DFG arrests 3 in Tulare County

[dreaminhogs]

I saw an the local news the other night that 3 men were arrested on animal cruelty charges. The men were arrested by DFG officers after they were caught using dogs to bay pigs. After the pigs were bayed the men would cut the animals throughts then have the dogs attack them after there throughts were cut. DFG reported spending 600 man hours while investigating the men prior to the arrests. This was not reported in the Fresno paper so I am unable to post the article. Does anyone have any more information on this?

 

[Cda55]

This is the first I've heard of this. Do you know where in Tulare County it was going on at. I'll check the Hanford and Fresno paper in a few.

 

[dreaminhogs]

CDA55, No I caught the tail end of it on the news Tuesday. The Fresno Bee never reported it.

 

[Backcountry]

I haven't heard the story, but I'm pretty sure in CA it's a game code violation to take a pig with anything other than a rifle, handgun, or bow... jumping on their backs and slitting their throats with a knife, while quite exciting and sporting (you can get gored for Pete's sake), is not considered a legal method of take.

Cruelty to animals though? B.S.

Backcountry

 

[dreaminhogs]

The charge of cruelty to animals was due to the fact that the dogs were sent in to kill the dogs. The other thing I forgot to mention was they videod the entire thing.

 

[wmidbrook]

Isn't pig sticking legal in Hawaii? I knew a guy from hawaii during my commercial fishing years who said that was a big deal there....maybe only under the auspices of a tribal hunt or something too possibly.

 

[Rick]

I had a Japanese friend who grew up in Hawaii and they used knives (among other means) to hunt hogs. The dogs ran the hog past him, he jumped on and cut the pig's throat. It is also legal in Texas.

In California, it is legal to use dogs, but you must use a bow, shotgun, rifle or handgun to take big game. This could be a dangerous precedent, though, if the animal cruelty charge is maintained. A violation of the game laws, maybe, but a cruelty charge leaves all hunting or even butchering open to question.

 

[Arrowslinger]

I turkey guided on a 100K+ acre plantation in South Carolina & they offered knife/spear hunts for pigs.....i saw some video of a few kills, pretty damn amazing to go in there with a 12" knife & stick 'em. Not for this kidd t

hough.

 

[Kentuck]

I met some folks years ago that would run hogs with dogs and then go in with bayonets and bowie knives and stick them in the chest targeting the heart. Showed me picks of one huge boar they got but not before it killed a dog.

I agree that the animal cruelty charges might open the door for something worse. Espcially since DFG is involved.

 

[wmidbrook]

Doesn't seem like DFG would be pressed to pursue a case like this (600 hrs investigation work) especially given that pigs are non-indigenous and the 'eradication policy' in place....

Sounds more like something a sheriff's dept. would pursue where liberals are running the show.

In some respect, it reminds me of the 2 or 3 marine grunts caught a few years back shooting wild horses out in Nevada--they had the book thrown at them. Max penalties I believe. Of course, this was the time that the Horse Whisperer was a sensation. Most cowboys of course call these horses 'shitters' as they leave huge dung mounds to mark their territories. Never mind that the horses were displacing vital elk/antelope and mule deer carrying capacity. Yes, it was cruel and unusual by golly~!

And it's suprising that those 3 grunts weren't met out in near a desert Oasis somewhere by an enterage of Hummers with Japanese Gastronimic Experts at the wheel from the Iron Chef show bidding upwards of $50 - $100 for wild horse meat--one of the most highly sought after delicacies in Asia. This wouldn't be all that dissimilar from the fleets of cigarette boats that scream to the radio hail of a giant blue fin tuna that's been caught...bidding wars for the fresh delicacy before it's even hit shore~!

Somewhere I've heard there's growing blackmarket for feral pig for that matter....

I digress

the law's the law

Although not exactly tasteful, it doesn't seem exactly like those boys were guilty of any high crime...what are we going to do...start putting video cams in the Meat Lockers of America and when that Hot Shot isn't fully charged, sue the meat companies~! That cow deserved a quick & humane death of course, but just how quick and just how 'humane'?

 

[Caninelaw]

Hey guys, just FYI, there is a law on the books that prevents some left wing wacko hunter hater from trying to use the animal cruelty laws against legal and ethical hunters.

599c Penal Code. No part of this title shall be construed as interfering with
any of the laws of this state known as the "game laws," or any laws
for or against the destruction of certain birds, nor must this title
be construed as interfering with the right to destroy any venomous
reptile, or any animal known as dangerous to life, limb, or property,
or to interfere with the right to kill all animals used for food, or
with properly conducted scientific experiments or investigations
performed under the authority of the faculty of a regularly
incorporated medical college or university of this state.


So, the reason they could be charged with animal cruelty is that they didn't follow the "game laws" of the state.

 

[Speckmisser]

Regardless of what you think of the law prohibiting hunting with knives (or spears), these guys were breaking the law.

And if they really were crippling up the hogs and then letting the hounds finish them off... well that's cruel to both the hogs AND the hounds. I admittedly don't know much about hound hunting, but I doubt you'll find many ethical houndsmen who would send their prized animals in to face the tusks of a wounded boar. In the hound hunts I've seen, the handler wants the shooter in place quick, so he can get his dogs away before one of them gets hurt.

I'm betting these jerks were hit with the most serious charges the wardens could hit them with. We all know that most game law violators seem to walk away with a smack on the wrist. Hopefully, by sticking the animal cruelty charges in there, these guys will face stiffer penalties.

And that's the way it should be. Crap like these guys were doing wreaks irreparable harm to the future of the sport we love. Burn them good and set the example. I would expect real hunters to stand behind the law on this, and certainly not rally to defend the actions of this bunch.

If you think the law is wrong, fine. Fight to have it changed. If you decide instead to just ignore it and go in violation, then don't come crying to me when you get caught. and have to pay the penalty.

By the way, Bill, those idiots in Nevada were doing drive-bys on the horses with .22 cal weapons, and leaving many of them wounded and crippled. I don't care how bad the wild horses are for the environment, or how much they fetch on the market... those losers were every bit as bad as the guys who pour gasoline on dogs or cats and burn them alive. They weren't shooting those horses to "save the desert" or to sell on market. They were joy riding and shooting animals for the freakin' fun of it!

In my opinion, they still got off way too easy.

 

[MikenSoCo]

I'm willing to bet the true problem with deterring gun/poaching laws will shine through. That is the long hours of hard work by the enforcment officers will be minimized by some bleeding heart liberal judge.

 

[dreaminhogs]

Speckmisser, I could not agree with you more. This is something that gives hunters a bad name. While the general public can hear about the Marines that shot the horses in Nevada they can also understand that by no means were they considered "HUNTERS". The 3 men arrested by DFG unfortunatly will be looked upon as hunters in general. Here is another thought if I was a rancher and had viewed the news regarding this arrest how inclined would I be to allow someone to hunt pigs on my property.

 

[wmidbrook]

Well, the only "facts" we have to go on are second-hand, word-of-mouth at best.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

After the pigs were bayed the men would cut the animals throughts then have the dogs attack them after there throughts were cut[/b]

Any animal that's had it's throat cut is out cold in seconds and dead in less than a minute. How can sicking a brace of dogs on a dead animal be construed as cruelty to animals? Wonton waste of game, yes. Unethical, yes....

Whether the taking of a feral pig is ethical with a knife or spear is highly debatable in conjunction with hounds. It's legal in some states. If these bozo's had done the same in Hawaii or Texas, they might not even have been investigated. I'm not condoning, nor defending what they did.

What I am doing is questioning some of these grey zones about what constitutes 'cruelty to animals'.

Believe you me, I'm all for quickly and humanely dispatching any quary I'm hunting.

I didn't know the details you mentioned on the wild mustang events--if they were taking potshots with .22's and wounding/maiming animals, obviously that's bad news and highly unethical. There was a time when shooting these mustangs was fully supported and encouraged so it is an illustration of how popular public opion has shifted in the last 25 years. Now they get cruelty to animal charges as opposed to a slap on the wrists as would have happened 25+ years ago. And of course some formerly wild mustangs are converted into useful horses which is how the change began anyway....but, that's a seperate issue.

In regards to these 'pig hunters', I just hate to see charges trumped up, but that's probably just a result of what enforcement needs to do in order to get actual charges to stick. And the ethics of taking a hog with a knife or using hounds as opposed to other means are definately debatable--Phillip, I know you don't like hunting behind hounds. Personally, I'd rather spot and stalk too but by no means am I in a camp trying to narrow the scope of houndsmens' hunting privileges.

Either way, a ton of people will misconstrue what these guys did and equate it with "hunting with hounds is 'cruelty to animals'". Who hasn't seen a bird dog try to get ahold of a dead bird and chew it? or lick off some blood? ...imagine the same holds true for hounds....and I'd imagine there are a few out there that let dogs do this to make them 'birdier' or 'piggier' or whatever....

Anyway, it could well be that those guys were lo-life scumbags. I just think more thought should be given to what these types/yahoos are charged with to minimize any negative reflection on hunting in general.

 

[wmidbrook]

You know, I just get the general feeling that we hunters are slowly being push into a closet.

It's no longer okay to talk in nitty gritty detail about a kill. What's wrong with enjoying ALL aspects of hunting including the kill? Society has most non-farm raised folks under 50 inchocated/instilled with notions that a kill is a gruesome thing that should somehow be divorced from the reality of our existence.

It's not socially acceptable to publically ponder how that package hamburger at the grocery store actually got there.

Case in point how do you feel when you read this (from another post here):<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

“…They will be shot in the head. You can now hear the squealing and pain of a caged wild animal. You may also hear the gunshots that kill them. Sometimes it takes more than one shot.
“Of course it will be necessary for the park to change their signs that are visible in many areas. Instead of reading ‘all plants and wildlife are protected,’ it should now read ‘all plants and some wildlife are protected.”[/b]

RMEF outdoor's show doesn't even show animals hitting the ground after being shot. There are lots of hunters starting to find "hunting video's" distasteful.

Hunters are asked to "cover" all game in many states (like those pics of a dead deer on the hood with an red circle line going thru it) so that it's not visible to Joe Public--other states with a stronger tradition of hunting require that be transported such that it's visible.

So, we're rapidly being reduced to a 'secret, closeted hunting society' 'cause poor Mary Public might upchuck if she sees the head of an elk or deer strapped down to the cab of a pick-up. Well, maybe it might pop the bubble of naivete' she lives in if she saw that.

Either way, Mary Public has full on choice. She doesn't have to hunt. She doesn't have to visit a slaughter house to see how a kill is performed there. She doesn't have to look at that truck with a dead elk in it. And she has the right, By God, to be a Vegan if she chooses. (BTW, I don't want to look at that bag of dead oranges strapped to the cab of her truck).

But, old Mary Public is having more & more influence vis-a-vis the law to tell me how I can go about getting/handling/processing the meat I choose to eat and I don't particularly like that.

Whatever happened to live & let live? tolerance?

 

[Speckmisser]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

In regards to these 'pig hunters', I just hate to see charges trumped up, but that's probably just a result of what enforcement needs to do in order to get actual charges to stick. And the ethics of taking a hog with a knife or using hounds as opposed to other means are definately debatable--Phillip, I know you don't like hunting behind hounds. Personally, I'd rather spot and stalk too but by no means am I in a camp trying to narrow the scope of houndsmens' hunting privileges.[/b]

Whoa! Dude!

I don't care at all about hound hunting. I don't like to do it myself, but don't go saying I'm trying to narrow the scope of houndsmen's privileges! If you haven't seen some of my lengthy diatribes in support of the houndsmen, then trust me when I say I'm all for LEGAL methods of take. Just because it doesn't work for me... lord, don't get me started.

These guys were breaking the law. Plain and simple. Knives are NOT legal methods of take. It's in the book. If these guys or you didn't like it, it still doesn't make it OK to go out and do it anyway. Debate about the rightness or wrongness to your heart's content... but it's illegal until they change the law, whether you or anyone likes it or not. Legality in other states doesn't equal legality everywhere.

It's not even about ethics. I've killed a hog with a knife, and while my experience wasn't all that mind blowing, I can see a certain thrill. If it were legal here, I might try it again. The hog squealed for a minute or two, but that KaBar killed him just as fast as a heart shot arrow. I definitely don't think it's cruel.

But, again, it's illegal in the state of California. Period.

As to what these guys were doing, if they were killing the pigs and letting the dogs ravage the corpse, that's one thing, and it certainly wouldn't amount to animal cruelty. But the DFG knows the difference between a dead pig and a wounded one, no matter how much dispersion we may occasionally cast on their competence.

They didn't spend that many hours to bust someone for breaking the "legal methods of take" regulations. I have to believe there was a lot more to it.

Without benefit of seeing the videos or reading the DFG reports, it sounds a lot like the old-style bear-bating, where you tie a bear and let the pitbulls fight it to the death. They used to do it with hogs in a pen, too. It was considered great entertainment.

And again, I've only had limited experience with hound hunting for hogs, but I never saw the houndsmen allow their dogs to ravage the carcass. Actually, what I experienced was exactly the opposite... the dogs were driven off the carcass and tied to trees to keep them off. This was both first hand experience, and through watching videos of hound hunts (which are always more exciting than my own trips).

Deer hounds, which I have significantly more experience with, will generally ignore the deer once it's down, except for a few sniffs.

But here's the meat of it all...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Either way, a ton of people will misconstrue what these guys did and equate it with "hunting with hounds is 'cruelty to animals'".[/b]

And that's exactly why I believe we have to burn the perpetrators a new bunghole for what they were doing, and using whatever means necessary. Non-hunters don't generally see ethical, legal hunters at our sport. They only see these exceptions, and by that they believe the exception is the norm.

If these guys were doing what they're accused of, and they walk out on light charges, that's when you'll see the real backlash against hunting, and especially against hound hunting.

 

[Huntin' Foo']

Nice reply Speck!

 

[bayedsolid]

The main problem hunters run into as a whole is the fact that there is never any positive publicity out there for the general public and non-hunters to see. Not every non-hunter is an anti, and these folks could use our side of the story instead of just the negative. You'll never see a story on the 6 o'clock news about a family hunting trip where a 12 year old shot their first buck after long hours and many days of hunting, scouting ect... and how rewarding all of the hard work put in was, and the payoff in the end. How these trips bring families and people together. The wonderful experience of bringing home many meals for your family and friends. All we ever see is the jack-ass that shoots poor little Bambi with a spotlight from the pick-up truck. When that is the only side of the coin people see, that is all they know. The media is all about the negative with everything, which is why I can't stand to watch the news anyhow. I can give you tonights episode without watching it......Home burglarized, 2 men shot, woman raped....now the weather. I'm not going to pass judgment on these guys with the dogs because I didn't even see the news report. They probably were some crapheads that deserved it or they wouldn't have had so much time investigating it, but I'm sure the media made it look as bad as they could......It's more entertaining that way.

 

[dreaminhogs]

How can I get the details regarding these arrests from DFG. I have had no luck pulling up any articles via newspapers or the DFG web site. I know the information I saw on the news Tuesday did happen as I have spoken to others who saw the report. I would like to post the details so that everything is clear.