Don't expect AZ any time soon

[widgnwhacker]

superduty,

Hate to break the ice to you, but you don't have a clue as to what my mentality is when it comes to Conservation of our resources and Hunting in general.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

  Buy it up and put a fence around it so no one else can enjoy it. Your putting a fence around your state Bro.[/b]

Im not putting a fence around anything, Im merely stating FACT!

If I wanted to hunt ELK in California well I can't because NON-RESIDENTS are NOT ELIGIBLE to apply. So who has a FENCE around their state?

Not Arizona, we are just saying, that unlike California

If you would like to hunt in our state, then you will have to pay the price. If you don't like the prices then look elsewhere to fulfill your hunting desire.

Arizona Game and Fish Department does an OUTSTANDING job at what they do, which is putting Conservation and License and Tag Funds to good use. Also the conservation groups within Arizona play a major role in supporting AZGFD and the great resources that our state has to offer. Not only to RESIDENTS but Non-Residents like yourself.

Or as muskeg, had mentioned you could go to the TEJON RANCH or some other CANNED HUNT and get yourself an Elk.

WW

 

[superduty]

It just seems your laying claim to the animals in your state as if they are yours and not ours.

How would you Cali guys like it if we Non-Residents that don't Live, Work or Pay Taxes just walked right into your favorite hunting areas and took away what was once yours

What your saying there just doesn't sit well with me for several reasons that I just don't feel like going into. I understand what your trying to say and see the portions of your statements that may have some solidity to it. I just believe someone needed to point out to you that maybe you could find away to state it without sounding so offensive. I hope there will someday come a day when you and others can apply for a California Elk tag. If it wasn't for these programs we wouldn't even as residents be able to apply for such a tag being Elk is not one of California's most prosperous game animals and reality tells me it probably never will be with the rapid people population growths. I could only dream on having a Elk hunt in my own state but when you give up on your dreams is when you cash in your chips and I'm not ready to fold.

You go on stating

FACT!

and I will try not to step on your

mentality

.

I also hope that Arizona hunters as awhole get a fair shake on this issue.

 

[subfan]

Let's remain calm and wait to see what Monday brings. I liked the system the way it was and was fortunate to do a NR elk hunt in AZ. Bonus points should remain so the folks who buy licenses and participate in the draw have a better chance vs. the guy who sits at his PC and applies online w/o buying a license. If anything direct your frustration at USO in a constructive way like his website...

 

[widgnwhacker]

superduty,

The animals in the state of Arizona do belong to the people of Arizona, just as the animals in the state of California belong to the people of California!

Its as easy as this. That is why both states have NON-RESIDENT License and Hunt Permit tag FEES!

Now this is straight from the AZGFD 2004-2005 Hunting and Trapping Regulations.

Non-Resident Hunt Permit Tags

Deer $ 113.50

Antelope $ 304.50

Elk $ 371.00

Turkey $ 55.50

Javelina $ 68.00

Bighorn Sheep $ 920.00

Buffalo Bull $ 3,755.00

Buffalo Cow $ 2,255.00

Buffalo Yearling $ 1,205.00

Bear $ 188.00

Sandhill Crane (2) tags $ 15.00

Pheasant (2) tags $ 5.00

Raptor $ 5.00

Non Permit Tags ( Over The Counter )

Archery Deer $ 108.50

Archery Turkey $ 50.50

Bear $ 183.00

Mountain Lion $183.00

Bobcat $ 2.00

Stamps

Unit 12A $15.00

Migratory Bird Stamp $ 3.00

State Waterfowl Stamp $ 7.50

Now with all things taken in consideration, If you refer to your California 2004-2005 Hunting Regulations you will find that not only are the Arizona Non-Resident Fees fair, you get the liberty to hunt many species that we as Non-Residents of California are not able to and most likely never will be able to hunt. I understand that Arizona is close and easier to draw than some other states. My oldest brother forks out the dough for tags every year and is greatful for the opportunity to be able to hunt in Arizona. I really don't think you see the big picture. Again if you were overrun by NON-Residents on your favorite hunting grounds maybe you would feel the same after living, working , paying taxes and supporting the efforts of your state Fish and Game Dept, only to have the flood gates open and the number of available hunt permit tags drop drastically.

