Speckmisser

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I've been kind of hanging back on this one, and giving it a lot of thought. Seems to be a lot of this kind of thing happening lately (new member posts story including "questionable" tactics and a whole debate begins), and I'm a little disturbed. The thing is, I'm having trouble deciding what disturbs me more... the fact that so many people think it's OK to post up about these activities, the thought that maybe they don't even realize that it's questionable, or the holier-than-thou posts that come as a result.

I know a lot of folks on this list are extremely principled hunters with a very strict set of ethical rules. You people are the truest examples of "good hunter", and should be emulated for the good of our sport. We all know that our hunting traditions are constantly under attack, and the best defense we have available is good public image. That image is managed and maintained by demonstrating ethical and legal behavior in the field.

We have to go beyond our behavior in the field, though, and carefully consider how we report our activities, both success and failure. This is true whether we're chatting around the pot-bellied stove at the hardware store, or posting our adventures on the World Wide Web. Our audience is far wider than the "initiated", and it's important to remember that one wrong word can get spun into another anti-hunting horror story. It's an easy fact to forget, when we're sitting around in the comfort of JHO, "chatting" up our experiences.... bragging, lying, or simply recounting a tale. But don't think for a moment that everyone who reads this list is a friend to the hunting community.

With this in mind, I think it's a very good thing that folks here are so willing to read the riot act to those who post about illegal and generally unethical practices. They should be shown the error of their ways, in no uncertain terms. But would it be so hard to offer constructive criticism, rather than the increasingly common, "you're a jerk and a bad hunter?"

Or worse yet, "That's not the way I choose to hunt, so that's not hunting."
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I would expect that this would be common courtesy, at the very least. Why not give benefit of the doubt, and offer your criticism as advice. For example, "Congrats on getting your first wild hog. I guess some people really enjoy road hunting, but I find it much more fulfilling to leave the truck and get away from the roads."

Or, as was done in this thread, "Isn't it illegal to use a vehicle as a rest in CA?"

If the perpetrator is then unrepentant, then lay on, McDuff... and damned be he that first cries, "Hold! Enough!"

But I believe that there is also a point where our personal ethics get in the way, and where judgement is unfairly cast... often, I might add, from people who have no right to cast it. Especially in a format such as this forum, it's a little too common to see people taking a higher road than they've ever actually travelled themselves. So many times, list member responses originate from an ideal rather than from reality.

For example, I know danged well that the majority of JHO members I've met would not hesitate at the lucky opportunity to take a deer or hog right off the road. I include myself in that number (not that I'd ever be so lucky). Whether or not they'd post up about it as their "hunting adventure" is a different question... especially given the reception such posts tend to receive around here. But for some people, that lucky kill is every bit as exciting as a five mile stalk over rugged cliffs and jagged rock... especially when that lucky kill is a first. Who here has any honest right to judge that?

I'll go a step further out on a limb here, and suggest that most of the "old-time" JHO members could post about such a hunt, and not receive half the grief that newbies receive. Which leads me to part of the reason this fairly recent trend bothers me... this apparent intolerance for new members on this site.

The second most significant threat to our sport (after anti-hunter efforts) is the decline in the number of hunters. We need to build the community, not tear it down. There is strength in numbers, and we are going to need all the strength we can muster if we want to keep the hunting and fishing traditions alive in this country.

I'm not saying we have to accept all behavior without criticism. I'm certainly not suggesting, even, that you keep your opinions to yourselves. Those of you who've known my presence on this list for a while know that I have offered my share of lambasting in certain cases. I'm sure I'll do it again. I have my hot-button issues, just like many of you.

I'm not buying into the whole, "we have to stick together no matter what," mentality. If you're breaking the law or doing something that threatens the future of the sport I love... well, I'm gonna sing out loud and clear. I would hope that any one of you would do the same.

What I AM suggesting is that we temper our opinions with reality... especially when it comes to someone's choice of legal and ethical activities. Step down from the ideal to consider that, while it's great to strive for lofty goals, most folks will never reach that summit. The majority of us still have feet of clay, and that's just the way the world is.

I suggest as well that we remember that our personal ethics do not pertain to every outdoorsman in the country, or in the world. We all hunt for different reasons. Our definition of a good hunt and success vary widely. You can't set the standard for everyone else. Set it for yourself, live with it, and let others live with their own.

Here, with JHO, we have the foundation of a great gathering point for the community of outdoorsmen and women. We should welcome new members with tolerance and patience. We can offer the benefit of knowledge and experience, and possibly help to mold attitudes rather than trying to beat them into shape.

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bzzboyz

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Wow. You said a screenf full. Excellent post.

