Crossbows are not archery!

[towerrat164]

I would like to put forth my two cents worth of oppinion regarding crossbows. In what stretch of imagination can you compare a shoulder held, vertical plane, pre-drawn string weapon to a true bow?
Bows have to be drawn and for the most part aimed in a vertical or nearly vertical position; I suppose you could turn a crossbow sideways and fire it and I have seen trick shots of bows in a horizontal position. Crossbows are not archery period. Allowing them in a archery season is not something I wish to happen. I support a crossbow season seperate from archery such as most states offer a muzzleloader season seperate from firearms season. As I said this is my two cents worth.

shoot straight, aim well,
and tell tall tales to
good friends.

 

[Spud]

I agree that there is no comparison. Here in NC you have to be disabled to hunt with one. I believe they would be fine during muzzleloader or rifle season, but not bow season.

 

[hickstick]

not to take up issue with you (I agree on the crossbow thing) but my buds and I shoot nearly horizontal shots with our longbows all the time. espcially in kneeling situations.


I would say that anything you can cock, load and leave until the trigger is squeesed isn't a bow. its a gun. most guys on stickbow leatherwall call'em CROSSGUNS.

 

[recurveshooter]

my feeling is crossbows arn't bows and (this will do it , inline muzzle loaders arn't muzzleloaders just single shot rifles )----- herb

 

[Passthru]

Not to start an arguement here,but what you are saying is that those guys who are disabled and have no choice but to hunt with a crossbow are not bow hunters? im thinking this subject has been poored over before,and we have GOOD folks here that use a crossbow because they have no other way to bow hunt and this subject could be a hurtfull one.
My opinion is that if your able to draw a bow thats what you should be useing,if not then a crossbow is fine. Lets face it,the only reason everyone is down on the crossbow is because they feel that if it is legal there will be a bunch of people out there hunting that would not normally be there if they had to use a regular bow,and im sure that your thinking would be 100% correct.

 

[recurveshooter]

Disabled is another ball of wax .they should be able to hunt anyway they can if that means a 30/06 out a car window no problem but for healthy person to use a cross bow should be in firearm season .any crossbow with a scope can take out a golf ball at 50 yds ,that to me is what range a muzzle loader should have 50 to 75yds .not 150 to 200, shoot my 30/30 isn't much good over 100yds .----- herb

 

[MrRee]

I am with Passthru on this.

I am 62 and this year my brusidus would cause my shoulder to give out when I tried to hold my bow back very long. I want the hunt and am considering a crossbow for next year. It may not be quite as good as with my compound, but I will get to hunt under the thick foilage conditions of bow season.

I think the crossbow is a better choice than a lighter bow where I wound one, but didnt have the penatration to bring it down.

My 2 cents

 

[prohunter]

Have you guys ever shot a crossbow? I had one back about 8-10 years ago. They are not what you think. My opinion it was a piece of junk! It was of good quality (PSE), but just wasn't what I thought it was. The compound bows of today are far better than any crossbow. The compound bow is faster, lighter, more acurate, & easier to shoot. The crossbow is not very easy to load. I have very limited use of my left hand (got shot with a gun). I had to switch from shooting right to left hand. It was difficult at first, but I got it at the end. I thought maybe it would be easier with a crossbow. I was wrong. IMO: I don't care if crossbows are allowed to hunt with bows. I know my combound bow is far better

 

[marmot]

Cross Bows are one of the purest forms of archery. They have great historic significance. They are much closer to true archery than compounds bows.

I hunt and take big game regularly with all types of weapons, including the cross bow.

I have never heard a valid argument against allowing cross bows during regular archery season.

My Crossbow is a PSE, which is a high quality, accurate and dependable weapon that has searved me well for many years.