WW

 

[rhaney]

I live in AZ and hunt as much as I can, this whole issue is extremely ugly and couldnt have come with worse timing. I for one am saddened by some of the mob mentality Ive seen on some boards because of it. I understand the reason for anger but pricing the regular guy out of hunting is really just playing into the hand of who brought us this problem in the first place. What we need is a solution to make things better for all, including the nr hunter. I hunt in different states also and enjoy the time I have there. I am a believer in residents having the upper hand in there home state but also being fair to the non res within reason. Im not sure what the answer is but one thing is sure if we dont band together it will only continue to get worse. There is truth in the saying "Safety in numbers" the answer is out there we just need to find it. Good luck to all in the draw.

Ron

 

[DAWG]

The only good thing about the way CA screws the NR is that the hunting sucks here, compared to all surronding states. I couldn't imagine why a nonresident would apply in CA for the draws. I would lower the nonresident prices here and open all draws up to nonresidents here, if I was in charge. I do not think equal nonresident footing is fair, but a 10% cap is obviously stingy enough to get people pissed enough to sue. I think a 20% cap is a reasonable comprimise all around. Would not hurt resident odds too much, yet would keep nonresidents satisfied. I bet if AZ just did that, the mess they are in right now could be avoided. As far as the set aside quota, it is B.S.. Some hunts weoulds get better nonresident draw odds than resident if that happens.

 

[Coues]

I would not be so quick to call all of CA hunting bad. AZ has appx 100,000 deer in the whole state. I think CA has 10X this.

10X more bears too.

 

[schmalts]

I know this will bring up an arguement but there needs to be consideration when the "state owned " elk roam federal land. You are outnumbered as far as federal taxpayers go, and that arguement dont hold water. How would you like it if the federal govt said no one shall brandish any weapon on federal land unless hunting chances are offered to all tax payers. Kind of a little twist now isnt it? And remember this, most federal court judges dont live in AZ and will more than likely be prone to look out for the taxpayer of the federal lands as a whole. Your statement about state owned game holds water only in non-federal land hunts.
It would be like saying the grand canyon park is owned and paid for by the US tax payers and only AZ residents are allowed to look at it because they own the roads needed to drive to it. You cant keep the animals there unless you pay some grazing fees by giving all taxpayers tags?? how about that arguement? There needs to be a balance, only if it is on federal land, and a whole lot of AZ is federal land.

 

[widgnwhacker]

schmalts,

The FEDS do not regulate the Big Game hunts in Arizona. The state Game and Fish Department does. Not USFWS. So the only other land that the big game animals of this state will regulated by is the Indian Nations. And the feds don't have much control over them either. So your lil skittle about the Federal Taxpayers, which all of us are don't mean diddly. There are NWR's within AZ that only allow weapons during the State run hunting seasons already, so Im not sure what your point is? We aren't talking about access to National Parks and or Federal Lands here. We are talking Big Game Permits, and the State run DFG in each state set the rules. What this whole thing boils down to is USO OUTFITTERS and the fact that they are Money Hungry and Greedy

Not sure about your grazing fee deal as well. It ain't gonna happen, it may apply to ranchers that what to run Cattle on these lands but not Game animals..

WW

 

[DAWG]

Numbers, yes you are right. Quality? Because of mismanagement, smaller subspecies, etc, upper end bucks that attract nonresidents are few and far between.

 

[arizona jim]

Letter I sent to USO.


To the management of USO

I have hunted ever since I was 5 years old with my dad. He taught me about hunting ethics, responsibility, and the honor of a hunter. As I have grown older, I have reached a time in my life that I have the means, and have considered hunting with an outfitter in order to have the opportunity to hunt some quality trophy game.

