Guided hunts - are prices to high?

[Rancho Loco]

QUOTE (bpnclark @ Jan 7 2008, 11:19 PM)

There are very few "wild" pigs/hogs in CA. I don't believe that these ranches that have hundreds of pigs killed on their property every year still have enough "wild" ones to reproduce and make their numbers greater, year after year.

So what you're saying is - ranches are breeding and releasing pigs?

You're kidding, right?

 

[Speckmisser]

This one's gone all over the place... and somewhere along the line reality gets wavery. I'm starting to see things in Upper-ese.

First of all, Rancho, I'm gonna differ with ya here and say, yeah, if you have good property access in the right area with lots of hogs and habitat, you could probably make money selling hunts for $300 a pop. I've done the math. Unfortunately, you'd probably clear just enough to toe the Federal poverty line. But if that's in addition to other income, it's not too bad for a little extra.

However, Kentuck, you're not gonna do it on a single piece of property unless that's one big chunk of land AND you're doing as BPNClark suggests and planting a few extras. Let's be honest and know that, despite the fact that it's illegal as heck in CA, it's happening. Actually not just in CA, but all over the country... hence the fact that we'll soon have feral hogs in all 50 states within the next 10 years.

Even so, BPN's cynicism is a bit misplaced. CA has a ton of wild hogs even without the planting. They're here, and the populations are hot and heavy in some parts of the state... hence the rapid proliferation of hunting operations.

You could do like Chopper does on his place, with 4000 acres you can run archery-only hunts, but if you allowed six to eight gun hunters to sweep that place every weekend from December through June, there wouldn't be a pig left on the place after a month.

7mag, I believe I've pointed this out before, but guided hunts and tresspass fees aren't selling animals. They're selling hunting access and guide services. That's why you have to have a license to hunt there. The animals still belong to the State. If you want to hunt inside a fence for legally planted animals, no license is required.

As a property owner, I control access to my land, not the State. Doesn't matter why you're coming on it. That's why the law requires written permission to access private property. If I want to charge you a fee to access my place, then that's my business. If you don't like it, you don't come to my place. The State sure as hell doesn't have any say about who I let on my land or how much I charge to do so.

As a guide, I charge for my time and my experience. I'm not just out there for fun, or to share the great outdoors experience with someone. I value my time, and charge accordingly, just like any other expert tradesman would do. If my price is too high, don't use my services. Would be the same if I were a cabinet maker. Want some nice custom cabinets installed? Here's my rate. Too rich for your blood? Go to Lowes. Lowes is too much? Then make your own. Can't afford the lumber? Then do without. You don't have to have cabinets. You don't have to pig hunt on private land or with a guide.

Are you really suggesting that the State government step in and regulate this thing? Besides the trampling of property rights and the infringement on free trade practices that this would imply, the very idea of more government regulation of hunting should give you nightmares and cold sweats!

Now, let me back up and say this.

I would like to see more efforts by the State to work with landowners for public access. It's happening a little bit now, where the ranchers get a subsidy to allow hunting/fishing access to their land. Montana has a great program, and CA is modeling theirs on a similar basis.

But the process has to respect the rights of property owners, not twist their arms. As bad as California politics are, we are still not a socialist state. I, for one, would like to keep it that way.

 

[Backcountry]

One thing no one has mentioned yet... landowners have property taxes and oftentimes, gargantuan estate taxes (thank you libs), to contend with...

I've got a big family... 5 generations in California... there are professionals in my family (lifer military, lawyers, doctors, engineers), some do-nuthin drugged out bums, and even a couple of farmer/landowner families... Guess which families live at the poverty line? Guess who lives hand to mouth and craps a brick every year when tax time is due? We always kid them that they are land rich and money poor, but kidding aside, it's also a fact. Sure they could sell, or take on investors (i.e., corporate money) and grow grapes, but they chose to scrape by on hay & grain, or satsuma mandarins, because of the immeasurable value owning land brings to their families.

Landowners are not the evil ones here...

