Elk guns

[snoopdogg]

340Mag, maybe it's just me, but you just might know what the hell you are talking about! Thanks for the good info, that .340 Wtby is a monster round!

 

[340mag]

heres the ballistics on my 340wby , notice it still carrys over a TON of ENERGY at 500 yards with that 250 grain bullet and out to about 350yards a low center chest hold behind the front leg on the cross hairs places the bullet in the heart lung area,and from 350yards-450 yards a cross hair held on the top of the elks shoulder results in a good hit in the same area.
and I bet 99% of the ELK killed in this country with a single shot are well within that (range bracket!)(0-450yards)
range...............fps...energy.........impact point
muzzle... ........2900..4668ft lbs
100 yards.......2699..4045.............3.5" high
200 yards.......2507..3489............3.73" high
300 yards.......2323..2996............1.55 inches low
400 yards.......2147..2559............13.4 low
500 yards.......1979..2179.............32.7 low

now compare that to a 30-06 180 grain load
range...............fps...energy.........impact point
muzzle... ........2700..2913ft lbs
100 yards.......2499..2496.............3.5" high
200 yards.......2307..2127............3.03" high
300 yards.......2123..1802............4.09inches low
400 yards.......1947..1516............18.76 low
500 yards.......1782..1269.............42.7 low
look at the data, a 340wby has more knock-down energy at 500yards than a 30-06 has at 200 yards and more power at 300yards that a 30-06 has at 1 foot/bayonet range!

 

[Cahunter]

I bought a 340 weartherby about 5 years ago and its a great round and rifle. I have shot 2 black bears with it and they went down like they where hit by a truck. Its a fast flat shooting round and they recoil isn't that bad, after about 10 shots and the range you start to feel it. I am taking it to Alaska moose hunting this year. Much better round then the 338 it more versital.

Now I am looking for a 270wsm in there new Ultimate shadow classic. I want a lighter rifle then my 7mag. These new rifles are 63/4 pounds.

 

[COHunter]

What do bullets cost for that .340 Weatherby ?

 

[Cahunter]

you can buy them online, but I got mine at a sporting goods store here in the bay area and they where 52 dollars a box.

 

[340mag]

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/518205

heres what IVE USED on DOZENs of ELK, IN MY RIFLE AND OTHER HUNTERS IN MY CAMPS RIFLES WITH ZERO FAILURES

factory ammo sells for $29-$35 a box, Im still reloading the same 120 cases I bought in about 1967-70

http://www.outdoorguides.com/outdoor/weathr.htm

now the load I use is either h-4831/83grns or imr-4831/80 grns and a 215 federal primer (work up slowly your gun may not like the ammo that warm)
now with powder at about $18 and bullets at about $19 and $2 for primers thats about $ .45 (fourty five cents a shot, for reloads and $1.75 for factory, average 7 reloads a case and thats,$ an average of less than $.62 (sixty two cents a shot) not bad once you realize your whole hunt revolves around making that $1.75new or-$.61 reloads count and since your likely to use only a few cartridges a year actually killing ELK it pays to use the best available!

BTW if the price and recoil bother you theres a sneeky way to get the exact same performance with only one problem (YOU NEED TO BE 150 YARDS CLOSER TO THE ELK TO GET THE SAME PERFORMANCE!!!!)NOT ALL THAT BAD CONSIDERING YOUR STILL ABLE TO BE #)) YARDs FURTHER AWAY THAN A BOW HUNTER!!!! and any ELK within 300 yards is well within the effective range!!
the 35 whelen uses a 250 grain bullet at 2500 fps, the 35 whelen uses a standard action and 30-06 brass and is dirt cheap to reload for!

range...............fps...energy.........impact point
muzzle... ........2900..4668ft lbs
100 yards.......2699..4045.............3.5" high
200 yards.......2507..3489............3.73" high
300 yards.......2323..2996............1.55 inches low
400 yards.......2147..2559............13.4 low
500 yards.......1979..2179.............32.7 low

now compare that to a 30-06 180 grain load
range...............fps...energy.........impact point
muzzle... ........2700..2913ft lbs
100 yards.......2499..2496.............3.5" high
200 yards.......2307..2127............3.03" high
300 yards.......2123..1802............4.09inches low
400 yards.......1947..1516............18.76 low
500 yards.......1782..1269.............42.7 low

now compare that to a 35 whelen 250 grain load
range...............fps...energy.........impact point
muzzle... ........2500..3469ft lbs
100 yards.......2320..2988.............3.5" high
200 yards.......2148..2561............1.88" high
300 yards.......1984..2183............7.2"low
350 yards.......1903..2010............14.76 low

NOTICE THE 35 WHELEN HAS MORE ENERGY AT 300 YARDS than the faster 30-06 has at 200 YARDS and THE WHELEN HITS ABOUT AS HARD AS THE 340 WEATHERBY DOES AT 400 YARD AT TWO HUNDERD YARDS, THE 35 WHELEN IS A GREAT ELK RIFLE WITH A SLIGHT RANGE LIMITATION,COMPARED TO THE 340WBY ,BUT ONCE YOU REALIZE THAT MOST ELK KILLED IN THE TIMBER ARE SELDOM SHOT AT OVER 250 YARDS AND 50 YARDS to 150 YARDS IS MUCH MORE COMMON A 35 WHELEN STARTS LOOKING LIKE A GOOD OPTION!

