Don't expect AZ any time soon

[Reuben]

Originally posted by widgnwhacker@Jul 19 2004, 09:01 AM
RUEBEN,

So who is calling the kettle black? I have a brother in California and many friends that are more than willing to pay the current Non-Resident fees to be able to have the PRIVELEGE of hunting in Arizona. You guys need to remember that hunting is not a RIGHT.

And give up on the Federal Mobo Jumbo please. The STATES regulate the animals within their respective territories through the appropriate Game and Fish Departments.

WW

Whacker, I have only been a Californian for a few years. I am from New Mexico and am in Southern Cal while i finish some training. So i understand and grew up with the same feelings as you and many other Arizonans and New Mexicans who have struggled to get premium tags while out of staters drew year after year. The tag quotas have been a good start to even this discrepancy out, but i think it needs to be tweeked a little now.

I agree that tags should be open to all US taxpayers. Therefore, i agree that all of you should have the opportunity to hunt or at least apply to hunt Elk in California. We actually have very few tags here, so some of your points are almost meaningless b/c calif essentially has very little opportunity to hunt Elk even for Calif residents.


Perhaps i miswrote my feelings. I just dont want the average guy to be priced out of hunting and turn this sport into an elitist sport for those who have unlimited wealth or for those who were, by chance, born in a particular state. That is all i am trying to say.

PS....Whacker, I know that individual states regulate the game animals right now. I have read a couple articles, though, that show that this will be challanged eventually b/c many of these animals are on federal lands. I know you realize, and understand, that states have no say about the Elk and Deer on Native american lands. Even though big Navajo is in the state of Arizona, the state has no relevance with regards to those animals. So dont be surprised when the lawyers bring these issues up with regards to federal lands and opportunity for hunting or commerce with herds on federal lands. This is fact and not my opinion. Also dont misinterpret that i dont want you Arizonans to have a better chance at your tags than me. I feel you should have a better opportunity in your draw. I just dont feel that i should have to pay for an outfitter or pay prices that price that average american out of hunting other states, that's all i am trying to say.

 

[superduty]

widgnwhacker, you should take some of your vast knowledge in these matters to the California Department of Fish and Game. Maybe you could convince them to see it your way with all of your facts of their failure in managing My California Elk population. Who knows, maybe they will feel compeled to offer you a Tule Elk tag. I'm still alittle confused why you have such a hardon for California hunters and the CDFG. If I had the opportunity to hunt with you side by side on this day I would without thinking twice. It would for one give me the opportunity to be out doing what I love and my father and his father and so on. But most importantly it would give me a chance to understand why you point your aggresions at California. Good luck with your quest.

I've decided to leave this topic to the more qualified individuals like yourself and am making this my last post as not to fuel the fire anymore. Good Luck and Appologies to all that I might have offended.

 

[Coues]

Do you REALLY want the Feds managing the hunting in your state? The anti's do. You know why? Because it's a lot easier to convince one federal authority to abolish hunting than it is to convince 50 seperate states.

 

[wmidbrook]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

wmidbrook you can't say it is the same as movie tickets or ski lift tickets because those can be increased at will. They are man made / created. Big game is a natural resource.[/b]

Let's say I own a timber company called Fellemgood. My company is based in CA. I go to AZ and apply to harvest timber in AZ. I pay the same fees as companies based in AZ. Ditto for everything else I can think of except Higher Education--non-resident tuition (which is a farce since kids always switch residency after their first year at school).

I agree that herds of the non-migratory species should be managed at a state level(i.e. tag quotas set at a state level). But, I do think there are situations where the Fed should step in like they do with Interstate freeways, road construction (stings are tied to the over 50% of federal dollars that go into almost all roads from the county level on up to Interstate freeway level).

I think the Fed needs to step in and mandate that quota's and prices cannot be tied to residency with a major proviso--no Robertson, or Pittman fund dollars go to the state if they don't follow the rule--that'd be a big hit to most states wildlife coffers. You'd be suprised by how many federal dollars our state wildlife agencies receive.

As much as I hate to admit it, yes I think Non-CA residents should be able to apply for Tule Elk tags too and they should pay the same price as CA residents for tags.....

Non-residents can hunt Tule Elk in CA if they buy auction tags or PLM tags--price is over $10k for bull tags.

 

[widgnwhacker]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Non-residents can hunt Tule Elk in CA if they buy auction tags or PLM tags--price is over $10k for bull tags.[/b]

ROLMFAO

You show me an average hunter that can fork out that kind of cabbage and I will sell you a Spaceship for $5.00

That is the whole point, this is not about Arizona residents not wanting Non-Residents to be able to hunt in our state. It is about the GREEDY big buck sucking outfitters like USO.

