was running down hill away from me, it went through the spine and lodged into the oposing shoulder. I recoverd the bullet and it was only flowerd into 3 shrade's and only lost around.03 of its grained weight, probly the plastic ballistic tip weight. This buck went down after the second shot. this buck was shot with a 270 130 gr hand load with tipped x bullet. The next buck shot was my wifes buck with her 264 win mag loaded with 130gr tsx barnes bullet hand load. The first shot was from 200 yards and was through the high shoulder and exited through the neck. The buck lundged forword and continued over a ridge. We walked up over the ridge and found the buck trying to exit upon our arrival. My wife shot it again directly through both lungs (high lung shot near spin) withen 50 yards. I saw the dust come off of the buck. The buck continued up hill at a run until I shot it in the neck with my 270 loaded with 130 gr tipped x bullets. I believe that the bullets are not transfering enough energy into these deer to knock them down when they are shot. They just dont expand enough to transfer energy into small animals. I will not use these bullets when I go out of state for elk or any other game.

CDFG wake up. The lead ban is causing hunters to loose game and cause animals undue suffering before they die. Isnt the waste of game illegal? I believe that most hunters want to be responsable, using this ammo on blacktails is not fair to the game we pursue. Also what is the purpose of using this ammo to protect a bird that scientist are now saying has no chance of surviving in the wild? They are now saying that the condor is going to require millions of more dollars and will only be a zoo animal in the wild, meaning that it is going to require constant attention just to maintain in the outdoors, feeding, medical, and security to protect them from preditors.

 

[hatchet1]

no surprise there brother,they are crap!

unfortunetly the time to speak up has come and gone and we
are now stuck with this tool that duz nothing but feed the poor bird,my only advise to you and anybody else dealing with
the condor act,is to shoot for the spine or neck, as any other trauma will be just that ,trauma!once again,what a shame

i believe an animal deserves a quick and humane death, you aint gonna get it with the barneys

nice bucks by the way

 

[Backcountry]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (myfriendis410 @ Sep 9 2008, 07:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Double the diameter and it's several times the surface area.[/b]

Frontal cross-section increases proportionally to the square of the radius.

 

[Speckmisser]

I'm just gonna put this out there as a perspective point... not to challenge anyone, nor am I defending lead ammo or the ban, but...

When you post statements like:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

CDFG wake up. The lead ban is causing hunters to loose game and cause animals undue suffering before they die. Isnt the waste of game illegal? I believe that most hunters want to be responsable, using this ammo on blacktails is not fair to the game we pursue.[/b]

That would be a valid argument, except for the fact that every single complaint I've seen so far about this copper ammo has been made by people standing over dead game.

I'm not saying hunters aren't losing animals, and maybe it's even due to the use of non-lead ammo. But it's hard to provide a sound counter-argument when the evidence of success is right there in your photos.

Oh, and by the way... CDFG had nothing to do with the ban. As I recall, their recommendation was to encourage voluntary adoption of non-lead ammo while further study was conducted on the condor/lead ammo relationship. The bureaucrats in the Fish and Game Commission approved the ban anyway, and it was passed into law in the State legislature. If you're gonna scream at someone over this (and if you feel strongly, you definitely should), at least scream at the right people.

 

[ltdann]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Speckmisser @ Sep 25 2008, 07:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

That would be a valid argument, except for the fact that every single complaint I've seen so far about this copper ammo has been made by people standing over dead game.

I'm not saying hunters aren't losing animals, and maybe it's even due to the use of non-lead ammo. But it's hard to provide a sound counter-argument when the evidence of success is right there in your photos.[/b]

Speck,

I agree with you up to a point, yes the copper stuff will kill game. What's disappointing to many, myself included, is that the ammo doesn't do it effectively. Many are used to DRT kills or massive knockdown followed by short tracking. Maybe we are spoiled that way, but the fact is, many animals don't die quickly, require follow up shots or tracking.

I've made perfect shots at close range where my experience has led me to expect the deer be slammed to the ground instantly, only to watch in amazement as they run off. If the shot is less than the perfect heart/lung combo, tracking will be required.

As hunters, we should perfect this skill as a matter of course. The fact is, its a tough skill to master, even tougher when the blood trail is small. Small because the wound channel is small and the exit wound is the same size as the entrance wound.

My expierence with Barnes TTSX 12 ga slugs was disappointing. Did they work? Yes, but the evidence on the animals suggest little or no expansion, even at extended range when you'd expect lower velocity to work in your favor.

The ammo needs work. We're stuck with it for the time being, at least until 2012. Regardless of the results of condor lead testing, we won't get lead back without a massive concerted effort.

