DFG actions force largest hunter safety class in state to

[Kickaha]

The class I went to had about 200 people in it.  They didn't have time for range time (which made me happy).  They did give out free coupons for range time on your own though.  It wasn't until I attended the class that I realized that many of those people had never fired a firearm before.  Personally, I had about 25 years of experience before taking the class.  Very, very scary.  I think students should be required to demonstrate a certain aptitiude before giving them a license.

Anyway, from JerryD's post:

<font face=arial size=1><blockquote><hr noshade size=1>"Class fee shall not exceed $10.00 per student without specific Depatment of Fish and Game approval. To obtain approval, let your regional coordinator know in writing specifically what expenses you will incur and how many students you expect."<hr noshade size=1></blockquote></font>

This outright states that the DFG gave Turners approval to charge $35 for the class.  The DFG approved it in advanced and knew specifically what expenses Turner's was claiming as expenses.  That they changed their mind later -- apparently arbitrarily -- smells fishy.

 

[jerry d]

Now here I go sticking my foot in it again when I should know better!!!

I was certainly not insinuating nor accusing anyone of any wrong when I posted the info from the Hunter Ed. Operations Manual. What I posted was purely informational. One can do what one wishes with the info, or better yet, simply ignore it. I have no idea what the problem may be at Turners.

However, I do know that, over the years, I've come in contact with many of the Dept. of F. & G. personnel that administer the Hunter Ed. program, including Deputy Chief Gonzales and all the Region 3 Administrators(the north coastal area), and found them to fully support the program and totally disagree they have a "bumbling and no care attitude". Our Region Administrator is very supportive of his instructors and goes out of his way to make sure we have what we need to present our classes in a professional and informative manner. He also periodically attends classes in his area to assure all's well.

At the risk of inserting my foot in further, I'd guess that one of the reasons Turner pulls such large class attendance would be extensive advertizing. From what I've read on this post it seems they advertize extensively in the local papers, which is an excellent marketing tool. One would be surprised to find how few people know that the statewide class locations are available on the Dept. of F. & G. website and simply rely on word of mouth to find the classes. This and whatever else Turner is doing should certainly be applauded since they're turning out a large amount of badly needed new blood in the sport. Most of the classes in our area depend on word of mouth from former students, sporting goods/gunshop salespersons and websites for advertizing. Might be time for a little more aggresive advertizing.

Our class certainly doesen't average 200 students per month but I'll need to see the figures in black and white before I'll agree Turner has the best scores STATEWIDE. ALL instructors probably, or should, feel they have the best class statewide. Each instructor should always teach it as if they were the best.

Our class size varies month to month according to what's happening or is about to happen. We have as few as 20 students during the "off months" and as many as 125-150 around the time dove, deer or duck is about to happen. While we feel it should be 0%, our failure rate is approx. 10% and this is usually students 10 years or younger. We run a $10, one day, 12+ hour(6am til ?)class which is hard on the attention span of youngsters of that age. While the long hours make for a long day, we have people coming from as far away as the Redding area because they prefer to go through it in one day.

I personally prefer a smaller class size simply because we can get more students involved in the mechanics of the class by personally involving them in demonstrations, Q&A, personal experience, etc. With a large class there's more disruption due to people having personal "Buddy - Buddy" conversations, constant trips to the restroom, etc. Makes one appreciate our public school teachers pleas for smaller classes.

I agree it's a pity we have the potential of losing 2000 new hunters per year due to the problems Turner is having, but we've only heard one side of the story, from the Turner spokesman. It's a shame we can't hear the Dept of F. & G. version of what's happening. I hope they work it out.

Looking at the number of classes offered in Southern Cal. vs Northern Cal. I'd say more instructors, which would mean more classes, are needed down that way. Why don't some of the people that use this board consider becoming instructors. It's a fun thing to do and, IMHO, a great way to give back something to the outdoor world we all enjoy and treasure. All you need to do is contact one of the instructors in your area, or your local warden, and they can point you in the right direction to get the ball rolling.

An ethical, safe hunter is what our sport is all about......................


Bubba,

I teach at Chabot Gun Club in Castro Valley. It would be a drive for you but we would be happy to have your daughter attend our class. But one suggestion if I may, if your daughter is under 12 yrs., I'd recommend having her attend a two or three day class. As I said, a one day class is extremely difficult for the younger students due to attention span and the amount of material that's presented. I'm one of six instructors and it a loooong day for me.