The problem I am having now is a growing disdain for outfitters like yourself. You have the mentality that you have more of a right to the big game hunts in a state than do the residents that live there. Your lawsuit against AZGFD has only caused turmoil in the hunting community. You have caused AZ game & fish to spend precious game management dollars fighting to protect the resident hunters of Arizona.

You advertise that you can provide quality hunts for trophy class animals. These animals are trophy class because of AZGFD's hard work and dedication to manage the game properly. If they have to spend their money fighting selfish and greedy outfitters like yourself they won't have the money to put towards managing and developing quality herds for all of us.

As for me I will never hire an outfitter like yours, and will tell anyone who asks about one, not to hire USO.

Jim Sterne
Phoenix, Arizona

 

[arizona jim]

P.S.

You can e-mail them at

info@huntuso.com

 

[Reuben]

Guys i dont know what the answer to this problem should be.

I do want to make a few points, however, that i feel are important.

1. We as hunters must always remember to stay together. Our sport and numbers are declining every year, and if we are not careful hunting will be done with by 2100.

2. The more restrictions on hunting and gun ownership, the fewer and fewer people get into the sport and it dies out faster.

3. I am for any rules/laws which make hunting and gun ownership easier not more difficult. The more hunters and gun owners we have the better.

4. I agree that game animals on federal lands are as much property of residents as well as non residents. People in Arkansas and New York pay the same federal taxes as us westerners including arizonans.

5. As much as i want to draw tags, and i want all i can draw, its not fair to a New York guy or Rhode Island guy that his state doesnt have Bighorn sheep or Elk. He should have the same access to hunting that i have in the west and that the Arizona guys have.


In summary, i am for access to hunting to preserve our hunting heritage. That is the big picture for me. I want to preserve hunting for everyone. Not just us westerners. This is what is important to me. The older i become, the more important i feel this is.

I want us hunters and gun owners to stick together, come up with reasonably fair solutions, and keep access open to all for the betterment and continuation of hunting. Not limit it to us lucky westerners who were born here by chance. Remember there are waaaayyyy more non hunting citizens in this country and this gap is growing daily. The key is access to this sport, not making it more difficult for people. Lets not price the average guy and his son out of this sport.

 

[sstec]

So according to your statments as follows.........


4. I agree that game animals on federal lands are as much property of residents as well as non residents. People in Arkansas and New York pay the same federal taxes as us westerners including arizonans.

5. As much as i want to draw tags, and i want all i can draw, its not fair to a New York guy or Rhode Island guy that his state doesnt have Bighorn sheep or Elk. He should have the same access to hunting that i have in the west and that the Arizona guys have.

Will YOU be asking Californa Game & Fish to open YOUR state up to non-residents next year for ALL game?

stec

 

[subfan]

How about every JHO member contacting USO and tell them they drew tags for a state the "work" in and ask them for information. Tie them up for a while and cost a little in postage. If they conduct follow up calls, tell them how you feel.

Today's F&G meeting should be under way shortly. We should know something soon.

 

[Reuben]

Originally posted by sstec@Jul 19 2004, 08:53 AM
Will YOU be asking Californa Game & Fish to open YOUR state up to non-residents next year for ALL game?

stec

You read what i wrote. I honestly believe this to be for the betterment of all us hunters. Including your and my grandkids and their grandkids as well.

I knew that one would piss people off, but i included it b/c it provides a fundamental idea to the point that i believe everyone should have access to hunt these animals. Elk hunting should not become some "way out" extreme sport of those who live in Arizona, NM, Montana, or colorado ect. If we do this and continue on this path, then the guys out east who hunt and care about Elk (for example) will eventually die off and the ratio of hunters to non hunters will grow and that is bad for our hunting heritage.

 

[widgnwhacker]

AZJIM,

Right on brother you have hit the nail on the head. It is all about the GREEDof George Taulman and USO OUTFITTERS Not sure how the letter will effect them. Seems they are in a bit of hot water themselves, using aircraft to aid in the harvest of animals on Navajo Land.