 

[easymoney]

Boy this is getting heated...
IMHO, the free market will adjust the price according to supply and demand.
There are more "wild" pigs(see supply) in CA now than at any other time(and there is no end in sight according to all DFG data) and the amount of hunters willing to pay for "guided hunts(see demand) is also growing.
That being said, I also don't no of any guides or ranches getting rich off of hunting pigs. The costs incured to run a legit operation with insurance, fees and licenses goes up every year and they do not set those prices. From the landowners and guides I know it has become an additional source of revenue offsetting the damage the pigs do, low livestock and grain prices and the changing agriculture climate. It has just become another way to stay in ranching in the state of CA.
And the steady supply of big city hunters willing to pay almost any fee to hunt using someone else's experience and abilities to insure a high success rate as opposed to the time and effort it takes to hunt (or get the experience and knowledge personally) successfully hunt on public land will continue to grow. Just look at what people will pay for a guided elk hunt out of state, or even right here in CA. $12-15K is not uncommon for a guided tule elk hunt in the La Panza, or Carrizo Plains areas.

 

[boarhunter67]

QUOTE

Oh, and this is for boarhunter67, I lucked into a trophy boar in April 2005. Got it to a taxidermist in Aug. 2005 and still don't have my pig. Biggest frickin' mistake I've made in awhile. Glad I didn't give him too large a deposit. Last time I actually heard from him was my pig was mounted and just needed to be painted. That was in July! But I am going off topic so I'll stop there too.

That's ridiculous. Six months is my turn around for pigs right now, but even a super slow taxidermist should only take 12-14 months. I think at 3 1/2 years you lose the right to sue. I'd send him a registered letter demanding your pig in a month's time or you'll take him to small claims court. It might seem petty, but after almost three years, he obviously doesn't respond to anything else and doesn't respect you. I had that happen to me once before I got into taxidermy myself and eventually the person went out of business and moved away. I never got my animal and since I had traded for it, he had already been paid. He definitely needs a little push toward doing what's right. Let me know how it turns out.

 

[Kentuck]

Rancho, definately didn't mean to cause any issues with my question. It's just been my observation that these hunts are on properties where the hunts are supplemental income. Are you going to make a good living doing it? No. As you said, if your own a working ranch you are letting something go undone to take time to guide, if you don't hire someone to do it. Hire someone to do it defeats the purpose.
Been around enough farmers/ranchers to know that it's a tough life and by no means are any of them rich in what many think of as rich. Good, honest, hard working folk.
Another thing I do know, just because they have game on their land doesn't give anyone the right to go on their land and hunt. The game is there because they take care of the habitat, raise a crop game likes and in some cases acutally do work that helps wildlife out of their own pocket. Having access to private property is a blessing, not a right.

 

[hatchet1]

as long as were talkin fee,s how about the 177.75 a year plus renewal of my surety bond every year !!
keep adding it up boys,there is no gettin rich in the guide buisness, it is purely for fun and the benefits that
come with it

 

[bpnclark]

Rancho – you’re kidding right. Do you really believe none of these large ranches have ever released “wild” hogs on their property to get their numbers back up?

Don’t get me wrong there are wild hogs in CA. I remember hogs in the Cashe Creek and Walker Ridge area. Word got out about the hogs there. People came – people hunted – more people came – more people hunted – more people brought their dogs and hunted – now the hogs are gone.

 

[Speckmisser]

BPN, most of those hogs were chased off of public land and onto private property. They weren't killed off. They stay on the private land because the habitat is better and the hunting pressure is way lighter.

 

[bpnclark]

There are not too many places for them to go in that area, but I agree.

I didn’t think there were people out there that sold “wild” hogs. But in the last couple years I have ran into a couple. My friend even called DF&G on one, because the hogs he was raising were right next to the road (anyone jogging past his place can see them, they are right there!) but DF&G blew him off and didn’t care. I don’t know if it is really against the law. I’m pretty sure that they can make a strong case about the hogs not being “game” animals but livestock instead.

 

[Speckmisser]

There's a very clear law against intentionally releasing any animals into the wild in CA... be it dogs, cats, or hogs. Heck, technically it's illegal for me to trap a coon out of my persimmon tree and release him out in the woods. But yeah, getting a law enforcement response may be tricky.

Oh yeah, and there are definitely people out there who are trapping, selling, and transplanting wild hogs. How big is the business? I dunno. But it's happening.

 

[Kentuck]

My first "Guided" pig hunt took place on ranch in Lake County and it turned out to be a "pen" hunt. They had some female hogs in a large 20 acres fenced area and one in a pen nearby. Hopes were that the local boars would be attracted to the penned females. If you didn't see one outside the main enclosure, you got to go in the 20-acre pen and shoot one. I asked where they got their hogs and the question was dodged. The hogs certainly looked like they were wild at one time.