 

[Dave in LB]

340WBY MAG- Thanks for all the great info. I think that I gave the impression that I'm recoil sensitive in my later post. ANd maybe that's true to a small extent. I put 90 full power 308 rounds through my scout rifle one day and that so far has been worse and more unpleasant than any of the shooting of the guide gun as it is more of a push than a punch. the worst for me was one shot out of a 460WBY when I flinched ever so slightly and it bruised the web of my shoulder quite well. My question was mainly centered on from the bench and in that case the past recoil pad would be a good thing for extended sessions. thanks again for the heads up on the 340WBY

 

[wmidbrook]

That is good info 340Mag.

Here's a slightly different take and thought some of you might be interested in it: The Medium Velocity Heavy Bullet Approach to Accuracy and Effectiveness


Anyway, I'm in the process of building a single shot rifle (encore) and might one day buy a 338/06 barrel for it specifically for elk. But, I still think my 30-06 is adequet for the types of shots I take.

 

[COHunter]

I had a friend, that used to be a big time Poacher here until he got caught and had to pay a $12,000 fine.
His caliber of choice for Deer & Elk was a .22 Mag
Now if you got the money and the shoulder for those big Weatherby's, go for it, but you dont really need it. Most Elk out here are taken with a 30/06, .7mm Mag and .300 Win Mags and pretty much in that order.
All three have plenty of Gas to take down an Elk out to 300 yards. I bet more Elk are lost because of folks with those big calibers thinking they can make an accurate shot out to 500+ yards than any other reason.

 

[Spitzer]

I like the .338Mag. I've loaded 225gr. Speer BT to just over 2900fps. With a BC of .484, that's a flat shooter. I normally use 225gr Hornady SP though going 2900fps.

The difference between the .338WM and the .340Weatherby is something the animals on the recieving end wouldn't notice. 100fps or so is all. They use the same bullets. All that in a shorter cartridge, less powder, and more efficient design. Whatever I hit with the .338WM dies, no such a thing as wounded, or tracking hit animals.

 

[340mag]

COHunter
I totally agree that you can effectively "kill ELK with smaller cartridges than the 340 mag," and that many people can,t handle the larger cartridges and have said so above! quote....

"I started with a 30-06 but even with perfect shot placement and premium bullets ........ now they were all good kills"

"Id be the first guy to say your better off with a 30-06 you shoot well than a 338win mag you flinch with,"

"BUT ONCE YOU REALIZE THAT MOST ELK KILLED IN THE TIMBER ARE SELDOM SHOT AT OVER 250 YARDS ...........A 35 WHELEN STARTS LOOKING LIKE A GOOD OPTION!"

Ive never even hinted that you can,t KILL ELK with a 30-06 class rifle WHAT I DID SAY IS THAT WITH THE CORRECT SHOT PLACEMENT, THE LARGER CARTRIDGES IN THE HANDS OF A GOOD SHOT TEND TO DROP ELK FASTER AND LEAVE MORE MASSIVE BLOOD TRAILS DUE TO MUCH MORE FREQUENT EXIT WOUNDS , IVE ALSO SAID THAT GETTING INTO ARCHERY RANGE IF POSSIABLE IS PREFERED EVEN WITH THE BIGGER CARTRIDGES,
I HAVE SEEN DOZENS OF ELK SHOT AND DRESSED OUT EVEN MORE THAN THAT AND THERES NO DOUBT THAT BOTH KILL WELL BUT THE LARGER RIFLES TEND TO PRODUCE DEEPER WOUNDS THAT EXIT MORE OFTEN, AND IN THE HANDS OF A GOOD SHOT TEND TO DROP ELK FASTER. I SELDOM SHOOT ELK AT OVER 250 YARDS(MOST UNDER 150 YARDS) I PREFER THE 340WBY,35 WHELEN,AND 375 h&h ON ELK SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY WORK FLAWLESSLY FOR THAT USE, UNLIKE MY EXPERIANCE WITH THE 30-06/270 CLASS OF CARTRIDGES
elk are not bullet proof and even a 22 long rifle will "KILL" but a ELK shot with a 22LR is on average going to travel much further than one shot with a 340 wby, and your buddy that was Poaching was much more concerned with someone hearing the shot than where the elk dropped or if the elk took 200 yards to drop

READ THIS (DON,T FORGET THE SUB LINKS)
http://www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere/ballist.../mechanics.html

its well done and quite accurate most of the time

btw
shot placement,bullet construction and bullet weight all have more effect than a few hundred fps of bullet speed (within reasonable limits of course) but anyone that thinks you can,t kill ELK effectively with a 44 mag carbine that has only about 800ft lbs of energy at 50 yards is in for a big shock, no its not ideal but I could keep well fed with a marlin carbine if necessary, that does not in any way make the 44mag carbine a good ELK RIFLE CHOICE!