We don't care if you guys come here to hunt. Lets see you bring money into the state, by paying your Non-Resident Fees, Gas, Lodging , Food etc. Now what fool would not want that

I have friends and a brother that pay the dough and come and hunt with me. They don't bitch about the price or the fact that they are limited by the 10% cap on Bull Elk only! They are just happy to be with friends and family hunting together..

You guys just have to understand that we as Residents should get first shot at tags, that some residents have been applying for over 15 years in some cases and have not been able to draw. Hell I would be happy if I could draw a Elk tag in California even if it were a cow tag. But it ain't gonna happen and most likely not in my lifetime.

WW

 

[rhaney]

Just back from game and fish meeting, have all the details.

 

[rhaney]

1st g+f lost there bid for hardship, so here is what is going to happen:
IF you have already been drawn you will get your tag there will not be a complete redraw. G+F has allotted 678 more elk permits which 639 will go to non res, 127 more deer permits of which 117 will go to non res. This will meet the judges requirement for the no 10% cap. I have specifics on units if anyone would like that also for 1st draw all results will be out by 5pm tomorrow, the added permits will be over the next week and you will be notified by phone or other means that really werent specific, email, letter etc.

 

[schmalts]

Wigdnwhacker, What i meant by the grazing thing is just more added reasoning why nonres have a right to hunt the elk in AZ as much as res hunters if they are on federal land. You can argue all you want but if your only point is the elk and deer are state owned and no one else should hunt them you are fighting a losing battle. Cmon man, admit this, If you had some cattle, deer, pigs, donkeys, WHATEVER, and said they belonged to you only, do you think the taxpayers of this country should allow you to graze them on federal land for free? You are saying you want to take ownership of them only if it wont cost you anything. The federal govt charges grazing fees for any private owned animal on federal land and should to help cover costs. Now i am not saying you have less rights to hunt them but i m saying you owe the taxpayers something, be it grazing rights or HUNT PERMITS. Its a 2 way street like it or not, you own the elk but we all own the hunting spot.. And i tell you this, if it goes to court for any matter the taxpayers will win over a state resident. why?? the judge and jury will more than likely not be from AZ. Your views are scewed because you live there but you got to see the reason why the state needs to allow nonres hunters permits.
Now i will admit if there is no federal land in any hunt unit then shut down nonres huters if you choose. Otherwise keep YOUR elk off OUR land. Cant we get along... it sucks but its life. If its so damn hard to get drawn in your state apply for NM,UT,NV,CO. there is plenty hunting for everyone. If your too cheap to buy an out of state tag i have no pity if you dont get to hunt, you know why? states like yours and all around made it too expensive to go anywhere else. AZ needs to give out an aceptable amount of nonres tags at a reasonal price. They had this coming in my opinion, and i have buddies in AZ that admit they agree..

 

[widgnwhacker]

SCHMALTS

Obviously you did not read any of my last post?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

That is the whole point, this is not about Arizona residents not wanting Non-Residents to be able to hunt in our state. It is about the GREEDY big buck sucking outfitters like USO.

We don't care if you guys come here to hunt. Lets see you bring money into the state, by paying your Non-Resident Fees, Gas, Lodging , Food etc. Now what fool would not want that 

I have friends and a brother that pay the dough and come and hunt with me. They don't bitch about the price or the fact that they are limited by the 10% cap on Bull Elk only! They are just happy to be with friends and family hunting together..

You guys just have to understand that we as Residents should get first shot at tags, that some residents have been applying for over 15 years in some cases and have not been able to draw. Hell I would be happy if I could draw a Elk tag in California even if it were a cow tag. But it ain't gonna happen and most likely not in my lifetime.[/b]

We don't care if you come here to hunt! In fact we appreciate your money. I really don't think it will sink in until the day that your prize TULE ELK tags are given away to Non-Residents which ain't never gonna happen, so you will never know what were are talking about.

WW

 

[widgnwhacker]

Oh Yeah,

Im done with this post, It will never register in some of your minds.

Good luck to all of you that draw Arizona Elk Tags

Guess I will take a drive to San Luis or one of the other California Elk preserves and shoot me a nice Bull on film

Later,

WW

 

[Reuben]

Originally posted by widgnwhacker@Jul 19 2004, 01:35 PM
I really don't think it will sink in until the day that your prize TULE ELK tags are given away to Non-Residents which ain't never gonna happen, so you will never know what were are talking about.