 

[JBarn3]

Jerry,

I do believe that the region 3 administrators are supportive of the program. And agree that not all DFG officers have the "no care" attitude. However the problem could lie in our geographical area. North-Cal has very different attitude on hunting than So-Cal. Even many of our DFG officers don't like hunters and hunting. I don't know all the facts behind the DFG decision, but I suspect there may be some degree of picking on Turners/Raahagues because they are "flooding Los Angeles with hunters" or some other backward thinking.

 

[spectr17]

I realize there are many DFG employees who care about us hunters, I'm not trying to paint the whole department as lacking or buffoons. My issue is with the bonehead decisions by the DFG employees mentioned in the previous posts regarding the hunter safety class and Turner's. I'm not a lackey for Turner's, I would take issue with the DFG if it was Wal-MArt, K-Mart or whoever they were handcuffing with these lame decisions and arbitrary rules.

If you scheduled an audit or inventory that would shut down a private business during your busy season, costing your company a good chunk of money, you wouldn't last long and would be labeled an idiot.

Contrary to what huntducks is saying, Turner's is doing NOTHING illegal. As posted by Jerry, they can legally charge for the OTHER services or materials. I don't know too many people who will pay 3.5x more than the the going rate for a service or product unless they feel they are getting more bang for their buck. The ISSUE is how can a DFG employee arbitrarily say they'll only allow you x amount for expenses after approving the same expenses the year before. Does this person think the hall rental fee will magically go down or will the advertising suddenly become free? I can assure you that if the class sucked and the seats started to go empty Turner's would drop the price to fill the seats.

One item blatantly missing from the DFG program is how they are going to address the 10% loss. Most businesses would see the loss affecting their bottom line and try to make it up somewhere else. The DFG could care less. Has anyone seen any ads for the safety classes that DFG is going to replace Turner's with? Me neither. Any DFG drive on to recruit more instructors to pick up the slack? Haven't seen squat from the DFG as to how to make up the 10%. Anyone else?

Jerry is correct, all the info on hunter safety is on the DFG webpage. Several sources, myself included have tried to help out by publishing a monthly schedule of where the classes are held. I wish I had some spare time to volunteer to be a safety instructor, but I simply don't. I have chosen to use my webpage and this forum as my way of giving back to the sport and to pass on what many others have taken the time to teach me. I teach and help out when asked and have the time.

Jim Matthews just wrote another column in WON about this issue and he recommends the DFG just get completely out of the hunter safety program and turn it over to the private sector. Can someone give me an AMEN!?  In the article he has the email address for Deputy Chief Gonzalez at the DFG hunter safety. Why not drop him an email and ask him why the 10% loss and what they are doing to pick up the slack. Anyone have his email address? The number for hunter ed is 916-653-1235. Since this is OUR tax dollars paying for this SNAFU, why don't we demand an accounting and public display of the records of why Turner's is being hamstrung over their fees?

Regarding the hundreds of safety instructors in SoCal. There may be that number. I've set up hunter safety classes in other states and the one thing I found is the dates and places are very limited that would fit my schedule. I still haven't done the Arizona class for an extra bonus point because the 2 classes I can attend never have an opening when I can go. More classes would help my choices just like 10% more classes in SoCal would help get more hunters into our community.

I misspoke about Turner's class student score record. Rereading the article, McCormick was quoted as saying Turner's has one of the highest scoring classes in the state.

 

[jerry d]

Joe Gonzales can be reached through e-mail in the Hunter Education section of the Calif. Dept. of Fish & Game website under "How Do I Contact A Regional Coordinator".

 

[huntducks]

Jesse

My problem with T & R is the fact they are charging you for lunch $25 I don't have a problem with them charging for materials for the hunter safty program, but I don't feel that LUNCH is part of the material needed to conduct the program and I beleive the DFG feels the same way, if they want to make it optional that fine they can set up a snack area put a menu up and sell stuff, sample of the menu would go like this.


HOT DOG----$18.00
CHIPS    ----$  3.00
CAN SODA-- $  3.00
COOKIE-----$  1.00

Unless i'm mistaken the classes have been held at Raahauge's, and they are trying to say there is a rental fee for the grounds lets see who gets that money maybe Raahauges, Turners put up a flyer in there store announcing HS class at some future date, they attach to all emails, and put a little box in there weekly add that goes in Western Outdoors news we offer HS classes, Mathews a weekly writter for WO always announces the H&S class and dates, so where is this big add budget.there claiming.