 

[bigtusker]

I can make $300 hunts work...................................for a couple months. But I'd have to book 10+ hunters every weekend and eventually I'd go out of business because my property would end up like most public pieces, overhunted and shot out.

I know what it costs, and I'm not going to lay it all out here but I'm by no means getting rich. I just had the transfer case repaired in my truck last week and had to repair a broken leaf spring on the trailer I use to haul firewood to the cabin so my clients dont freeze their arses off. The same trailer I use to haul material from the quarry to the ranch to keep the roads passable. $2000 in the $h!tt&r right there. Land leasing or property ownership is not cheap.

 

[easymoney]

"most of those hogs were chased off of public land and onto private property. They weren't killed off. They stay on the private land because the habitat is better and the hunting pressure is way lighter. "
Homerun, mister misser...
Explains it very well.
If anyone wants to see untouchable hogs just drive around on the back roads in San Luis Obispo or Monterey counties. Rooting everywhere, yet no hunting allowed or it is controlled by guides only.
Two years ago the DFG hired a federal trapper to take 31 out of our town and of course he was called because no shooting is allowed near homes and no hunting after dark. The pigs are back in force, now and I drool every day I see them...
The only ones profitting completely from the booming hog populations is the DFG in the form of tag sales, all gravey... A non native feral species competeing with native game animals and they rake in the bucks, go figure...

 

[boar slayer]

i see some people think the people of california own the game on thier property sorry to tell you this we dont all game is property of the state not the people if we owned it you would not need tags to hunt on private property and you could set your own seasons bag limits etc the only way to even manage your property for game here is to get into the plm program and only with the states involment just like tejon ranch and others who have to pay for habitat enhancement on thier property and those who hunt on plm lands help pay for by the hunt fees

 

[SacFireJT]

QUOTE (easymoney @ Jan 8 2008, 07:31 AM) http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=951127

Boy this is getting heated...
IMHO, the free market will adjust the price according to supply and demand.

Amen!

Just like gas...people complain, but the keep buying it even if it goes up 20-30 cents in a week.

 

[sfhoghunter]

QUOTE (Speckmisser @ Jan 7 2008, 08:29 PM)

I guess I'm just not sure I understand why that's a problem for some people. I don't get the thinking behind this whole, "I don't want to pay your prices, so they're too high."

It's like people are supposed to be entitled to "budget" pig hunts? Why is that?

Maybe it's just a lamentation... a song of grieving to let it out of your systems? Or does anyone think that something really needs to be done about it... and if so, what is that something?

That's just it, Speckmisser - a lamentation. The issue here is that many of us like to think of hunting as a right, rather than a privilege. Unfortunately, this is just not the case, at least for quality hunting.

It is true that anyone may hunt on public land, but we all know that such hunting is difficult at best - very unlikely that you'll bag a hog on public land. That leaves hunting on private land, which for most people means paying to play. Hence the heated discussion regarding what a fair cost to hunt is.

Does anyone think something should be done? I seriously doubt it. Rather, this thread has allowed a number of people to vent their frustration that what used to be affordable is quickly becoming priced out of their league - what was once the right of the many is now the privilege of the few.

I know it frustrates me. Just one of those things that chap your hide but there is nothing you can do about it. Sure is nice to let off a bit of steam, though.

 

[Valley Hunter]

RUT ROOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[boarhunter67]

QUOTE (Speckmisser @ Jan 8 2008, 08:47 AM)

There's a very clear law against intentionally releasing any animals into the wild in CA... be it dogs, cats, or hogs. Heck, technically it's illegal for me to trap a coon out of my persimmon tree and release him out in the woods. But yeah, getting a law enforcement response may be tricky.

Oh yeah, and there are definitely people out there who are trapping, selling, and transplanting wild hogs. How big is the business? I dunno. But it's happening.

I know of several places here in Kern County that were populated by a couple of people I know. They used hounds to get hogs over by the coast, taped up their mouths and legs, then transported them here; Everytime they went they would bring back a few hogs and release them. Pretty soon they had several places here in Kern County to run their dogs and not travel so far. Most of them were released on private property whose owners wanted to start charging people to come on and kill a hog. Some were released out in the water district until DFG came out and slaughtered most of those. I don't complain because in my mind the more game out there the better for me as long as I'm not breaking a rule to get them here.

 

[SacFireJT]

I am not the fastest typer in the world, so I will just do this: