FHL $150 annual fee

[cjmassari]

I called today and spoke to a woman at the MWR number. I was polite (which is key) and she said she'd fielded numerous other complaints. She recommended I file an ICE complaint because the commander will see it. I tried to locate the correct ICE location with no luck, so I called the base administration office to inquire who was the correct agency to write. A LtCol. answered the phone and, thinking I had the wrong number told him what I was trying to accomplish. He took my information and said he would look into it and call me back.

While he didn't let on to being intimately aware initially, I soon came to realize he had SA about this issue. He said that the base looked at other PRIVATE hunt fees and felt they were pricing accordingly. I explained to him that other Cali military bases are far less expensive to hunt (Vandy is $50).

I also told him it defied logic that a disabled veteran should have to pay $150 (non-refundable) for a mere chance at getting a tag, when to enter a lottery for the same tag at the State level it is only $8.13. Total BS. I know the odds are different at the state level, but it appears to me that they're gouging.

I also have a more insidious theory why this might be happening. Camp Roberts has been closed to hunting FOREVER with no lifting of the ban in sight. The CO there is a female Natl. Guard member. The CO at Ft. Hunter Liggett- the same. I may be wrong or sexist in my assumption, but I suspect both CO's may be anti-hunting. Again, this is merely speculation on my part, but in the case of FHL, I had to spend $35 last year (disabled vet) to apply for a tag I never won, and this year it's $150 for a crack. I will not hunt up there unless I draw a tag, so that's money burned if I don't win.

I can tell you this. I'm 100% sure whomever set this policy lumping disabled vets in with the gen public has never spent a day in combat or else this oversight (or intentional slight) never would've happened.

I'm thinking of filing an IG complaint about this because this simply makes no sense and advise others to do the same. I tried today to get in touch with a friend who retired and works there for the back story, but if he can't explain it, I'm going to go the IG route.

 

[Phil80]

ICE complaint submitted. After the whole weapons registration nonsense and now this I will go to Vandyland. Oh well their loss. Like the above said it probably is because a damn split tail is the Co now.

 

[ltdann]

I called today and spoke to a woman at the MWR number. I was polite (which is key) and she said she'd fielded numerous other complaints. She recommended I file an ICE complaint because the commander will see it. I tried to locate the correct ICE location with no luck, so I called the base administration office to inquire who was the correct agency to write. A LtCol. answered the phone and, thinking I had the wrong number told him what I was trying to accomplish. He took my information and said he would look into it and call me back. While he didn't let on to being intimately aware initially, I soon came to realize he had SA about this issue. He said that the base looked at other PRIVATE hunt fees and felt they were pricing accordingly. I explained to him that other Cali military bases are far less expensive to hunt (Vandy is $50). I also told him it defied logic that a disabled veteran should have to pay $150 (non-refundable) for a mere chance at getting a tag, when to enter a lottery for the same tag at the State level it is only $8.13. Total BS. I know the odds are different at the state level, but it appears to me that they're gouging.I also have a more insidious theory why this might be happening. Camp Roberts has been closed to hunting FOREVER with no lifting of the ban in sight. The CO there is a female Natl. Guard member. The CO at Ft. Hunter Liggett- the same. I may be wrong or sexist in my assumption, but I suspect both CO's may be anti-hunting. Again, this is merely speculation on my part, but in the case of FHL, I had to spend $35 last year (disabled vet) to apply for a tag I never won, and this year it's $150 for a crack. I will not hunt up there unless I draw a tag, so that's money burned if I don't win.I can tell you this. I'm 100% sure whomever set this policy lumping disabled vets in with the gen public has never spent a day in combat or else this oversight (or intentional slight) never would've happened. I'm thinking of filing an IG complaint about this because this simply makes no sense and advise others to do the same. I tried today to get in touch with a friend who retired and works there for the back story, but if he can't explain it, I'm going to go the IG route.