 

[Rampage1]

My expierence wtih copper bullets is limited but I have been impressed so far. I've killed 1 pig and 1 buck with them and neither moved more than three feet, great expansion on both. Here is a pic of the buck I killed. He was quartering towards me. The pen is the entrance whole, the exit wound is obvious.

 

[ltdann]

Rifle, shot gun, what bullet, caliber , weight? what distance?

 

[Speckmisser]

Dan, I've made my arguments about copper already,and like I said above, this isn't intended to argue with anyone else's experience.

But if someone were trying to make a point to someone who could make a difference, then claiming that copper will cause lost animals while every report shows recovered animals is kinda contradictory, isn't it? I have yet to read about a lost animal on here, in all the reports slamming the ammo.

Try to imagine this from a juror's perspective... remove your own bias as much as possible and consider the arguments from a neutral perspective.

If someone wanted to make a "case" about copper, then they'll need more than the hypothesis. There needs to be proof.

 

[Hitechhunter]

We probably have nearly 100 first hand reports here so far at JHO of Barnes bullet performance (ain't the Internet great!). Last I checked, it was running about 60/40.

Although far from being a scientific study, this does represent a body of empirical data which strongly suggests the bullets "under perform" in many cases. Not all cases, mind you, but enough cases to warrant being wise and taking notice.

How many people have shot at game, searched, found no blood, and assumed they missed? Would they go on here bragging about their great hunting experience? Most won't. Absence of data doesn't mean the data don't exist.

How many of those "misses" where actually fatal lung shots where the animal took off and died an hour later and a quarter mile away in the thick nasties? Absence of these reports here does not indicate no animals have been lost.

I double-lunged a pig at 100 yards broadside last year, perfect shot that wastes no meat. It took off like it wasn't hit, with no blood trail. After searching a while, I began to doubt my shot. I kept searching anyway. I stumbled upon the pig maybe 30 minutes later. It was laying down and still breathing hard with a pencil sized hole through both lungs! I had to shoot it in the neck to put it out of it's misery. I HATE that! I want a quick, clean kill. I almost didn't see the pig, it was a close call.

If we can get our experiences and reports heard, perhaps Barnes can spend more time back in engineering improving the design, instead of pushing their marketing story about how great they are.

I believed their marketing and switched to them a few years prior to the ban. I am very disappointed, to say the least. IMHO, they are not great, they suck!

 

[Rampage1]

ltdan,
30/06, 180gr barnes tsx, 100 yards quartering towards me. I shot the pig with the same load, broadside at 85.

 

[ltdann]

Folks,

I'm not saying I can't work with this stuff, I can. After all the hype about Barnes, maybe my expectations were too high. I'm a huge fan of Nosler Partitions, having used them in my 30-06 and 12 ga. I've taken deer with both and never been disappointed or tracked.

This year, my deer were taken with 12 ga only and the results were less favorable than expected.

Hey, we all have firearms that prefer a certain lbrand/oad/bullet combo. We spend incredible amounts of time and money to find the "magic" bullet that fits us, the game and the weapon. Once we find it, we don't like to change.

I remember when I was working up the 30-06 back in the early 90's, I went thru Hornaday, nosler, sierra, lapua and every style and variation in between.

With the condor-ridley act, we basically have two choices, Barnes or E-tip.

Just two. If it doesn't work for you, what do you do?

 

[Hitechhunter]

Have we had any reports of poor performance with the E-Tip's, or has it all been Barnes? Maybe the ETip's are the way to go?

 

[Mr. Luckypants]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hitechhunter @ Sep 25 2008, 10:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Have we had any reports of poor performance with the E-Tip's, or has it all been Barnes? Maybe the ETip's are the way to go?[/b]

Please define poor performance?

 

[Hitechhunter]

Reports of poor performance can be summarized as: Small exit wound with little to no blood trail, wounded animal runs off like it's unhurt. Follow-up shots often required.

 

[gundogtrainer]

I have used both nosler and barns bullets for years and have been happy with both. The law banning lead bullet in the condor range sucks and those who dont like copper arn't going to change their opinion any time soon, but keep one thing in mind when you make a post that animals are suffering as a result you are fueling the anti hunters argument to ban all hunting in the condor zone.

 

[ltdann]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rampage1 @ Sep 25 2008, 10:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

ltdan,
30/06, 180gr barnes tsx, 100 yards quartering towards me. I shot the pig with the same load, broadside at 85.[/b]

So you had a positive experience? I didn't fire the -06 this year so I limited my comments to 12ga.

Well, maybe I just need some more field time and I'll be happier. It just didn't live up to my expectations. It certainly didn't cause as much meat loss as the noslers.

 

[Hitechhunter]

The truth is the truth, I'm not going to hide it, and the ban is here. Let's put the pressure on Barnes and others to produce a product that works 98+% of the time. Admit there is a problem, and get to work fixing it.