WW

Whacker, schmalts is not from california.

He is from Wisconsin.

They probably dont have Tule Elk there. Jesses is no longer a California site. We have people from all over the country posting on Jesses.

I agree with you whacker that outfitters and for money hunting has kind of ruined/or is ruining hunting. It is completely changing everything about big game hunting. I dont know what the solutions are. I think, ultimately, we all just want to enjoy the great outdoors and our beautiful resources.

 

[wmidbrook]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

You show me an average hunter that can fork out that kind of cabbage and I will sell you a Spaceship for $5.00[/b]

You're preachin' to the choir~! That is why I had said in the sentence before that...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

...yes I think Non-CA residents should be able to apply for Tule Elk tags too and they should pay the same price as CA residents for tags[/b]

Ditto for all other huntable species in CA that there is no way for non-residents to hunt via the draw like sheep. I think the CA sheep auction tag went for over $50k to some non-resident.

 

[Outdoor Writer]

Today's ruling:

Judge says Arizona must revise hunt draw process immediately

The Arizona Game and Fish Commission today decided to allocate more hunt permits for bull elk and deer to satisfy a court ruling.
Last week, U.S. District Judge Robert Broomfield threw out Arizona’s 10 percent cap on nonresident hunt permits, saying it violated the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution. Today the judge denied the state’s request for more time to comply with his order, essentially forcing Arizona to retool the hunt draw process.

Following today’s ruling, the choice before the commission was to either throw out the results of this year’s drawing for all elk and deer and re-conduct the draw— or to issue additional permit tags, many of them to nonresidents who may have been shut-out of the first drawing.

The commission chose to allocate an additional 805 hunt permits.

“We had to follow the judge’s order,” says Deputy Director Steve Ferrell, “and we determined that allocating more permits would harm the fewest amount of people without significantly affecting wildlife, either.”

Those hunters already drawn for bull elk or drawn for antlered deer in Hunt Units 12A, 12B, 13A and 13B will receive permits as planned before the court ruling was issued.

In order to accommodate the judge’s order, an additional list of applicants will be assembled, consisting of hunters who had the lowest random numbers issued during the draw process. That list will then be sorted without using the nonresident cap, resulting in an additional 805 hunters who will receive a permit. Although most of the new permits will go to nonresidents, some Arizonans will benefit, too, because some will be for residents who applied to hunt with nonresident friends.

“Given the constraints imposed by the judge, we think this system is the best choice to benefit all Arizona hunters,” says Ferrell. “If we had to conduct the entire draw again, many hunters would not receive their permits in time to adequately plan their trip, and that would affect a lot of people who make their living in hunting-related businesses. And in terms of the effect on wildlife, because only a small number of hunt units are affected, we’ve determined that a one-time increase in permits will not significantly affect wildlife resources.”

The additional permits will affect a relatively small percentage of hunt units—only 42 of 165 elk hunt units, and 9 of 108 deer hunt units.

“Most important,” says Ferrell, “ is that every Arizona hunter who was already drawn this fall will receive a permit. We’re not taking away any permits from residents.”

The delay in the draw process will also cause a slight delay in permit mailings. Hunters selected in the original drawing can check to see whether they’ve been awarded a permit by checking the department Web site, azgfd.com, July 21. Hunters who receive the additional tags will be notified no later than Aug. 10 for hunts that begin in mid-September.

Those hunters who were successful in the original drawing will receive their permits in the mail by July 30, and those who receive one of the additional permits—resident and nonresident—will receive their permits by Aug. 30.

Meantime, the department is poised to release the names of applicants who have been drawn for species not affected by the court ruling: buffalo, bighorn sheep, turkey and antelope. Hunters who put in for those species can learn their status no later than 5 p.m. on July 20.

More than 100 hunters attended today’s commission meeting. More than 270,000 people applied for big game permits for the fall hunt.

Before the close of the meeting today, Game and Fish Director Duane Shroufe thanked his staff for working “12 to 16 hour days since this ruling came down.” He also thanked the Game and Fish Commission for its decisiveness and hunters for their support of the department. Shroufe said this ruling would affect many other states besides Arizona.

The Game and Fish Commission will discuss long-term options to address the court ruling at a meeting to be held in Flagstaff, Aug. 13-14.

 

[schmalts]

Originally posted by widgnwhacker@Jul 19 2004, 01:35 PM
SCHMALTS 

Obviously you did not read any of my last post?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

That is the whole point, this is not about Arizona residents not wanting Non-Residents to be able to hunt in our state. It is about the GREEDY big buck sucking outfitters like USO.