 

[340mag]

--heres good examples of why I trust the 340 weatherby mag with that 250 grain bullet-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was still hunting a steep slope of mixed aspen and conifer for about 3 hours when I spotted several shadows that just did not look quite correct under the low branches of the conifers on the slope on the far side of the canyon,I kept moving very slowly untill I had placed a large douglas spruce between myself and those trees on the opposite slope, I stoped and while totally hidden in the shadows and branches I carefully used the 10X Swarovski binocs to glass the branches, after about 2 minutes it became clear that I was looking at several ELK bedded under the branchs (range about 210 yards), I dropped the Swarovski,s slowly and ever so slowly got my 340 weatherby ready. the angles ment this would be an off hand shot while I was leaning against an aspen tree to get the best possible steady rifle support. the ELK sensed something was wrong when I failed to keep moving at a stead pace. they were now up on their feet and slowly sneaking away. as I raised the rifle they picked up the pace to a fast walk, I brought the cross hairs up in the front edge of the bulls shoulder about 1/3rd of the way up and as his shoulder started to swing forward across the vertical ,I squeezed off the shot, INSTANT RUNNING ELK EVERYWARE, BUT NONE SEEMED HIT! I watched a 6" dia, aspen that was right where my bull stood.with a huge splintered area .. slowly fall,... cut clean off at about 3 feet from the ground, "could I have hit that STUPID TREE?"
I walked over to that far slope,as I walked over and over I replayed the scope picture in my mind!!I did not remember a tree in the sight picture!
once I reached the freshly cut down aspen I noticed blood all over the entrance side of the bullet damaged tree!
MAYBE IT WAS A GOOD HIT AFTER ALL?
looking around I saw antlers 20 yards down slope, further investigation showed the 250 grain hornady had instantly dropped the ELK and passed through the ELK cutting the tree down as it continued into the slope behind! my 4x4 bull had dropped so fast that Id lost it in the recoil and the running herd of moving ELK. If the tree had not fallen I might have thought that Id missed as the BULL Id hit fell so fast that I failed to see him fall, as I brought the gun back in line for a backup shot. some people seeing the tree fall would have assumed they hit the tree and missed the ELK! only the fact that Ive made it a HABIT to find out where every shot went if possiable, and the fact that I have learned to trust the 340 weatherby power and accuracy lead me to think that even if the tree did get in the way there was a good chance the ELK would still be killed.

---EXAMPLE TWO-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really take pride in precise shot placement, I try to get as close as I can before firing as a personal thing about how I hunt.Im only about 27 years old at this time, and my partners an old guy of 58 years whos teaching me the fine points of elk hunting!
well this one day we have walked into a series of deep canyons and Im hunting ELK and MULE DEER in colorado, this has been a hard hunt so far as its snowed hard for two days, the snow is about 14"-18" deep under the trees but the day has warmed and its only about 10"-12" deep where the sun can melt it. I found a large rockslide and have positioned myself about 180 yards away from and 60 yards higher up the slope from a seep/wallow in the caynon floor that has lots of fresh tracks in the snow and mostly frozen mud around it,(id love to be closer but theres just no closer spot with a good view) Im hopeing for a good bull to appear. after watching several deer and two cow elk but no bulls drink from the tiny stream Ive almost fallen asleep waiting while my partner and I watch the seep/wallow, he nudges me and wispers " movement", instantly Im awake and in 2 seconds I spot a herd of 6 deer on the far canyon slope, the range finder says 550 yards,(way out of range for his 35 whelen and my 340 weatherby mag) but we continue to watch and they work closer slowly, when they get into about 450 yards I carefully fold out the harris bypod and use the field glasses, the buck has very heavy horns and about a 28"-29" 4 point western rack, we still have 6 days left to hunt so Im not all that sure I want to drop him and altho by this time its not going to be all that hard I just continue to watch, my partner is going nuts! he swears its a 33"-34" spread.
the buck and does settle down at about 370 yards and bed in knee high grass in the fringe of some aspen. my partner says over and over to me. "take the buck !its the best your likely to see! this is ELK not DEER country!"
starting to think hes correct , I agree that we will wait till dusk, if the deers still there Ill try and drop him if weve seen no ELK bulls by then. well come about 4pm the deer stands up to leave and my partner says "KID, ITS NOW OR NEVER!" I get into a sitting position wrap the sling in tight and steady the bypod, the 340s sighted in at 270 yards and I have a chart taped to the stock that says 350 yards -8" so I figure the bullets going to be about 11" low on impact. I place the horizontal cross hairs on the bucks back line and slowly squezze off the shot, all the does run but the buck just stands there, I can,t believe I missed and stroke the bolt loading a second round, just as Im starting to get a second sight picture the bucks hind quarters and front legs fold suddenly and he rolls 30 feet down the slope, behind him is a pink spray. I unload the rifle and start walking to the buck, as soon as Im slightly down the slope I can,t see the buck. my partner says no problem, "I know where he fell, you pack up our stuff and Ill go drag him down to the canyon floor!"
well 10 minutes later he returns saying "I must have missed" no buck! YEAH RIGHT! but after 15 minutes of searching I can,t find it either? well after 30 minutes he decides the jokes getting old and shows me a huge heavy horned buck that he has hidden under a bunch of snow and branches(well at least he got a good laugh)and I found I could hit effectively at that range. BTW it was a 4x5 29" spread)

 

[wmidbrook]

Well, thanks for the link 340mag.

I explored the author's site this a.m. A lot of links are dead on his page but you can explore other info/studies and his trips to Africa & Alaska by clicking on any link ending in xxx.html here .

What I got from it boiled down to:
--Placement to the thorax (boiler room) counts most
--Any cal./bullet that creates a half inch hole or better with good penetration will do the trick
--Nosler Partitions are great, proven bullets but North Fork's could be better--might have to try them
--He references the great penetration of Barnes XLC and the like but uses Nosler Partitions himself (the author studys bullets under military contract) on his hunts--actions speak louder than words
--He asserts that there's a TON of misinformation published in our hunting/guns/ammo magazines that have no scientific basis (strongly agree with him here)
--He references a study on deer where suprisingly a .25 cal resulted in more 1-stop-shot kills (dropped in their tracks kill) than a .243, 7mm, or .30 cal.
--Also voices his opinion on how the .243 isn't 'enough gun' for a quick kill on deer (references how he had to wait a minute+ for a deer to die from a shot to the boiler room using 100 gr Nosler Partion...I experieced the same with a .243 Core-lok with 2 shots to the boiler-room on a sitka blacktail. But, I've also taken those little deer effectively with a .222 and for whatever reason, they expired quicker.
--He loves the .340 Wby mag -- who knows maybe it's the 'silver bullet' for elk sized game based on terminal performance

Here's a letter in response to an article published in Rifle Shooter that pretty much sums up his opinion:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

At work I use a $ 25,000 Silicon Graphics workstation to perform hydrocode calculations of terminal performance for military applications. Even with this computing power runs require several days to complete in many cases. And they are not nearly as complex as the problem of a hunting bullet striking a game animal! The complexities of that problem are truly daunting. Bullets are manufactured from multiple materials and have variable material properties from tip to base.

But the real problem is the target itself. Even if I am successful in making a simplified version of the analytical solutions to penetration and cavity formation by a projectile which will run on a PC, it will never tell you if the game drops in its tracks or runs for 200 yds. That determination is beyond knowing because it depends upon the animal. Identical wounds by identical weapons will create different responses in different animals.

Now the good news is that I think I will eventually be able to provide a tool which will describe the dimensions of the hole (hopefully even through major bones). In general though, any hole 1/2 inch in diameter through the thorax will kill, so this information is not terribly valuable. Again, a bigger hole will increase the probability that an animal will fall quickly, but it guarantees nothing. I've seen deer with their heart blown entirely away run over 100 yds. On the other hand, who really cares if it falls instantly or in 10 seconds?

I pride myself with the fact that every deer I have killed (with a rifle, as opposed to a shotgun) dropped instantly. But my success as a hunter would not be diminished if they ran 50 or 100 yds. Even a poorly performing bullet when placed properly will kill with dispatch. I think part of the current interest stems from the fact that American shooters always want "bigger and faster" regardless of whether they need it or can handle it. Few shooters are decent marksmen and they think that the problem is a lack of "stopping power".[/b]

Basically, I'd stick to the .270 on up for Elk because there's so much personal experience published that they do the job intended to do--provide a humane, quick kill on Elk.

When a bullet doesn't connect with the boiler room is where there will be added advantages to having a heavier caliber IMO. IMO, all these magazines don't place enough emphasis on actual target practice to enable the boiler room shots. Too many pages are wasted praising the magnum caliber ballistics when in reality 95+% of the hunters out there have no business taking shots at distances where using a magnum caliber makes much of a difference between a wounded or dead animal. The North Caroline DNR deer study basically debunks the myth that bigger calibers result in 'dropped it in its tracks kills'. And toting a magnum doesn't justify consistently badly placed shots.

Hey, even if no one reads this, it's help me further my own understanding (biased-of course

) . Again, that was a thought-provoking link, thanks again for posting it.

Dang can't wait for 'elk-with-wings' season to open in a less than 2 weeks. Enough of guns/ammo etc., ....am ready to hunt somethin!

 

[Spitzer]

That's funny, I've dropped many deer "in it's tracks" with my .338WM. I guess I must have been seeing things.

 

[340mag]

Originally posted by Spitzer@Mar 20 2003, 08:10 PM
That's funny, I've dropped many deer "in it's tracks" with my .338WM. I guess I must have been seeing things.

THE ONLY DIFFERANCE I CAN SEE BETWEEN A 338 win and a 340 weatherby is that the win mag is cheaper to shoot and more efficient on the amount of powder you burn and that youll need to get about 50 yards closer before firing to get identical performace to the 340 wby. now considering that most of the ELK are shot well inside both cartridges effective range I doubt one out of a hundred ELK would show any differance in results provided you use the same 250 grain hornadys I use and place your shots exactly the same. the only reason I prefer the weatherby over the win mag is I like how fast I can work that 60 degree bolt throw on that mark V weatherby action (not a big deal in that a second shots rarely needed) and that extra 150-200 fps in bullet speed gives me a little extra edge, that admittedly Ive never needed, in range. I own several 340 mag rifles and Im not about to change a winning combo but a synthetic stock stainless 338 in a SAKO with slicked up action would work every bit as well Im sure!

heres some other info

http://www.rifleshooter.com/Project%20guns...by_imp_text.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/338Rem_340Wby.htm

http://www.inextinc.com/H1000340%20Loading%20Data.pdf

 

[SDHNTR]

Weatherby also makes a .338 wm in the standard Mark V with the 54 degree bolt throw. Sounds like winner to me!

 

[wmidbrook]

I'm pretty convinced a .35 Wheelen, .338 WM or 340 Wby is great medicine on a Elk--never disagreed with that. Thanks for the link on Hornady Ballistics the VVCG barrel.

Even though I can effectively shoot a .338 or .50 or whatever, anything from a 7mm Mag on up, I don't find 'a joy' to shoot. But, I do like what they can do. I think they're more likely to put elk-sized game down in their tracks than a .270 or .30-06. But any shot into the boiler room from a .270 on up with a good bullet will result in dead elk that doesn't make it further than a few hundred yards from where it was shot.

Having volunteered as a range master at 3 different ranges, it amazes me how many people show up for their annual visit to the range to warm up the weekend before deer or elk season . Most of 'em shoot 6" - 10" groups @ 100 yds regardless of caliber. I've seen more folks flinch wildly when I suggest they try dry-firing their magnums than when they're using 'standard' calibers.

If someone doesn't have the time to put in range work, I'd suggest they get a versatile 30 cal. in 308 or 30-06 rather than running with a magnum. They'd be a lot more likely to become a competant shooter faster.

Treat yourself to a magnum after you can consistently shoot better than a 2" group with a rest at 100 yd so that you can get the most of out it.

If you get one before that, you'll slow down improving your marksmanship IMO. And some people even set-back their marksmanship by developing flinches if they start shooting only magnums for practice.

 

[Spitzer]

My .338WM Browning Stainless Stalker A-Bolt has a 60 degree bolt, top tang safety, synthetic stock (free floated barrel), and a detachable magazine. All the best combinations for an all weather hunting rifle.

I load a 225gr. Hornady SP going 2900+fps. Also a 225gr. Speer BT going 2940fps, with a BC of .484. ( flat shooter)

I can't wait for Hornady's new "Interbond" bullet in a 225gr., .338 cal. The BC should be very high, and hopefully it stays together better than most BT's do.

 

[wmidbrook]

Here's a great article from Accurate Rifle about hunting rifles & calibers:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

BY: BOB JOURDAN  
When we arrived on the scene the hunters were diligently heaving on a rope leading out into a pond to a very dead five point bull elk. Somehow that elk had managed to splash out into the middle of the pond to cash in his chips. We stopped long enough to visit from the truck window with one of the hunters and to see the successful retrieval of the big bull…and to observe his much shot-up condition. The hunter commented on just how much lead a big bull can absorb, and that had they not been using .300 Winchester Magnums and .338s, the bull might have escaped. It took six or eight hits to end him, but in his last moments of flight he had blindly charged off into the pond. Of those hits, the hunter assured us that at least four or five were right through the heart-lung area…even though we could plainly see bloody wounds in the hip, flank, side, one leg and perhaps one in the chest. With that, we moved on our way.

In our many years of hunting in the mountains we've always enjoyed visiting the hunter camps, especially when game was hanging from the meat poles. The excited stories told by the various hunters were interesting, running all the way from how they made the kill at ridiculously long range to knocking the buck down at less than 25 yards. And most of them were always happy to bring out their favorite firearms to show off. They, too, ran the gamut from beautiful custom instruments that would be much more at home under glass and lights, to plain-Jane lever actions that were modern back at the end of the nineteenth century. Calibers ranged across the spectrum from six millimeter, as small as little wildcats based on something like the .222 Magnum, up to stovepipe calibers of .444 Marlin, .45-70, .375 H&H Magnum, and more often the .300 Winchester Magnum and .338 Winchester Magnum mentioned above. The game hanging from the racks showed everything from clean kills to those that were shot all over and looked like hamburger. We found that invariably the clean kills were made with relatively small calibers and the hamburger kills came from belted magnums and stovepipe bores. It was rather obvious that shooters ranged from good to bad, but it always seemed there was a definite correlation between bad shooters and big cartridges. This did not necessarily mean that those who used medium to small cartridges were always good shots, but it sure did show that correlation, too. And our friends back at the water pond were more evidence of the big cartridge, bad shooter scenario.

We knew, even back a half-century ago, that recoil bothered our shooting but we really did not want anyone to know. We tried to keep our targets showing groups of less than two inches, and any that were larger we simply blamed on the wind or the cartridges or the firearms, or even the good old military excuse of 'calling' our bad shots. Trouble with this system was that all too often the 'called' bad shot landed right in the middle of the group! But with time we also began noticing that we shot better with milder cartridges. Many writers of those long ago days tried to tell us that smaller cartridges were simply inherently accurate, whatever that means. They hardly ever admitted to the milder recoil being partly to blame for the better accuracy. The first big game rifle I personally came up with was a .270 Winchester, by default. I had wanted a .257 Roberts as recommended by my knowledgeable dad, but when talking with the druggist who ordered it he thought something bigger would be a better choice in the event that we could not get the .257. Thus, the .270 arrived with a note stating that if we did not want it, simply return it. Being a young fellow back then, a new rifle in hand was worth much more than one in the future. I kept the Remington Model 760 pump in .270 caliber.

The move from a rimfire .22 directly to the .270 was abrupt and interesting. From that very first shot with the poorly stocked and rather hard kicking .270, I picked up quite a healthy flinch. During those first few years there were times when there would be a misfire and I would nearly jump off the bench. The flinch was severe. But since that was my only rifle, I did the best I could with it. By the time the new left-hand Savage bolt action rifles came out in .243 Winchester caliber, I knew I should have one to test what all big-time writers had been saying, that recoil of the .243 was insignificant. The day that new Savage arrived I headed straight to the range with a fresh box of Savage factory ammunition…and found that all writers must be misinformed. That little rifle did produce recoil, although it was considerably less than that of my .270. The well developed flinch did not go away, even though shooting became a bit more enjoyable.

Since I had both the great .270 as well as the mild .243, I alternated their use on deer for the next few years. And that is when we started discovering that bullet placement was somewhat better with the milder cartridge and deer hit with it gave up the ghost just as quickly, if not quicker, than when hit by the great .270. But we still noted that a deer hit in the leg, flank, paunch, etc., was hard to kill with either cartridge and required additional shots. Conversely, deer hit correctly with either cartridge were equally easy to bring down.

As the years passed, I became more interested in pure accuracy and entered the benchrest game where the ultimate goal is to place five consecutive shots into one hole no larger than one bullet diameter. The shooting technique for this blew me away. Even though I thought I could shoot reasonably well, and better than most of my hunting friends, I could not keep five shots anywhere near one hole even with a fine benchrest rifle. My learning to really shoot had just begun. It was here that I learned what the least bit of rifle movement before the bullet left the muzzle would do on the target. With these more or less exotic benchrest rifles and their temperamental firing systems, at least from the beginner's standpoint, there were misfires. And again the well learned flinch really showed up. With these heavy bench guns and their small 6mm PPC or BR cartridges the recoil was very mild and of almost no damaging consequence. Before long I found that flinching could be completely eliminated, and from that point on I knew my big game shooting would improve as I finally knew the details and saw the consequences of flinching.

My visits to the local shooting range soon verified, again, that hunters shooting the larger calibers shot the worst. And on a few occasions hunters would let me load their rifles and hand them back for the next shot. Sometimes I would hand back an empty rifle. At the fall of the firing pin the hunter would nearly jump off the bench. The embarrassment was severe…some never allowed me to load for them again. But during this time I was rather pleased with my own rifle shooting improvement and when a misfire would occur the crosshair commonly would not move. I knew my learning curve was near complete, my flinching was somewhat understood and under control, and my placement in benchrest competition was moving up.

This education, plus some common aging, was changing my ideas about big game shooting. No longer did I jump a buck out of the rocks and start blazing away as in the past. I became a much more careful sight holder and trigger controller. And I even discovered that I was finding more bucks still bedded instead of off and running. Without my famous past flinching, I could now make killing shots on standing game at very long ranges as compared to those commonly missed in years gone by. By becoming much more aware of the effects of recoil, I started using different calibers that were milder, especially those like the .250 Savage, .250 Ackley Improved, 6.5x55 Swedish, etc. And they were wonderful killers in the game field…without brutal recoil. I soon sold all my big belted bombers, giving up things like the 7mm Remington Magnum, .264 Winchester Magnum, .300 Weatherby Magnum, along with my last .30-06, the caliber that seemed to be the dividing line for recoil tolerance.

Recoil becomes a factor in shooting due to the sheer energy, in foot-pounds, of the sudden kick, plus the psychological effects of muzzle blast. When shooting two rifles of the same weight and using the same cartridge but different barrel lengths, it is common for shooters to think the one with the shorter barrel kicks harder. Actually the short barrel simply increases the muzzle blast. There have been a number of examples of this when a factory model with a very short barrel does not sell well, and yet another with a longer barrel and the same weight sells very well. The difference is the perceived blast and not necessarily the sheer recoil. Another factor in recoil is the fit of the stock. If the stock has too much drop at the comb and heel, the rifle will recoil back as well as up and smack the shooter across the jaw, leaving him with a toothache or black eye the following day. A straighter stock with very little drop will send the recoil straight back, and if the stock comb is slightly lower than the heel, the shooter's face will be saved. This greatly reduces perceived recoil, even though the recoil energy is the same. When we add heavy calibers to shorter barrels and poorly designed stocks, it is very easy to develop a severe flinch. And we should add that the flinch occurs so quickly that the shooter will deny flinching, every time. It is only when he has a misfire at the bench that he visibly jumps when the firing pin falls. Sometimes this brings him around to admitting to a flinch…. But the story that I love best is from the hunter-shooter that has just demonstrated his wild flinch at the shooting bench, but says he never flinches when shooting at game in the field!