Just crunch the numbers and figure this out 2000 students at $10 is $20,000 that's what most other HS classes run on, but there getting another $50,000 to boot on top of that, and not for one minute do I beleive someone is not making a profit, the HUNTER SAFTY PROGRAM was NOT set up for people to PROFIT from, I don't really care one way or the other, but the law is the law, and if you feel compelled that everthing in our society should be for profit change the law.

If T & R are so consirned with the loss of 10% of the HS class in SoCal, why don't they just drop the lunch and charge $10 per head, WHY because there is NO money in it at $10 a head, and you won't see them step up to the plate to do this, that's WHY.

 

[spectr17]

huntducks,

You may not realize it but you're so hung up on Turner's and them making a profit that it's clouding your logic. Again, there is nothing in the DFG rules on the safety classes saying they CANNOT charge for lunch or advertising or range time. Refer to Jerry's post about what they can and CAN'T charge. DFG isn't saying they can't charge for the meeting hall or lunch or advertising, they are setting an arbitrary limit on these fees regardless what Turner's is claiming they are actually paying for them.

If you have a bone to pick with Turner's that's fine, but this discussion is about the hunter saefty class and not another agenda you have with Turner's. I don't know what law you are refrering to but as Jerry has posted and the way most of us are reading the DFG rules, Turner's is well within the law. It's quite the opposite of what you are saying, if you don't want anyone making a profit off of the hunter safety then DFG needs to change their rules on how the classes are run and what can be charged. Make it a mandatory $10.00 cost for the class and you cannot submit any overhead costs, lest you might make a profit however large or small.

<font face=arial size=1><blockquote><hr noshade size=1>Where is Turner's advertising budget?<hr noshade size=1></blockquote></font>

You really think those flyers they print up are free? Have you ever run a business or worked selling something? Last time I printed up flyers and business cards I had to pay a printer and an graphic artist for their work. Several hundred dollors worth and they didn't last long after handing them out at a few places. If you run ads in media and take part of that ad to pimp a service, even if it's your own, you lose space that could go to a paying sponser. Do yourself a favor and call a printer and graphic artist to see what it would cost you do have the same work done. This may help you realize advertising doesn't happen for free. Without this adverstising I'm sure Turner's would not get the same numbers of students.

About Raahauges, why don't you call Raahauges and see what it would cost for you to rent out the hall there? This will help you understand that Raahauges didn't build, pay taxes, insurance  and utilities and maintain the hall to let people use it for free.

<font face=arial size=1><blockquote><hr noshade size=1>If T & R are so consurned with the loss of 10% of the HS class in SoCal, why don't they just drop the lunch and charge $10 per head.<hr noshade size=1></blockquote></font>

Why? because they have the above mentioned overhead. It's as plain as the nose on your face. If you really want to help out here, find a hall for them to meet in that is free and find a printer and graphic artist who will do the handouts and artwork for free.

One last time I'll ask the simple question you keep ducking that shows your whole argument is flawed. Why, if the Turner's class is such a ripoff does it have the largest attendance and some of the best scores in the state? Also, why do those who have attended the class here, posted positive reviews about the class if it's such a scam? If it was such as scam I would think most would be calling for it's closure.

Also, what's your feelings on getting the DFG out of the hunter safety? Got any ideas to help out with the 10% loss of hunter safety classes we now have or does that even matter to you?

 

[huntducks]

Jesse

I'll answer your question as why people use turners because they don't look for anything else they are so brain washed here in SoCal with the cost of everything being so damn hi that they think $35 is a bargin, not knowing there are classes out there for FREE to $10.the same classes don't waste much on adverstizing, you have to get off your a$$ to find one like call a local shooting range, try DFG web site pick up WON, that might be ask alot.

Jesse I do know how a business works that's why at the age of 54 i'm retired, I sold my Plumbing business over 4 years ago, so somehow I must have either been lucky or done a thing or two right.

I know what printing cost are but i'll bet somewhere in the vast Turner network they have a computer with Word loaded a printer and a copy machine,( I even have one) and several reams of paper, there weekly add in WON always had a little box about hunter safety class forming, now that they removed that box i'll bet there add is almost free, and Jim Mathews gave them more free publicity then any other class in SoCal.

Do I think there whole set up smelled fishy you bet I do.