I'll just hit on a few areas because I'm sure that there will be plenty of opinions on the entire post.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
"That's not the way I choose to hunt, so that's not hunting."[/b]

This one really gets under my skin. I really enjoy hunting Exotics in the off season, so I've heard this one many times. I'ts real simple. It's my time, my money, and legal. That's makes it my personal choice. Like the old saying goes, "If you can't say somehting nice, don't say anything at all.

Now if I do something unethical or illegal and am stupid enough to brag about it on a public forum, then I deserve what I get. Unless of course, like the post in question the poster clearly stated that this was his first hunting trip. The man was just following the lead of what he assumed was an experienced hunter. In this case I think it is our responsibility to inform him of his misgivings but not bash him. If anyone needs to be bashed, it's the guy who took him hunting, not the first time hunter.

Those are my only two points on the subject. I'm sure there will be many more.
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bayedsolid

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Is it too late to get on the November ballot Speck?
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You sure have a knack for hitting the nail on the head most of the time. I've spent time on a few other hog hunting forums, mostly based in the south, and I really hated the way 90% of the posts had nothing to do with hunting experiences or questions. Most were one person bashing the next guy and his dogs ect... It doesn't matter if the forum is about hunting or not, for some reason people find their little cliques and the god complex comes out. Guess it's just human nature........and, well...... the anonymity doesn't hurt either. A few of the boards even shut down completely for that very reason. People were scared to say anything at all for fear of being ambushed by everyone else. Anyway, I'm suprised all the time how you don't see that type of attitude here nearly as much as most other forums of any topic. Well, enough rambling. Good post Speck.
 

BDB

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Yeah, what he said
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I have thought many of those thoughts quite a few times lately but don't have the gift to write up like you do. Very good post !
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Backcountry

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Originally posted by bayedsolid@ Jun 23 2004, 10:45 AM
and, well...... the anonymity doesn't hurt either. 
I think one of the many good things about getting to know some of the JHO crew "face-to-face" is losing your anonymity. Heck, when I screw up now I know I might have to answer to campcook50, BDB, in2blacktail, SierraExplorer, PIGIG, Mel_Carter, Kentuck, BOWUNTR, or ManFreddy... some I've met only once, some I see often and have become good friends with, but all are guys I respect and wouldn't want to disappoint (or piss off).

Not to segue to far from the original intent of Speckmisser's post, but I'd venture a guess that it helps some guys think twice before hitting the "add reply" button once they've met a few of their fellow JHO'ers.

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Backcountry
 

BirdDawg

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I know what you mean speck.....awhile back I posted about how I was hunting hogs and around midnight I spotted a nice one.....I hung my 22 out the window of my VW and the gun jammed.......and this yahoo starts telling me I should clean my gun better!!!!!!
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J/K..............good post Speck.
 

Jake

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Speckmisser,

Excellent points, and well written.
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Muddy Z

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Well I will add in here because I am one who has made posts in two different threads of late questioning the hunter. As you may have seen I am fairly new here myself and knew that full well after 20 replies of congratulations, my reply probably wasn't going to come across that well.

Not sure how much this is directed at me but I am guessing that this must have occurred a few other times for it to warrant a post so I won't assume this is me specifically.

While I realize the intent of your message, to be honest everyone doesn't have the ability to write as elegantly as your self. In your post HERE you clearly explain how I felt as well, you just said it in a much better way.

You also mentioned numbers. This site has like a million memebers already so I am sure you can't be worried about losing a few. You also mentioned our numbers as hunters and the need to stick together. If I am commenting on something in a negative manner its because I don't think it helps our cause as "hunters". Road hunting is one of these methods and I feel the need to speak out when so many other hunters are congratulating someone.

The bottom line is I feel like I have been asked to tone down my opinion and make sure I am more concerned with the feelings of others. To be honest, the reason I come here is to get away from the crap that we all have to deal with in real life. One of those things is watching how I phrase every sentence to prevent others from being offended.

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easymoney

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Specmisser,
As always, very well put.
EVERYONE WAS A NEWBIE ONCE, so be respectful of what others say or ask. Even if it sounds silly...
 

superduty

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This post couldn't have came at a better time. Kuddos to you Speck.
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I just got off of a site looking for numbers to find the tuna come Friday morning and saw the exact same bashing on what was always a pasive board in the past. I'ts a shame. If you go back to the original thread you will see that it was myself that posted first but still held it as a question. I was not there, there for I cannot do anything other than ask the question. Directly after asking the question I read what I posted and noticed that I didn't give the new poster any kind of congragulations on his superb shooting. This I corrected immediately. He then reposted pleading his case on what concearned me and the air was cleared. NO STRIPES on the piglets. I too understand as a hunter that everybody has their opinions on what is an ethical hunt or just the opposite. I have my beliefs as I do expect everyone of you do too. Each state offers different laws to govern the hunting and without being raised in that state you might think how they are allowed to harvest an animal is just plain wrong or maybe even cruel. I keep my opinions to myself but don't expect that to be so if the laws that govern the hunt have been broken. I watched the bashing going on and felt partially responsible. Not knowing how to put an end to it I just kept reading. I applaude you Speck.
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I hope our original topic starter comes back to JHO to experience what I have since Iv'e joined and that is a world of information and new friends. Divided We Fall.
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Oh and by the way DFG told me personnaly if you have one foot off the road then you are legal. Did anybody notice where his feet where?? I hunt the Tejon Ranch as most of you know and have not taken such a shot because it has never been offered to me.
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spectr17