Recoil Chart 1: Mild Recoil Cartridges In 8-Pound Rifles

1. .223 Rem., 55 gr., 3240 fps, 26 grs. powder 3.6 ft/lbs
2. .22-250 Rem., 55 gr., 3680 fps, 38 grs. powder 5.8 ft/lbs
3. .25-35 Win., 117 gr., 2230 fps, 28 grs. powder 6.1 ft/lbs
4. .250 Sav., 100 gr., 2820 fps, 36 grs. powder 8.1 ft/lbs
5. .257 Roberts, 120 gr., 2650 fps, 36 grs. powder 9.4 ft/lbs
6. .243 Win., 100 gr., 2960 fps, 45 grs. powder 10.2 ft/lbs
7. .30-30, 150 gr., 2390 fps, 35 grs. powder 10.8 ft/lbs
8. .30-30, 150 gr., 2390 fps, 35 grs. powder 14.4 ft/lbs 6# rifle
9. 6.5x55 Swedish, 140 gr., 2550 fps, 42 grs. powder 12.2 ft/lbs
10. .257 Robt. Lt. Mag., 120 gr., 2940 fps, 45 grs. powder 12.6 ft/lbs
11. .260 Rem., 120 gr., 2890 fps, 46 grs. powder 12.6 ft/lbs


It is often stated that a certain caliber has negligible recoil. This may be a subjective statement from one who is numb and immune to certain punishment. Most shooters who have made a serious study of shooting seem to agree that damaging recoil always starts showing on average shooters long before reaching recoil levels of the .30-06. The .30-06 seems to be considered the breaking point in recoil tolerance simply because so many fellows were militarily trained with that caliber in the past. The difference now is that they are no longer shooting a 10-pound, gas operated rifle where the recoil is reduced by perhaps 25%. In the sporting world that .30-06 is often a bolt action that weighs a couple of pounds less. The recoil then becomes formidable and must be reckoned with

When we go back in history we find much praise was constantly being poured on such cartridges as the .25-35, .30-30, .250 Savage, .257 Roberts, .256 Newton, 7x57 Mauser, .35 Remington and a few others being used in the big game hunting fields. The .300 Savage was considered a rather heavy hitter, and most country folks simply shuddered when the .30-06 or .270 was mentioned. They all thoroughly understood the correlation between accuracy and recoil, and simply did not have time to waste trying to learn to handle heavy recoil when there was no need to do so. They understood that the most important thing in taking down a big buck or bull was to place the bullet properly. And they knew that if they had to worry about being whacked in the jaw by recoil they could not concentrate very well on placing their shot properly. These were experienced shooters who shot big game for meat on the table. They shot varmints to protect their livelihood. They did not read the latest shooting journals or hang out in the local sporting goods shop, and were very hard to change in their ideas of cartridges for use on game. When the mad magnum craze started after World War II, these fellows stayed in the background and continued taking game with their easy handling rifles and cartridges. Today they are a vanishing breed, and many of their fine cartridges are being relegated to obsolescence, or very near so.

Today's shooters and hunters need to look back, take a lesson from the past, leave the larger, harder to manage cartridges to others, to experimenters and developers who have to try big boomers, and to the very few who may tolerate being beat on by heavy recoil. To become an effective shooter one has to avoid flinching, and that is best done by using milder cartridges. Recoil tolerance does end at some point for every shooter, and the majority seem to find that level somewhere less than about 15 foot-pounds (ft/lbs), and are in trouble for sure when they reach 20 ft/lbs. Examples include those mentioned above when used in eight pound rifles starting with perhaps the minimum deer cartridge, the .25-35 Winchester with only 6.1 ft/lbs of recoil, the .250 Savage with about 8.1 ft/lbs and on to the .300 Savage with about 13.9 ft/lbs. The modern 7mm-08 Remington produces 14.8 ft/lbs compared to the famous 7mm old-timer, the 7x57 Mauser, with 13.7 ft/lbs, close to the newer .260 Remington at 13.9. The .260 is a 6.5mm and often compared with the fine 6.5x55 Swedish with 12.2 ft/lbs of recoil. When rifle weight is lowered to that of the Winchester M94, the .30-30 delivers about 14.4 ft/lbs of recoil, and many shooters will tell you about being kicked rather badly by that good old .30-30. When the .30-30 is loaded in an eight-pound rifle, the recoil drops to only 10.8 ft/lbs. One of today's darlings, the .243 Winchester, shows about 10.2 ft/lbs of recoil, somewhat more than that found in the .257 Roberts at only 9.4 ft/lbs.

Recoil Chart 2: Tolerable Recoil Cartridges In 8-Pound Rifles

1. .25-06 Rem., 100 gr., 3230 fps, 55 grs. powder 13.4 ft/lbs
2. 7mmx57 Mauser, 140 gr., 2660 fps, 46 grs. powder 13.7 ft/lbs
3. .260 Rem., 140 gr., 2750 fps, 44 grs. powder 13.9 ft/lbs
4. .300 Sav., 150 gr., 2630 fps, 42 grs. powder 13.9 ft/lbs
5. 7mm-08 Rem., 140 gr., 2860 fps, 45 grs. powder 14.8 ft/lbs
6. .308 Win., 150 gr., 2820 fps, 46 grs. powder 16.2 ft/lbs
7. .270 Win., 130 gr., 3060 fps, 58 grs. powder 17.8 ft/lbs
8. .30-06, 150 gr., 2910 fps, 55 grs. powder 19.1 ft/lbs
9. .270 WSM, 130 gr., 3300 fps, 66 grs. powder 21.6 ft/lbs
10. 7mm Rem. Mag., 150 gr., 3110 fps, 65 grs. powder 23.6 ft/lbs
11. 7mm RSAUM, 150 gr., 3075 fps, 59 grs. powder 23.6 ft/lbs


