Hog Dog Training Question

[DirtAddict]

First off I apologize for a long post, but I wanted to give you some background on my problem and hope some of you more experienced dog hunting folks can help me out.

I hunt pretty much exclusively public lands for wild pig and as you would expect my success rate is, quite frankly, low. I don't mind this really, but I would like to increase my odds a bit. I have some experience training dogs, so I decided to enhance my pig hunts with mans best friend...seems like a natural fit if you ask me.

Now I know there are different ways of taking pigs with dogs e.g. various combinations of strike/bay/catch, different breeds, etc. For me (and keep in mind I've never mixed dogs and hunting before), I would like the dog to find and bay a pig, giving me the opportunity to shoot it, which by my understanding is currently the only legal way to kill one in CA (outside of Archery hunting).

I own a few dogs, and earlier had picked up a Catahoula cross puppy as a rescue. I tested her out for interest and scenting ability and IMO truly is a talented puppy (now 9 months old). I train her weekly on scenting (I use Grawes) and she has been tested successfully on trails up to 2 hours old and several hundred meters long, using a canvas dummy that I hide out of sight.

I've taken her hunting with me in the woods on several shake out sessions. Here's a few observations:
1. She doesn't range as far in the woods as in fields where she can better see me. I can probably overcome this with more training in woods and maybe maturity?
2. She chases deer scent. I know this because I sighted deer a few hundred meters out during one hunting session and the dog didn't smell or see them. When we got to the spot they were at she picked up the scent, got real giddy and bolted into the woods after the deer (It was clear she was responding to scent and not sound).

Problem is with my low success rate, she's never seen a pig before. And I don't live in a place that can hold a pig pen for training. How can I correct her on junk if I haven't been able to show her what she is supposed to be tracking in real life? And I can't even begin testing her on baying ability until that gets worked out.

I know there is a way to make this work, but I just don't know how to move from what I consider sport training to real hunting. How did all of you get your dogs experienced with pigs?

Thanks in advance! :wavin hello:

 

[bigboarstopper]

Easiest answer. Buy a finished dog. The dog will have all the tools already in the toolbox and wont be running any trash game. It will also get your up and comming dog on the right path. Be prepared to spend some money. A 100% finished dog can cost between 1500 to 3 grand. Otherwise try to hunt with somone whos experienced dogs will set your dog strait or pay somone to train/hunt it for a few months to get the job done for you. That will probally cost a few hundred bucks a month for around 6-10 months depending on how often the dog gets oout in the field. However there is no guarantee the dog will turn out. Its really up to the dogs natural instincs. They will either kick in or they wont. Its a gamble. If I was in your shoes I would be in the same predicament. Ive been doin the hogdog thing for years and If I was in a place with little game and green dogs I probabally wouldnt be able to get the job done either.

A few other points that are really just my opinion is id wait a little longer to start that pup. Catahoulas tend to be slow starters. Some will fire up and hunt hard at an early age and then fizzle out after a while. Id give it a few more months before any hard training of any kind. Another thing thats my own opinion is keep the training sessions short. Young dogs have a short attention span and can quickly become bored and uninterested.

You said the dog dosent range much. That isnt a big deal and never really will be if I understood you right. My dogs are usually always within sight when im in the field. Once a track is found they will take off. I personally dont like a dog that will run off out of sight for longer than necessary if its not actively not on a track.

Theres another point to make that might be a little depressing. Even if you spend that 3k on the superdog. Theres a chance that the lack of game in your area might make the dog stale or trashy after a long period of no game where your hunting. My best dog would go stale or get trashy if she didnt come across a hog for extremely long periods of time.

Id be happy to help you out with any info I can give. I dont have any dogs for sale, nor do I train dogs for people but I can point you in some good directions. Pm me if youd like to get into it further.

 

[EvBouret]

Id trust any advice bigboarstopper will give you. You definitely seem to know your stuff.

 

[RIFLEMAN]

DirtAddict,

I agree with bigboarstopper's suggestion that you buy a finished dog; a good dog can be made from scratch, but doing so not only relies on an individual with the genetic predisposition towards acceptable performance, but will largely be determined by the owner's ability to provide the dog with significant exposure to the desired game. Given your indication that hogs may be rare in your area (which may not necessarily be true with a veteran hog dog at your disposal), you would have your work cut out for you in an effort to make a dog from scratch.

As to the cost, there are ways to avoid the significant price tag that bigboarstopper offered; I would shop for a dog outside of California. I suggest you visit baydog.com and shop around before you buy. Insist on a trial of no less than 14 days, and if you are able, fly out there to hunt with the dog (alone, without any others) and its owner in its normal environment.

I run hounds, so I can't comment on when to begin hunting Catahoulas, but in general, I would be very cautious about attempting to put a pup on hogs all by itself...especially in brushy areas that are challenging to a bay dog. Dogs are quite impressionable at a young age, and one bad experience such as getting cut or bumped may ruin or impair an otherwise promising dog.

You are on the right track with taking your pup out for walks and drag races, but make certain you do exactly what bigboarstopper suggested about the sessions...keep them to no more than 10-15 minutes. You want to stop the session while your pup is at its height of interest rather than stopping when it become disinterested or bored...doing so will encourage its intensity and desire for more of whatever stimulus (scent, animal, etc) that you are exposing it to.

As far as the ranging of your dog, different breeds have different inclinations (hounds typically range further than curs) and individuals develop specific habits as they mature, so I would not worry too much about it. A good dog will find a hog track to run no matter how close or far from you they are.

If you are truly serious about immersing yourself into the use of dogs for hoghunting, make sure you understand the commitment that it is required. This is unlike any other type of hunting other than falconry. This pastime requires a lot of time, money, and effort. If you don't have a good hog population in your area, you will need to go where there are hogs. The average houndsman spends far more days in the field than the average hunter who does not use dogs; this is one part necessity (a good dog does not come out of a box, nor will it remain a good dog like a rifle in the closet), one part morality (it's not fair to keep coursing dogs penned up), and one part passion (we are wired differently that most) that culminates in this being a lifestyle choice rather than a hobby. Being a houndsman is who we are, not what we do.

 

[DirtAddict]

Thanks bigboarstopper and Rifleman. This is very good advice. Even though I have experience training dogs for obedience, it's clear that training for hunting adds a very different dimension (even though the basics of training a dog seem to be similar). As such, I am hesitant on purchasing a finished dog only because I am learning as much if not more than the dog as part of the training process and through conversations like this.

It also sounds like I could also still ruin a good quality, purchased, finished dog if I don't get at least semi-regular access to pigs. So it looks like I really need to "improve" my situation. If I understood you correctly, here are a few ideas.

*Get Help: find a trainer or hunting guide that will expose my dog to pigs in a controlled environment or bring my dog along with his "finished" dogs so mine can watch/learn.
*Do It Myself: Find someone with land to borrow/rent where I can bring in a smallish pig for my dog to practice find and bay. After which time I would slaughter the pig for the freezer. hehehe

Any other ideas? Also, if you know of any trainers or guides that would be good resources please let me know. Any option is going to cost money. I guess the question is how much and which gives the best bang for the buck.

As a side note, in addition to my own dogs, I train and foster shelter dogs for adoption. Other than spending time outdoors with my kids, I like nothing better than sharing my back country experiences with my dogs. Since you have dogs you'll know how difficult it is just to find places that will allow dogs off leash (at least this is the case where I live). I agree having dogs, especially of hunting caliber and condition, is definitely a lifestyle choice if you are going to do it right.

 

[bigboarstopper]

rifleman makes me jealous. He always sounds so much smarter than me when he posts.:smiley_green_with_e

 

[RIFLEMAN]

DirtAddict,

Even though I have experience training dogs for obedience, it's clear that training for hunting adds a very different dimension (even though the basics of training a dog seem to be similar).

Your experience doing obedience training will definitely come in handy; I firmly believe in the importance of fostering a disciplined environment and believe it enhances a dog's performance. I don't allow my dogs to bark in the pen, I command them into their houses when I am cleaning up after them, I call them out by name one by one when chaining them up to feed or when letting them out of the dogbox to hunt, and I can keep the pen doors open and walk away without worrying about them getting out. I believe that dogs enjoy this kind of regimen because it provides consistent stimuli within otherwise mundane settings while not in the act of hunting.

However, almost every dog has an innate desire for order and discipline given the highly disciplined social structure in their evolutionary history. What makes training a dog to hunt different and likely more challenging for you is the fact that not every dog has the same level of innate instinct, aptitude, and performance capability for the successful pursuit of hogs or other mammals. Selecting a pup with the necessary potential and then developing that potential into actual performance will test your patience, enthusiasm, and comittment to embark upon this pastime.

...I am hesitant on purchasing a finished dog only because I am learning as much if not more than the dog as part of the training process and through conversations like this.

I understand this sentiment wholeheartedly. I started my first two dogs from scratch, and they turned out to be some of my best of all time. But as I make sure to point out to everyone, they became great dogs IN SPITE of me, rather than BECAUSE me because they taught me more than I taught them and were able to overlook the mistakes I made with their training. I found the experience much more rewarding than I would have had I bought a finished dog to act as a mentor, and feel that I am the better for it. However, I had the luxury of being a high school kid with few responsibilities to distract me, so I was able to work with them every day thereby giving them the exposure they needed to develop their abilities. Fast forward to today: my job, family and other comittments would make making a dog from scratch difficult to do again, so I must rely on my older dogs to help with the training.

It also sounds like I could also still ruin a good quality, purchased, finished dog if I don't get at least semi-regular access to pigs. So it looks like I really need to "improve" my situation.

Yes, this is absolutely a possibility if not an inevitability. Coursing dogs are athletes, and like any athlete, they must be given ample opportunity to practice their craft in order to maintain their proficiency and improve their skills and techniques.

Though I obviously cannot say for certain, I would doubt that a guide would be willing to take your dog under his wing; he has his livelihood to consider, and quite likely would not want to risk the experience of his client by bringing a green dog along.

Buddy-ing up with an experienced hunter would be a great way to take advantage of an opportunity for a finished dog to show your dog the ropes. Finding such a hunter may take some time however, as houndsmen can be notoriously shy and unsocial preferring the company of dogs and bear in the woods rather than that of people in towns and neighborhoods. In order to get to know some, I would suggest you join a local hound hunting club as well as California Houndsmen for Conservation. CHC is a state-wide hound hunting organization that not only hosts and promotes events around the state, but is highly engaged in the political arena in order to ensure that hunting mammals with dogs remains a part of our national heritage and recognized wildlife management tool. Please visit www.californiahoundsmen.com for more information about CHC or the clubs in your area.

Also, in much the same way that having a finished dog will help mentor your dog, so too will the experienced hunter help mentor you. I know that the stories and pictures of bigboarstopper, EvBouret, and the other dog guys here on JHO make it look easy, but hunting with coursing dogs requires a lot of skill and knowledge; I would argue that it requires even more skill than if hunting without dogs. The reason for this is simple...not only must you know the habits of the game you hunt, but you need to know how a dog "thinks", harness its instincts, and channel those instincts into a productive hunting partner. These guys are successful because they know what they are doing. They know dogs and they know hogs. They have the drive to get out in the hills on a very regular basis. They have what it takes.

Ultimately, I do strongly suggest that you strike out on your own and find some land that has a viable population of hogs to hunt. Though not as easy to find or catch necessarily, hogs can and do thrive on public land. But certainly private property is the most effective way to go; the quality of the land, potential absence of brush, and lack of competition will surely enhance your experiences. Finding a hunting lease or rancher/farmer with a pig problem may take some time, but would definitely be a worthwhile endeavor if you intend to stick with this for some time.

Baypen events are quite popular in the South and in Texas, and the sport seems to be something potentially popular out here. Though I do not know of any personally, I have heard of some folks offering bay pen opportunities in the past. The hogs are not wild and the setting looks like a rodeo arena, so it is by no means the ideal simulation of the real thing. Just like bulls, these hogs are livestock that know when they have to turn on before they get to turn off and go about their lazy way. However, it may serve to give your dog a chance to learn a couple things and give you an indication of your dog's potential.

Hunting with hounds can be a very expensive proposition when you consider all of the time and money that is put into it, but as my drug of choice, it satisfies my addiction quite nicely. Besides, it doesn't harm my memory, my lungs, my liver, or my skin complexion like the rest of that crap out there. Okay, so I admit that it does hamper my ability to get a full night's sleep on a regular basis...

As a side note, in addition to my own dogs, I train and foster shelter dogs for adoption. Other than spending time outdoors with my kids, I like nothing better than sharing my back country experiences with my dogs.

Dogs can irritate you, embarass you, frustrate you, and maybe even cause you to consider quitting, so being a dog lover is an absolute must. In our world, it's the relationship with the dog that draws us to answer this calling, not the animal we hunt nor the increased success this method may bring us when done right...that's why we identify ourselves as houndsmen moreso than as hunters. Just as having aptitude and potential is critical for developing into a good dog, they are equally important for developing into a good houndsman. It sounds like you just might have the makings. Now go out and get that exposure.

 

[RIFLEMAN]

bigboarstopper,

rifleman makes me jealous. He always sounds so much smarter than me when he posts

Though I have managed to fool a few people over the years, you shouldn't confuse me being verbose and rambling with being intelligent! :crazy-eyes:

 

[DirtAddict]

Thanks Guys! That's a lot to chew on. Being a working/family man I'll probably end up going the finished dog route to start my pack in the right direction. That makes a lot of sense even if I had all the time in the world to train my animals (which I don't). In the meantime I'll continue the training with my beginner dog and be looking to expose her to some pigs on a more routine basis. We'll see if she's got what it takes.

You are right it's a big commitment...worth it though. :thumbs up2:

 

[DirtAddict]

Progress Report

Just thought I'd share a progress update. The pup is starting to show some promise in the woods. I was hunting a trail this weekend when my dog catches a scent and bolts off the trail. She starts sniffing around the edge of the woods more then finds what she's looking for and disappears into the thick forest. I follow. She's working the track fast...very exciting trying to keep up! We get to the first area...man those pigs smell. All dug up with fresh pig scat. From the way the area looked, I must have just missed them. Did I say the area stunk? My dog proceeds to roll in it. Now she stinks.

Then she follows a trail to two more wallows/rooting areas. We keep tracking, then fom there she takes off into an area of thick scrub. I am excited because this is where the pigs typically bed down and it's about that time (mid morning). The dog is running through it. You can see the elevated excitement in her movements. Now, I am practically stopped in my tracks trying to get through.

I don't hear any barking, and the dog comes back about 5 minutes later. I think she came back for me. I'm the weakest link!

I think once we hunt together more often, she'll be more likely to work the trail harder. Once she sees a pig she'll bark at least so I know she's got something eyed. She barks at every other animal she sees that isn't a dog, so I bet she'll do what her instinct tells her.

Hope to have some great pork pics soon! Until then, here's a few of my time in the woods. Hunting with dogs is certainly an exciting way to hunt a pig!

Cheers!

 

[bigboarstopper]

Sounds good. How far did your dog range out from you? Starting dogs from scratch is a difficult task. My hat is off to you.

 

[DirtAddict]

Hi Bigboarstopper. When the trail was a little "colder" she didn't get much past 25-50 meters in the fairly thick woods. Generally I could see hesitation here and there as she was trying to figure out the scent trail. Other times it was clear she was waiting to make sure I was following her.

When the scent got stronger, she was definitely out of sight, but in the thick brush, that's not necessarily that far. My estimation was that she traveled not farther than 100 meters or so, before probably hesitating and coming back.

Right now we're still shaking things out. It's a dog/human communication thing that's still developing. Normally I am the boss. That is, where I go, she follows. However in the woods she needs to know that when finding pigs, she is the boss. Meaning I follow her. I think the ranging will get longer as she matures and gains experience. Her confidence level will increase and she will come to truly understand the "special rules" during a hunt.

But what I think will really change things is when she gets some direct experience with what's at the end of the track. The excitement I saw in her during the trail is going to go through the roof when she links a hot scent with the intensity of the bay. It will drive her farther to get that pig.