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Muddy Z,

It's not directed at anyone in particular. We try and point out the unethical behavior in a smooth way but some do come across very direct.

We've taken some members to task over their stories and pics, one I remember well posted pics with beer cans right next to their guns and they took their ball and went home. Our goal is to educate and bring them over to the other side if we can. Some truly don't know what they are doing is wrong and some couldn't care less.

We're not saying you have to be PC, just at least try and win them over to our side. We need all the voting hunters and fishermen we can muster.
 

Speckmisser

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Muddy,

My post was directed at several folks in general, and not necessarily anyone in particular. However, if you are one of the people who likes to post about how anyone not hunting YOUR way isn't "hunting", then yes, it was directed at you too.

Besides that, I don't take much issue with anything you or anyone else has said. Valid criticism is an important tool in making sure folks are doing the right thing in the field. We have to police our own ranks.

As to our numbers...

It's not about JHO losing membership. I'm more concerned about losing another potentially active member of the hunting community. Everyone may not agree with me on this point, but I see these virtual gathering places becoming vital resources... even rallying points in the battle to preserve our hunting heritage. Hunters have been traditionally unorganized and isolated. Global communities like this one allow us to get together and see the "big picture", an opportunity most hunters never had before. We can see how widespread are the efforts of anti-hunters and anti-gunners, and we can organize as a group to do something about it.

The loss of even one member of that community does bother me. Especially when that loss was unnecessarily precipitated by intolerance and elitism.

JHO has a great reputation for NOT being elitist and overbearing. People come here from other forums because of that. For my part, I'd like to see JHO keep the reputation, and not turn into another forum where new members are intimidated and no one wants to post for fear of upsetting the status quo.
 

nofear25

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Good post speck... Like you said JHO has a rep of not bein overbearing & elitist and that is why I started comin here. I was usin this other hog huntin forum and whenever I would ask a question that they thought was under them b/c I was a newbie they would make fun of me and give me crap for it... I hope people listen to easymoney has to say "EVERYONE WAS A NEWBIE ONCE, so be respectful of what others say or ask." i donno theres
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songdog

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I think that one of the things that disturbs me most is when someone posts something questionable or plain out of line and gets called on it but then jumps back on it defending it and/or other JHO folks defending it.

That first correction/admonishment should be done in the appropriate way and there's no reason to crucify someone on their first post. However, if they want to stand there and defend their actions then all bets are off. If you didn't know/realize that it wasn't appropriate to do something until someone said something, then the first one is free. Do it again or defend it and you just show your own ignorance.

I'm not talking about style or preference here... it's only when it's black and white, right and wrong.

I do think that it is appropriate, and even necessary, for those who have been hunting for 25+ years take the time to firmly let someone who is new to the sport know that driving around herding game with your vehicle, taking 500 yard shots at game, shooting after legal light, shooting double limits, etc. are not part of hunting. Whether that be a legal issue or just a moral conscience issue.

I've been around JHO since the early days and feel quite confident that there is virtually nobody here of any stature who would confront someone on an error and then continue to beat them up after they changed their ways. Learn from the mistake and everyone I know around here can be a very forgiving group. Try and defend it, well...
 

spectr17

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Hey, it's not as bad as losing your new rifle for a month or sitting at the house while your Dad, uncles and cousins went hunting after you screwed up. The "look" from the old man was enough when I got out of line. Gettin disarmed by your pop was about that worst thing that could happen to a kid. Well, taking you to a Cubs game may be worse. And all your buddies knew you screwed the pooch when you showed up without the new gun to hunt rabbits after school.
 

Cal hunter

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Good post I recently joined JHO because all the posts seemed so helpful like everyone on here were good friends.I couldnt wait to take my first hog and share the story with everyone but here latley I was having second thoughts about even posting a question becuase I didnt want to get bashed if some of you thought it was a stupid question.Glad some one spoke up because latley this hasent been the JHO I joined thaks speck!
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Raully

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This was a well needed topic. Thanks Spec, well written.
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Can I get a hug now J/K
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Rancho Loco

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Yeah! We don't have to thump on the newbies...Lets just hammer Speckmisser like we always have done..




J/K...Good post, big
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