The city hall where I live has a meeting hall holds over 200 rents for $250 per day and that includes table set up lets see if I charge $35 dollars per head I might be able to cover rent, I was not a math major so I don't know if I have enought left for hot dogs & cokes.

You bet I read what Jerry D said and it said class fee's shall not exceed $10.00 per student WITHOUT SPECIFIC DFG approval so what there now doing is reviewing there fee's to see why there triple of many other HS courses in the state.

Does turners write off there whole add that they put in the newspaper and WON because it says hunter safty class being offered? what does Raahauge charge for the use of there facilty's $1000-$2000 per day? maybe the DFG is trying to get a handel on that, will most likely never know because there a private Corp. but i'll bet on paper there spending the whole $70,000 + per year and i'll bet the money is going right back to both of there Corp. in class fee's charged.

Like I said before I have no problem with what they charge as long as it's within the DFG code or law.

Why do they have some of the best scores in the state you got me, why are people so satisfied well because you only have to go through it once, not every year at a different place, it's like the guy who goes on his first guided hunt and get a nice animal he only knows that hunt, but next year he goes on his second hunt with a different guide and it's twice what his first was which one will he remember which one will he recomend the first or second, so hunter safty classes are a one time thing for most.

Will just have to agree to disagree on this one, let them put all the marbles on the table and if there all round let them run there over priced program.

(Edited by huntducks at 12:25 am on May 19, 2002)

 

[jerry d]

Not to keep this thing going but in my origional post I failed to include two paragraphs from the "Fees" section of the Hunter Ed. Operations Manual, so here goes and everyone will have read the entire "Fees" section and can make of it what they wish.

"An administrative fee of $3.00 shall be charged for the issuance of the duplicate certificate. These monies shall be accounted for and utilized as noted in this manual for other class fees. The instructor must write the origional class information on the duplicate certificate. The certificate shall be marked "Duplicate" by the instructor. The instructor shall complete a Scantron student record form and forward it to Sacramento indicating the issuance of the duplicate certificate."

"If the instructor has a written budget on file, expenses and income need not balance for every class. For instance, larger classes during the summer may bring income beyond the expenses, while small off season classes may cost more than the income. The fee charged should allow the instructor to balance out at the end of the year. This policy does not prevent an instructor from teaching hunter education while employed by a school district, park and recreation department or other agency, as long as the salary is independent of the number of students in the class. Instructors shall not be paid a percentage of student fees."

So, if anyone has wondered what to do if you lose your certificate - you can go back to the instructor that issued your origional and give him/her 3 bucks and they will look up your name in their records and issue you a duplicate. If they can't find your name, or if they're no longer around, you can then contact the Dept. of F. & G. and they can do the same from their data base. Just a side note, records have only been kept for the last 20 or so years. If you attended before that time frame and lose your origional certificate, you'll probably need to take the class again or, if I'm not mistaken, you can fill out an affidavit stating you previously had a Calif. license which will allow you to purchase a license in Calif. but you'll need a new certificate to purchase a license in another state. We have a few people attend our class for that reason.

The way I understand the second paragraph, it simply states that income and expences should balance out at the end of the year and instructors can't profit from the program.

So there, you're now experts on "Fees" - and it only cost you $1.00(since this is not "teaching" I'm allowed to charge), which I'll expect to find in my mail box ASAP!!!! :roll-wink-green: :big-grin-aqua:

 

[Kickaha]

If you took your class at T&R, you can get the duplicate certificate for free in person or a smaller than $3 fee by mail.

 

[spectr17]

Turner's Hunter Safety Class Closure

Jim Matthews  ONS

6/5/02

With the closure of the Turner's Outdoorsman hunter safety classes, formerly the largest classes in the state, there will be some 2,000 students a year who will need to find a class in Southern California. At least three of the course instructors in the region are gearing up to try to field the additional students they expect to come to their classes. Jim Everitt (909-874-2449) of the West End Gun Club said they normally teach 25 to 30 students, but could handle up to 100 at the clubhouse in Ontario. Blaine Allen (909-781-4868), who runs classes at the Inland Fish and Game range in Redlands, said they could probably double their normal student class size. Tom Harris (909-987-0811), who runs classes at his home in Rancho Cucamonga, could field up to nearly 200 students if needed, but normally has classes that are much smaller.

For a complete list of classes available, first-time California hunters should check the DFG's website at: http://www.dfg.ca.gov/huntered/he_classes.html. You can also call the DFG in Long Beach at (562) 590-5185 for information on classes.