At least that's the plan right now. Of course, I really can't say for sure how she is going to react hoof to paw with a wild pig. I gotta have faith in her instinct and hope that I can ease her into it (at least a little) before she faces a really nasty one.

 

[DirtAddict]

Grawes Scent

By the way, just a quick comment. In my first post I mentioned noticing my dog picking up on deer scent in the field even though I had been training her on boar. I recently switched from using some cheaper boar scent (urine based I think), to Grawes glandular wild boar scent. Well, in our last few outings, my dog completely ignored all the deer sign/scent and went straight for the pigs.

There are a lot of variables during a hunt, but I gotta think switching to a fresh glandular product for training probably made a big difference. If you're training your dog for tracking wild game, I'd recommend trying Grawes Scents assuming you aren't making your own up from fresh ingredients.

 

[spectr17]

Man that sounds like fun. Nothing like watching a young hound figure out the game. Nice looking hound dog too.

 

[bigboarstopper]

sounds like your dogs really game minded. In regards to Graws scents. I have been told my many that they are the best on the market. They use glands instead of urine/fecies that the other brands use. The dogs initial ranging ability sounds good.

What was said before, try to get him some face time with a pened hog. You dont have to put the dog in the pen. He just needs to know that barking at a hog is something that wont get him in trouble and that pleases his owner. Be sure to keep this encounter with the pened hog short. Enough time to get the message that its a good thing but not long enough to get him bored. Cut him off when you think he has hit his peak of excitment coupled with a pile of praise during and after.

One suggestion thats my own opinion and may not reflect the same as others. You said when your dog first picked up a track and ran off into the forest you followed. I personally wouldnt follow when training a green dog. Its possible that he continued the track, good or bad because you were following him. I would stay at the last place he saw you when he took off. This in my opinion is a good indicator as to how "hot" or fresh the track is. The hoter it is the harder he will work it. Its possible that by following him he pushed foreward on when the track was actually going cold. Definitely give him all the time in the world to work the track. Follow if he gets far out but refrain from pushing the dog in directions by following too closely.

Like I said, my hat is off to you. Starting from scratch is extremely difficult. Even veteran hound guys have a heck of a time starting from scratch with out a veteran dog to show the new dog the ropes. Please post your updates. I look foreward to hear your progress.

 

[DirtAddict]

What was said before, try to get him some face time with a pened hog. You dont have to put the dog in the pen. He just needs to know that barking at a hog is something that wont get him in trouble and that pleases his owner. Be sure to keep this encounter with the pened hog short. Enough time to get the message that its a good thing but not long enough to get him bored. Cut him off when you think he has hit his peak of excitment coupled with a pile of praise during and after.

I couldn't agree more. However this is proving harder to do than I expected. If you have any leads on who might have a pen I can rent, or some pigs that my dog can get familiar with, please point me in the right direction. I think that if I lived in Texas or Louisiana this wouldn't be an issue at all.

One suggestion thats my own opinion and may not reflect the same as others. You said when your dog first picked up a track and ran off into the forest you followed. I personally wouldnt follow when training a green dog. Its possible that he continued the track, good or bad because you were following him. I would stay at the last place he saw you when he took off. This in my opinion is a good indicator as to how "hot" or fresh the track is. The hoter it is the harder he will work it. Its possible that by following him he pushed foreward on when the track was actually going cold. Definitely give him all the time in the world to work the track. Follow if he gets far out but refrain from pushing the dog in directions by following too closely.

This is a great point. I hadn't thought about that risk. Since my dog is also hesitating to make sure I am following her, I think there's a balance somewhere between pushing her onto a cold trail and unintentionally pulling her off a good trail because she is not sure she should be striking out on her own. I'll have to play with this a bit to find the happy middle ground.

Like I said, my hat is off to you. Starting from scratch is extremely difficult. Even veteran hound guys have a heck of a time starting from scratch with out a veteran dog to show the new dog the ropes. Please post your updates. I look foreward to hear your progress.

Thanks, although I am not out of the woods yet (pun intended):smile-yellow:. I'll definitely keep you posted and hope to show off some pics of a successful hunt in the near future.