+1. At last year there was a seperate fee category for retiree's. Not this year. It's as if 20+ years of service doesn't count for anything. I view this as an $150 elk draw application fee. It's a 7 hour drive for me and I won't hunt FHL UNLESS I draw a tag. It's outrageous. Last year it was $60 for a retiree and it was even less the year before. Ever since MWR took over, they've been gouging folks, particularly the DOD folks, whose program it is anyway.

 

[myfriendis410]

I'm with you guys. I won't apply because of the requirement to pay BEFORE drawing. I have no intention of hunting FHL unless I'm drawn so find the requirement unfair.

Come down to Vandenberg; we'll be glad to have you! Except no elk or turkeys....

 

[Huntr Pat]

I email them yesterday and this is the reply I got From Rick Bosch

The fees collected for the Ft. Hunter Liggett Hunting and Fishing program
are solely used at Ft. Hunter Liggett for a variety of purposes but one of
the primary, per the Sikes Act, is for conservation efforts on over 165,000
acres of land at FHL. In addition to covering the operating costs of the
hunting and fishing program through the year, these fees additionally are
used for the protection, conservation, and management of fish and wildlife,
including habitat restoration and improvement, biologist staff support,
costs, and related activities, as stated in the Fish and Wildlife
Cooperative Plan. Our fee structure is designed to cover all of these
associated costs while meeting all requirements.

Regulations allows GC to provide no-cost FHL Hunting Licenses for junior
enlisted soldiers (pay grade E4 and below) and reduced fee for Enlisted
Soldiers.

In trying to keep fees below comparable services outside of the gates, staff
benchmarked similar operations within a 250 mile radius of FHL and for the
most part, our fee structuring came in a fraction of the surrounding fees.
Typically fees are set between 75-100% of the outside the gates fees and FHL
Hunting fees average less than 25% of comparable fees surrounding.

We apologize if the structuring of the FHL Annual Hunting Permits and Fees
have caused any inconvenience.

Should you have any additional questions or concerns, please feel free to
contact me at any time.

Thanks,

Rick Bosch

Chief, Community Recreation & Business Operations Division Family and MWR,
USAG Ft. Hunter Liggett, BLDG 288 Infantry Road, Jolon, CA 93928, P: (831)
386.2383, C: (860) 792.1186, rick.bosch@us.army.mil,
www.liggett.army.mil/MWR, Let us know how we are doing through ICE:
https://ice.disa.mil/index.cfm?fa=card&sp=113901&s=442&dep=*DoD&sc=1

 

[radonsport]

I believe this is a the correct Internet address link to the relevent ICE form, relatiing to the department which handles the hunting and fishing program. http://www.liggett.army.mil/sites/dpw/environmental.asp On the bottom, right hand side of the web page is a link to the ICE comment form.

It's time to voice our disapproval regarding the recent hunting permit fee to the folks who contrived it!

 

[Huntr Pat]

Here is complaint of service form.
https://ice.disa.mil/index.cfm?fa=card&sp=113901&s=442&dep=*DoD&sc=1

After I submitted this I got an Error msg

 

[ltdann]

Sent mine to the HQ element, as I was not happy with what Rick Bosch responded with. I did some research to get a feel for comparison, Yuma proving grounds $10, VAFB $50, Fort Benning $31, Yakima Training grounds $15, Fort Lewis-McCHord $20 and Fort Wainwright in Alaska is FREE. Sounds like they did is take 25% of COMMERCIAL pig hunting fees in the local area.

 

[cali-carnivore]

He did say they compared it to services outside the gate. I had to laugh at the fact it is free in Alaska. Even if they charged $5 nobody would pay with all the public land there. I can see them comparing the cost outside the gate for the general public but not active/retired service. Every base has a mandate and obligation to provide reasonable leisure activities for the troops.

 

[Uncle Bambi]

........Sounds like they did is take 25% of COMMERCIAL pig hunting fees in the local area.