We don't care if you guys come here to hunt. Lets see you bring money into the state, by paying your Non-Resident Fees, Gas, Lodging , Food etc. Now what fool would not want that 

I have friends and a brother that pay the dough and come and hunt with me. They don't bitch about the price or the fact that they are limited by the 10% cap on Bull Elk only! They are just happy to be with friends and family hunting together..

You guys just have to understand that we as Residents should get first shot at tags, that some residents have been applying for over 15 years in some cases and have not been able to draw. Hell I would be happy if I could draw a Elk tag in California even if it were a cow tag. But it ain't gonna happen and most likely not in my lifetime.

We don't care if you come here to hunt! In fact we appreciate your money. I really don't think it will sink in until the day that your prize TULE ELK tags are given away to Non-Residents which ain't never gonna happen, so you will never know what were are talking about.

WW [/b][/quote]
WW I was answering to your question about your confusion by my earlier statement. As far as the rest, it was venting to those who think they own the elk on fed land and only think they have rights to hunt them.
And no I am not from CA, I have hog hunted there though. I hunt as much as i can with limited vacation time, anywhere i can. I think this will open the doors for the Tules elk, like it or not. But you need to see that maybe you just need to change your hunting style and be prepared to hunt in other states.
To tell you the truth i would like to see hunting across the country more available on all public land. I would like to see land owner tags non-tranferable unless 3/4 are given to the public. I would like to see outfitter preference dropped. I would like to see any crop damage tags pulled unless hunting is open to some public. We need to take the welfare out of ranching and the money out of outfitting. Bring hunting back to its roots where a guy can afford to take his kid "out west" hunting, or up north hunting and fishing. If you draw a tag, and want an outfitter or guide get one after you draw. Stop letting outfitters and wealthy ranchers control legislation or we will all see the end to affordable hunting.
I understand your dissapointment in this. It is not as bad as you think. you will lose some opportunity but gain in others(tules elk

). They even said the rule didnt hardly affect the draw accept in unit 10 and 27 for elk. Good luck on the draw.

 

[Coues]

Money grubbing, greedy outfitters - 1
Sound Wildlfe Management - 0

They added more tags (ie more dead elk and mule deer) to appease politics and wildlife whores.

Some people pay upwards of $10,000 for a guarenteed elk tag in AZ.

So, $1,200 should seem like a bargain starting next year.


Hope you're all happy.

 

[subfan]

Anyone had their Credit Card hit yet? Believe it or not, I do not want to draw this year. Especially with the additional tags=more knuckleheads... None of them here at JHO of course

 

[DAWG]

Whatever will be will be. I think anyone has the right to sue if they feel their constitutional rights have been wronged, and federal judges know a lot more about it than us. The guys who formed our government and wrote the constitution were a lot smarter than you think. And as a matter of fact, I have written letters to the DFG suggesting that they make tule elk once in a lifetime and open it up to nonresidents. I think it is B.S. that I know people who have drawn multiple times. The resopnse was that they have bigger fish to fry. And finally, I hope I get a tag. Badly.

 

[Outdoor Writer]

I certainly didn't have my credit card charged. The results are psoted on the AZGFD website now.

Mine were:

DEER - Not Drawn
ANTELOPE - Not Drawn
ELK - Not Drawn
BGHRNSHP - Not Drawn (36 years worth!)
BUFFALO - Not Drawn

So there's NO big game hunting in my own state this year. Oh yeah, my first choice for deer was 12A West - the North Kaibab. Likely, several NRs received some of the EXTRA 805 permits for hunts there. -TONY

 

[Coues]

"The guys who formed our government and wrote the constitution were a lot smarter than you think. "


I agree with you there. Too bad the judges in this country think it's it's their job to make laws instead of interpet them.

 

[Hook]

I truely believe that most of the hunters in Calif. do not support the policy of not allowing out of state hunters to apply for Tule Elk tags.

However, it is the policy of the Calif. Fish & Game that prevents out of state hunters from applying for elk tags. I don't think that any JHO member or any hunter, has an agenda of keeping out of state hunters from applying in Calif. for elk tags.

If USO or any other large outfitter, had a presence in Calif. they would and have the money to try and change the policy. Just as they have in AZ.

Lets not blame the hunters of Calif. for the misguided policies and decisions of the Calif. Fish & Game.

I am glad that this matter has been discussed in a civil manner by everyone.