 

[deerguide]

I don't shoot a crossbow...yet. However, from what I know, a modern compound bow shoots just as well as a compound bow. In fact, from the data I've seen, the compound is both faster and shoots flatter than the crossbow. To say that a crossbow is more accurate or more lethal than the compound is just not so. I'd hate to have to live on the difference.
What is different, is that the crossbow is already drawn, which is perhaps a small advantage.

Of course, this is, the traditional bow forum. I'm sure that some feel that the compound should be in the same category as the cross gun. Me, I say if you are partial to a cross bow, a compound bow, or are a traditionalist, then fine. That is your personal choice and I can and do respect that. Respect, however, works both ways.

We need to learn to live with each other and respect each and not try to impose our personal beliefs on one another every time there is a difference of opinion. There is still room enough, I believe, for all of us to live together in harmony.

If I've offended anyone with this view, then I truly am sorry for that is not my desire.



Walt Williams a.k.a. deerguide

 

[TNDEERHUNTER]

I think sometimes it is good to discuss issues like this so that everyone can see others side of the story. When I first saw this post I thought that it might be a problem but once again the wonderful folks here on JHP have discussed a very touchy subject with respect and maturity. For this I salute all of you.

Now for the topic at hand. I personally don't use a crossbow for hunting,but my father does. He is 68 years old with arthritis. He can't pull a bow back anymore so a croossbow is the only way he can hunt during bow season. Here in TN you have to get a special permit to hunt with a crossbow. I set up his crossbow and I am more accurate at 30 yds with my compound bow than with his crossbow. There are a few major differences. 1.) It is already drawn back. 2.) The crossbow is heavier than a compound bow. 3.) It is not as fast as my compound bow.4.) It has a scope on it. These are the only differences I can see. For my father if it wasn't for the crossbow he couldn't hunt during bow season and for a man that has hunted all his life it would be devistating. I personally would not hunt with a crossbow during bow season but it does have a place in our hunting community.Once again this is the traditional forum and I would rather hunt with my longbow or recurve than any other weapon I have.

 

[LBR]

I've just been lurking here for a while, but decided to chime in on this post. I will say first that I don't have much experience with crossbows, but I have shot them--several years ago I shot a few bolts through one, and just recently. In my limited experience, they are not the killing machines most folks seem to think they are. I am a fairly good shot with a handgun, rifle, and longbow (used to be pretty decent with a compound also, but has been a while), and if I hit a golf ball at 50 yds with a crossbow it would be pure luck. I doubt I could consistently hit a basketball at 50 yds with one. These things are heavy, bulky, and noisy--I'd much rather hunt with my longbow--shooting targets was fun, but I would hate to have to carry one of those things through the woods. In my opininon, crossbows are a handicap compared to compounds as far as speed and cast are concerned. That being said........

Are they bows? Not in my opinion. Some ancient crossbows were designed to hurl rocks--would that make them slingshots? They are predicessors more to firearms than to archery--the projectile doesn't classify the weapon, in my opinion. If it did, then these new arrow guns that are on the market (quite literally rifles that fire arrows) would be considered bows. Ancient weapons, yes. Bows, no. I don't consider the atlatl or blowgun archery equipment either, although they have also been around for a long time, and both use a dart/arrow/projectile.

Where do they belong in hunting season? Danged if I know. I don't have a problem with those who are truly disabled using them during archery season. They are closer to bows than rifles as far as their killing potential, and I doubt those who are disabled will be a threat to the herd anyway--the ones I know just want a chance to enjoy the season for a few hunts before the guns start. As far as what's fair and what isn't, there is no way to make it right for everyone. As far as that goes, I don't think it's fair that I have to pay more than a resident to hunt certain game, even on government land. Heck, it's not fair that I have to travel to even get to hunt that game. It's not fair that some people have access to much better land than I do..........and on and on.

My opinion, in a nutshell, is this. Truely disabled (confirmed by no less than 3 docs), allowed to use them during bow season. Anyone allowed to use them during primitive weapons season (we have a bow season and a primitive weapons season in MS) and/or gun season.

Chad

 

[PowDuck]

Hey, Chad. Welcome to Jesse's as a contributor. Figured you were out there somewhere. I appreciate your comments and look forward to more of them.

Thank you all for the civil discussion here on this topic. It has the makings of a hot one but that's just not really what I would expect from the people here.

Thanks again, Guys. Good discussion.

 

[ArkansasElkHunter]

Man, why do we really care what someone else hunts with. Ask yourself that and why you think it. I don't think the crossbow hunters are going to kill all our deer, breath all our air, or take all our women.

As for me I have a Horton Hunter that I'd put up against anything as far as killing accuracy. True it's heavy, awkward, and loud, but deadly accurate. I've hunted with it and still do sometimes. It's my jump and shoot bow and the only thing any hunter has a chance with in some of the thickets I like to push this time of year. More importantly it's the only legal bow my non-handicapped 9 yr old can hunt with me with. That alone make it priceless. (BTW at 40 yds he will shoot quarter sized groups every time - of course he's awesome!!!)

I build my own longbows but I don't throw rocks at those who prefer laminated limbs backed with fiberglass. I build my own laminated recurves but never had a problem with anyone needing cables, cams, sights and a trigger release (WOW add a stock and you've got a crossbow)

When I hunt for a trophy (my true love because there no pressure till you see a big one - catch and release kind of for the small bucks), I prefer my Q2 over anything. It's the most I can get and still stay eligible for the P&Y. If I want to just get some meat, I'll carry my longbow, Kill a deer with a bow you made yourself if you want a rush. And if my son is going I'll carry that boat anchor, watching you child take his first deer is the best of all.

By being versatile I can get the most enjoyment for me out of my experience and isn't that why we are out there, for the enjoyment. Hunt, hunt more and encourage your friend who choose a weapon, you might not choose, to hunt as well. After all, it's us against the antis and the crossbow hunter is a whole lot more like you than they are. I think there is plenty of room for all of us.

 

[LBR]

" Man, why do we really care what someone else hunts with. Ask yourself that and why you think it. "

There are reasons behind the different seasons, and the restrictions within them. If not, there just as well be a "hunting season" and use what you want. I have no problem with people using different (legal) weapons that are within the legal seasons, but on the other hand I don't want to see rifles allowed in the archery season. To me, hunting is about the challenge, not the kill. That is why I use a longbow all season. I was under the impression that the archery/primitive weapons seasons were developed with that in mind also--for folks looking for a challenge. If I was after meat, I'd use a rifle. Don't get me wrong, I love the meat, but we get plenty of it every year--we have neighbors that gun hunt and take way more than they can use, so we have several given to us.

As for your son, he should be competeing on a national level. Quarter sized groups at 40 yds would be amazing for a 9 year old even with a rifle. Heck, I don't know if I could keep my groups with a scoped rifle under an inch at 40 yds (a quarter is 15/16"). Hopefully my son will be pulling enough weight on his bow to start hunting deer with me by the time he is 12 (he will be 8 in March). I don't think we have an age restriction in MS (I will have to check before we go though to be sure). He is a great shot, but not yet able to pull the poundage for deer on his recurve. We have been out for rabbits, but no shots yet. If he is mature enough and wants to, I will take him gun hunting before then, but he will have to earn his stripes before he goes during bow season.

There is plenty of room for us all, as long as we all respect each other's seasons. There is room for all kinds of sports, but you won't see a softball used in a baseball game

, even though they are very similar and some players might benefit from it. You don't see folks playing soccer and football on the same field at the same time either. That is my view on using weapons other than a bow during bow season.

Chad

 

[towerrat164]

Thank you everyone for your input. I am very grateful we have used this subject for level headed debate and kept the political mudslinging out of it. Chad makes a very good description when he stated "You don't see folks playing soccer and football on the same field at the same time either". When archery season was first allowed in Michigan it was the stick bows with wooden arrows that won the right for their own season. From what I have read in the past it was lobbied that a bow did not produce enough killing power to bring game down in a humane manner. Archers of the time demonstrated the penetrating power of a bow using armor piercing arrows to punch through a sheet of boiler plate! The point is bowhunters had to go to great extremes in my state to be accepted and were rewarded with an archery only season. Now I feel that our human nature of finding the easiest method of getting the prize has begun to dilute the definitions of what is what; an example other than the traditional bow and crossbow is the muzzleloader. Todays modern muzzleloader is as far from the traditional concussion and flint lock as anything can be. In Michigan muzzleloader hunters were granted a season just for their weapon after the modern firearm season, but some hunters realized there was a loop hole in the state's game laws that allowed for muzzleloaders to be used in the shotgun only zones during the modern firearm season. This loop hole has contributed to the developement of muzzleloaders capable of firing smokeless ammunition and reaching ranges beyond what a shotgun normally achieved. Of course shotguns have extended their capabilities to the point some hunters are shouldering a small howitzer. It is not the weapon I do not agree with, it is the point that there are hunters who want to use crossbows during the bow season just to take the easier road. I am all for allowing hunters with permanent physical restrictions to use a crossbow or simular device if said physical restriction does not allow those individuals to safely and correctly use archery equipment. How or who can determine the physical conditions is not something I can answer and I will not speculate on that subject. My son is fast approaching the age when he can legally hunt game in Michigan and I like many other fathers look forward to the day my children fill their first hunting tag, I just want them to have a choice of what to enjoy to take that game. Lets keep the archery season for bow hunting and create a crossbow season outside of the archery time frame; that is what I propose.
SSgt Vern Pratt
shoot straight, aim well,
and tell tall tales to
good friends.

 

[ArkansasElkHunter]

I can certainly see your views and even shared your passion regarding this issue 15 years ago. That’s when Arkansas first opened it's archery season to crossbows. I’m sure I made some of these same analogies as I was a staunch opponent . Before that I made fun of the cams and fancy sights on compounds. I guess I’ve mellowed out some since then, now I don’t get bothered at all and I even own one.

Crossbows accounted for 4.8% of the deer killed in Arkansas in the 98-99 season and 2.9% in 2000 and 1.23% in 2001. A base average of 3% for the past 7 or 8 years and it has leveled off there. Other archery accounts for about 4% of the total kill. For me, I don’t think it really affects me negatively in any way. Sure there would be three more deer per hundred out there, and at a healthy population of 20 deer/ sq mile, I’m likely to see 1 less deer on a week long hunt, but I really cant argue that that decreases my chances for sucess at all.

I guess we could shorten the Archery season and slip in a Crossbow season in there somewhere, but I don’t think that is necessary. I certainly wouldn’t want to give up anything either.

I don’t do rock climbing, I’m afraid of heights. That’s just a little too challenging for me. Does that mean I’ve got no right to be on top of the mountain? For those who choose Dacron strings over flax, Fiberglass laminates instead of natures bow wood, and choose to use steel for their broadheads instead of flint, I hold in no contempt. Nor would I propose they take up my particular challenge. As one day I’ll take and process my first deer with nothing commercially made on me. Not even cotton underwear. (about all that stands between me and my life goal is getting my “squaw” to chew my buckskins – can’t get that garment quality I’m looking for in a homemade tan).

I would suggest to put the crossbow in league with the gun would certainly be more ludicrous than lumping it in with the Bows. At least unless your views of its performance and abilities are even close to being grounded in reality. At 35 to 40 yrds max, the only difference in the hunt is the draw. The other aspects of the hunt are the same. You still have to survive without detection in the deer’s inner sanctum and judging distance is judging distance no matter what you are shooting.

Did I say I really diddn’t care. Why am I still typing then? I guess I just like to present the other side, Oh heck, I just like a good debate. Kinda like wrestling with a pig in the mud: After a while you realize he likes it!. Either way to each his own and don’t let whatever it is spoil your fun.

 

[bodkin]

If all bowhunters take a stand against crossbows, then there is a move to
regulate technology this raises a thought. Wont compound users say its
the trad folks stabbing us in the back? We helped the crossbow
stand how come they want to regulate us now?. Its the perception not
the fact I see causing a rift in the future. While a good many compond
users may go along with new regs.It will all ways be "percieved" that it
was stick bow shooters that pushed for the new regs.Even if we are in
the minority.

 

[hickstick]

here in MA, there is no rifle hunting for deer due to land area v. human population density. they have three seasons now, archery, shotgun, 'primitive firearms' (put it in quotes cause they recently opened it to modern inline/scoped, and permitted ingnition systems to be closed from the environments.)

We have it lucky I guess, cause we as archers have the option to use our bows throughout ALL seasons as long as we wear the req. orange. Hunters can use muzzleloaders in both shotgun and primitive seasons. so I guess the traditional dividing lines between the seasons and equipment has been drastically blurred. Hell, at this point, in MA we're on the verge of a deer population exposion and the managers are trying desperately to keep the numbers around 10-12 deer per sq.mile, all with fewer hunters. So as a management tool, as long as they are still viewing 'hunting' as the ONLY legitimate option, whatever they can do I'm all for!

Like AR hunter said, I don't really care what others use...for me its the journey, not the destination. if others choose to provision their journey with gimmicks and gadjets...so be it. As long as they are required to obey the same game laws then we are all on an even footing to start with anyway.

Next year, my goal will be all handmade archery gear, down to hand forged broadheads. nothing commercially purchased (except for my woolens). I will however not compromise safety at this point and will still carry my mobile phone. But far be it from me, to tell others that their choice of archery gear is not correct.

Its all the same people...you still have to get to where the deer are, have properly 'tuned' equipment, breathe, control your mind, aim, and follow thru with any of your choice of equipment.

and lastly....."You don't see folks playing soccer and football on the same field at the same time either". YES YOU DO...its called australian rules or Gaelic football!

 

[Spud]

Originally posted by hickstick@Jan 22 2003, 08:05 AM
here in MA, there is no rifle hunting for deer due to land area v. human population density. they have three seasons now, archery, shotgun, 'primitive firearms' (put it in quotes cause they recently opened it to modern inline/scoped, and permitted ingnition systems to be closed from the environments.)

We have it lucky I guess, cause we as archers have the option to use our bows throughout ALL seasons as long as we wear the req. orange. Hunters can use muzzleloaders in both shotgun and primitive seasons. so I guess the traditional dividing lines between the seasons and equipment has been drastically blurred. Hell, at this point, in MA we're on the verge of a deer population exposion and the managers are trying desperately to keep the numbers around 10-12 deer per sq.mile, all with fewer hunters. So as a management tool, as long as they are still viewing 'hunting' as the ONLY legitimate option, whatever they can do I'm all for!

Like AR hunter said, I don't really care what others use...for me its the journey, not the destination. if others choose to provision their journey with gimmicks and gadjets...so be it. As long as they are required to obey the same game laws then we are all on an even footing to start with anyway.

Next year, my goal will be all handmade archery gear, down to hand forged broadheads. nothing commercially purchased (except for my woolens). I will however not compromise safety at this point and will still carry my mobile phone. But far be it from me, to tell others that their choice of archery gear is not correct.

Its all the same people...you still have to get to where the deer are, have properly 'tuned' equipment, breathe, control your mind, aim, and follow thru with any of your choice of equipment.

and lastly....."You don't see folks playing soccer and football on the same field at the same time either". YES YOU DO...its called australian rules or Gaelic football!

Mobile phones are a great thing to have with you, just remember to keep them turned off. I feel alot safer carrying one, and it seems to make the family happier when I carry mine.