I don't have a dog in this fight as I'm a civilian and will have to pay either way, but when I read the excerpt below I assumed by the way it was worded that they priced their fee based on surrounding private guide fees .... "outside the fence" as it were:

"In trying to keep fees below comparable services outside of the gates, staff
benchmarked similar operations within a 250 mile radius of FHL and for the
most part, our fee structuring came in a fraction of the surrounding fees.
Typically fees are set between 75-100% of the outside the gates fees and FHL
Hunting fees average less than 25% of comparable fees surrounding."

You guys are getting screwed...... and by extension, so am I.

 

[Hikingwithguns]

"In trying to keep fees below comparable services outside of the gates, staff
benchmarked similar operations within a 250 mile radius of FHL and for the
most part, our fee structuring came in a fraction of the surrounding fees.
Typically fees are set between 75-100% of the outside the gates fees and FHL
Hunting fees average less than 25% of comparable fees surrounding."

Well los padres fee is what again? $0 or an adventure pass maybe. And los padres is surrounding... BLM land in the blue ridge berryessa area where there are pigs is $0. I could go on. If they want to compare FHL land to private land they should look at success rates vs private land and take into account the fact that you won't have people shooting over your head on private land either.

In the end this mostly hurts military folks as previously mentionted. For civilians like me its still the best "public" land in socal and I will pony up. It is bs though. I have seen a lot of fees for everything (gas, rent, taxes, tuition, blah blah) increase due to "cost of living increases" etc. I sure didn't see my salary go up by 50% this year!

With all this added bs happening this year its hard to not make a connection between this and the new CO...

And Newtown hysteria. Oh well, I will just enjoy the place as long as I can until the new construction starts and it is permanently closed like Camp Roberts.

 

[Navy SWO]

I bit the bullet and sent in my $150 because I want to hunt elk. Like many who have posted, I would not normally hunt FHL for anything other than elk. I was frustrated a couple of years ago when I had to pony up $60 in order to apply. Still, I have been fortunate enough to hunt elk twice in the last 15 years and the quality and convenience of the hunt coupled with the good chances of getting drawn as active duty made it worth the $$ to me. Part of me is hopeful that enough people will decide not to apply and increase my chances and the other part is pi$$ed about the whole thing. It will be interesting to see how many hunting permits they sell this year compared to the past. There certainly should be an option for applying for elk/deer without having to pay the entire fee up front. I am also suprised there is not a price category for retirees and active duty officers like there was in the past.

 

[Superduty65]

I will be sending in my form for sure....something has to get done. If we just let them stomp on us like this then what kind of men are we? I don't care if they like it or not, they need to know we are not satisfied with this. The answer from Mr. Bosch just frustrated me more.

 

[Uncle Bambi]

Look what's on the FHL hunting web page, with no link to the 2013/2014 permit application:

2013 hunting fees under review. Please check back soon for updates.

Keep hammering on them, guys....... you've gotten someone's attention.

 

[Sea 2'er]

Good catch, I seen that statement also. But when I went online about 10 this morning, the deadline was 2 June and they had the 2013/14 elk app and hunting app online. They have since pulled it down and extended the date. Apps no longer there....,

Tried calling them multiple times, but only got a recording.

Maybe they are reviewing their fees after all. Hopefully!!!

 

[ltdann]

I bit the bullet and sent in my $150 because I want to hunt elk. Like many who have posted, I would not normally hunt FHL for anything other than elk. I was frustrated a couple of years ago when I had to pony up $60 in order to apply. Still, I have been fortunate enough to hunt elk twice in the last 15 years and the quality and convenience of the hunt coupled with the good chances of getting drawn as active duty made it worth the $$ to me. Part of me is hopeful that enough people will decide not to apply and increase my chances and the other part is pi$$ed about the whole thing. It will be interesting to see how many hunting permits they sell this year compared to the past. There certainly should be an option for applying for elk/deer without having to pay the entire fee up front. I am also suprised there is not a price category for retirees and active duty officers like there was in the past.