The running gun-battle between believers in the .30-06 and those of the .270 generally find that there is a slight accuracy difference in favor of the .270. One reason is that factory barrels are cut to the same exterior contour and the one with the smaller bore will of course have thicker sidewalls making it stiffer and therefore more accurate. But the other reason is the 7% lighter recoil of the .270. This is noticeable by every shooter and often leads to better gun handling and better accuracy. Both calibers offer more recoil than average shooters can readily handle, with the .270 producing 17.8 ft/lbs and the .30-06 about 19.1 ft/lbs. Both calibers can be handled by a number of shooters, provided they practice a great deal and stay very conscious of flinching. When they can sit calmly and steadily through a misfire on the bench, they will know they are handling the calibers satisfactorily. But once a flinch is developed, it is difficult to get rid of. The quickest cure recommended by many is to drop back to a very light caliber, even the .22 rimfire, and start over. Have your shooting partner do the loading and hand the rifle back to you, leaving it empty once in a while. If you snap the occasional empty chamber without moving, you are on your way to a cure.

We often read about the effects of recoil, but usually do not have access to recoil charts. It seems that recoil can be calculated in several ways, but all give the same relationship from one cartridge to another. The variance among different methods is not more than about 10%. Therefore, the difference you might find between the charts shown and charts you might calculate are the result of the methods used. The charts used in this article are based on eight pound rifles and are divided into three groups. The first shows a number of mild cartridges with recoil less than 13 ft/lbs. The second chart moves on from 13 ft/lbs to cover cartridges with less than 25 ft/lbs. These are cartridges that surely divide shooters, some handling them okay, while most shooters will flinch to some degree. The last chart shows cartridges with 25 ft/lbs recoil to something you might not want to know about. Very few shooters can use these cartridges and maintain good accuracy. In the heaviest recoiling group, several different rifle weights are used to show the effects of adding gun weight to reduce that brutal recoil. Where do you think you might fit in?

Recoil Chart 3: Heavy Recoil Cartridges In 8-Pound Rifles

1. .300 RSAUM, 150 gr., 3220 fps, 65 grs. powder 24.6 ft/lbs
2. .300 WSM, 150 gr., 3275 fps, 66 grs. powder 25.4 ft/lbs
3. .300 Win. Mag., 150 gr., 3290 fps, 75 grs. powder 28.4 ft/lbs
4. .375 H&H, 270 gr., 2670 fps, 77 grs. powder 46.4 ft/lbs
5. .458 Win-Mag., 450 gr., 2150 fps, 73 grs. powder 68.0 ft/lbs
6. .416 Rem-Mag., 400 gr., 2400 fps, 85 grs. powder 73.2 ft/lbs
7. .378 Wby-Mag., 300 gr., 2950 fps, 114 grs. powder 80.0 ft/lbs
8. .460 Wby-Mag., 500 gr., 2530 fps, 116 grs. powder 129.8 ft/lbs, 8# rifle
9. .460 Wby-Mag., (same as above) 86.5 ft/lbs, 12# rifle
10. .50 BMG, 750 gr., 2800 fps, 233 grs. powder 404.4 ft/lbs, 8# rifle
11. .50 BMG, (same as above) 202.2 ft/lbs, 16# rifle
12. .50 BMG, (same as above) 101.1 ft/lbs, 32# rifle


Since the end of World War II we have seen the pendulum swing from the proliferation of mild, rather easily handled cartridges to ever increasingly powerful belted magnums and on to the new non-belted magnums of equal or more power. But accuracy records still fall to tamer, smaller rounds. Even in long range target shooting, such as the 1000 yard matches, smaller cartridges are slowly taking over with the belted magnums giving way to such relatively mild cartridges as the 6.5x06 Ackley Improved, 6.5x284, 6.5x55 Swedish, .260 Remington and even the standard .243 Winchester, just to name a few. All of these cartridges develop less than 20 ft/lbs of recoil. And these shooters often comment about being better able to hold without flinching. They know the milder recoil has led to better groups on target.

The next time you are cruising around checking hunter camps and meat poles, take a look at the game hanging. If the game has been taken cleanly with one shot, placed properly, you can bet it was taken with some rifle with recoil not exceeding that of the .30-06. On the other hand, if the game is shot-up, hit all over, you will find in most cases the shooters were using the big, bad, belted boomers with plenty of recoil.

Keep shooting…but drop back to those cartridges you can shoot without flinching. Your targets will appreciate it.

Bob Jourdan
PS & TAR Staff[/b]

 

[COHunter]

That was a pretty good article. And I agree 100%. I think its a psychological thing that Elk are modern day Dinosaurs to a lot of hunters and require a M1 Tank to kill. I'm not trying to pick on guys from back East, but they usually come out with the biggest gun they can find and take shoots that should require an Artillery spotter.