So I guess what comes around, goes around

RUEBEN,

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

its not fair to a New York guy or Rhode Island guy that his state doesnt have Bighorn sheep or Elk. He should have the same access to hunting that i have in the west and that the Arizona guys have.[/b]

They do have the same access to hunting in Arizona as every else does, all they have to do is to be willing to pay the Non-Resident fees and be fortunate enough to draw a tag.

You guys in California still don't seem to get it. If any state has a screwed up system look in your own back yard. We as Non-Residents of California, cannot apply for many Big Game hunts in your state. ie ELK Bighorn Sheep Antelope.

So who is calling the kettle black? I have a brother in California and many friends that are more than willing to pay the current Non-Resident fees to be able to have the PRIVELEGE of hunting in Arizona. You guys need to remember that hunting is not a RIGHT.

And give up on the Federal Mobo Jumbo please. The STATES regulate the animals within their respective territories through the appropriate Game and Fish Departments.

WW

 

[Outdoor Writer]

Reuben,

So can we assume that you will be convincing the CA G&FD to open up the tule elk hunting in your state to nonresidents for the betterment of my grandkids?? If so,

to you! I would certainly love to hunt them, and I bet my sons would, too. But see, right now that's not possible. The draw is limited to residents only. -TONY

 

[superduty]

widgnwhacker, Your absolutely right. Now I finally see it through your eyes. It's your state not mine. Hey does anybody know if Arizona has subdivided from the United States? Anyways back to what I was saying before, their Your Elk not anyone elses. And hunting them is a Priveledge I do get. You make an excellent point. You know I have never hunted elk in California nor Arizona but after your persuasive argument I think I better look into that Arizona elk tag. Thanks Man.

But on a serious note like I said in a previous post, I hope they give the hunters of Arizona a fair shake on this and any issue that arises from petty lawsuits such as this one. I'm staying on the side of the family hunter.

 

[widgnwhacker]

Outdoor Writer brings up an excellent point. I would love to harvest a TULE ELK someday, problem is they are in California and Non-Residents cannot hunt them.

State's Tule Elk Herds Running Out of Room
Running Out of Room to Roam
Tule elk population pushing state's limits

Seems that CFGD has a problem with managing their Elk herds. Think they might open up a Non-Resident season to help thin out problem animals that are grazing on Private property? NOT

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

California now has about 3,500 tule elk.

According to the Department of Fish and Game, at least 12 of the herds are causing damage to private property. The department hopes to thin the herds with a new program that allows ranchers to sell permits to hunt the animals on their land.[/b]

OOPPPSS looks like a CANNED HUNT in the making

The Department of Fish and Game hopes that its tule elk management program gives landowners an economic incentive to have the animals on their property. But Guntly, one of 15 ranchers authorized to sell permits to hunt elk on his property, said that income from permit sales -- he sold four last year -- doesn't equal the dollar damage elk do.

The Department of Fish and Game sold 286 elk tags at $277 each for hunting on public land last year; 130 elk were killed. Private landowners sold 100 tags, with 65 elk killed.

Looks like there is a problem there

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Five of the state's tule elk herds are fenced in or penned. The biggest of these, and the closest, is managed by the National Park Service at Point Reyes National Seashore.[/b]

WOW not only does California not allow Non-Resident hunting they promote CANNED HUNTS

I don't know of 1 Elk herd in Arizona that is fenced in

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

The herd of 10 elk introduced to 2,600 acres of pasture at Tomales Point in 1978 now numbers 450. Because some have Johnes disease -- a wasting intestinal disease fatal to livestock -- they can't be moved. So the Park Service has established a herd of 26 selected elk on the other side of the fence in the Limantour area, and they can range free over Point Reyes' 30,000 acres.[/b]

Seems like California has some real problems MANAGING their Elk Herds, maybe they should take some lessons from the AZGFD

WW