+1.

 

[Navy SWO]

Look what's on the FHL hunting web page, with no link to the 2013/2014 permit application:

2013 hunting fees under review. Please check back soon for updates.

Keep hammering on them, guys....... you've gotten someone's attention.

Well that is interesting. I saw the blurb on the site yesterday where they extended the deadline for elk and deer military tag applications. I'm glad I got my apps in before they disappeared, but I hope it doesn't get all jacked up as FHL tries to unfarkle this mess. At least they appear to understand that perhaps they didn't make the best decisions. This will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

 

[mr sunset]

Sent mine to the HQ element, as I was not happy with what Rick Bosch responded with. I did some research to get a feel for comparison, Yuma proving grounds $10, VAFB $50, Fort Benning $31, Yakima Training grounds $15, Fort Lewis-McCHord $20 and Fort Wainwright in Alaska is FREE. Sounds like they did is take 25% of COMMERCIAL pig hunting fees in the local area.

+1, I went state draw for elk/muzzy as 150 for a "chance" is more than I can afford. I was a frequent FLH hunter. As options and expenses change I doubt I will make that 4.5 hour drive trip up there again. not going to say never..as a civilian I think they could do better for all military retired/serving/DOD ect.. Comparing FHL to commercial / privite land fee's is typical BS justification. and for the female animal loving CO...
(I love animals, I think they are delicious) Phil Robertson/Duck Dynasty

 

[RodeoFlyer]

I email them yesterday and this is the reply I got From Rick Bosch

The fees collected for the Ft. Hunter Liggett Hunting and Fishing program
are solely used at Ft. Hunter Liggett for a variety of purposes but one of
the primary, per the Sikes Act, is for conservation efforts on over 165,000
acres of land at FHL. In addition to covering the operating costs of the
hunting and fishing program through the year, these fees additionally are
used for the protection, conservation, and management of fish and wildlife,
including habitat restoration and improvement, biologist staff support,
costs, and related activities, as stated in the Fish and Wildlife
Cooperative Plan. Our fee structure is designed to cover all of these
associated costs while meeting all requirements.

Regulations allows GC to provide no-cost FHL Hunting Licenses for junior
enlisted soldiers (pay grade E4 and below) and reduced fee for Enlisted
Soldiers.

In trying to keep fees below comparable services outside of the gates, staff
benchmarked similar operations within a 250 mile radius of FHL and for the
most part, our fee structuring came in a fraction of the surrounding fees.
Typically fees are set between 75-100% of the outside the gates fees and FHL
Hunting fees average less than 25% of comparable fees surrounding.

We apologize if the structuring of the FHL Annual Hunting Permits and Fees
have caused any inconvenience.

Should you have any additional questions or concerns, please feel free to
contact me at any time.

Thanks,

Rick Bosch

Chief, Community Recreation & Business Operations Division Family and MWR,
USAG Ft. Hunter Liggett, BLDG 288 Infantry Road, Jolon, CA 93928, P: (831)
386.2383, C: (860) 792.1186, rick.bosch@us.army.mil,
www.liggett.army.mil/MWR, Let us know how we are doing through ICE:
https://ice.disa.mil/index.cfm?fa=card&sp=113901&s=442&dep=*DoD&sc=1

So.....he's saying the costs to perform all those things DOUBLED from one year to the next? I'm calling bullshit.


I also have a question / need clarification - I noticed you guys saying you have to buy a permit BEFORE the draw??? I applied for the either sex archery elk hunt at FHL and I dont have a current permit....

 

[ltdann]

Right. They started that last year when the price went up $60. FHL requires you to buy a hunt permit BEFORE you apply for their elk/deer draw. They're basically saying (this year), it's a $150 draw application fee. The state charges $8 admin fee to apply for a FHL civilian elk hunt. FHL charges $150 to enter the FHL military elk hunt.....it's the same hunt at the same time.