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Speckmisser
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After reading this article a second time, I gotta say that, while I agree 100% with the sentiment that poachers get off too easy, there must be more than one side to this story.
First of all, in CO (according to the guides I hunted with out there), you don't have to fence or post your property. It was a recurrent issue on my last hunt, because the national forest land is punctuated with little fingers of private land... and you WILL be prosecuted if you cross that invisible border. Problem is, even people who live there aren't always sure where those borders are. We went over plat maps and GPS coordinates and did our best... but I can sure see where there could be confusion. At least in CA, NC, and SC...the other states I hunt most frequently, the law puts the onus on the landowner to show ownership with signs, fences, or cultivation/agricultural development.
Yes, I agree... as an ethical hunter you SHOULD know where you are at all times. And as such, I don't disagree with the conviction on tresspassing charges in the case cited here.
Second of all, the article never mentions if the DOW was able to establish where the animal was actually shot. If the guy's story is true, then the conviction on tresspassing charges and subsequent dismissal of the poaching and Sampson charges was appropriate.
As with most of these articles, there's really a lot that's left unsaid. I can imagine a ton of scenarios with either the Guide or the perpetrator coming out "in the clear". Unfortunately, the justice system doesn't revolve on what I can imagine... it revolves around what happened in the case and what was PROVEN in the courtroom.
First of all, in CO (according to the guides I hunted with out there), you don't have to fence or post your property. It was a recurrent issue on my last hunt, because the national forest land is punctuated with little fingers of private land... and you WILL be prosecuted if you cross that invisible border. Problem is, even people who live there aren't always sure where those borders are. We went over plat maps and GPS coordinates and did our best... but I can sure see where there could be confusion. At least in CA, NC, and SC...the other states I hunt most frequently, the law puts the onus on the landowner to show ownership with signs, fences, or cultivation/agricultural development.
Yes, I agree... as an ethical hunter you SHOULD know where you are at all times. And as such, I don't disagree with the conviction on tresspassing charges in the case cited here.
Second of all, the article never mentions if the DOW was able to establish where the animal was actually shot. If the guy's story is true, then the conviction on tresspassing charges and subsequent dismissal of the poaching and Sampson charges was appropriate.
As with most of these articles, there's really a lot that's left unsaid. I can imagine a ton of scenarios with either the Guide or the perpetrator coming out "in the clear". Unfortunately, the justice system doesn't revolve on what I can imagine... it revolves around what happened in the case and what was PROVEN in the courtroom.
Speck,
I agree with you. While in WY we found spots where it was hard to determine if it was BLM or private. We even had a GPS and current maps. We would just have to makes sure that we were well onto the public side, even though it was impossible to tell exactly where the line was. Even with fences, in the West there are millions of miles of fences on public lands that are used for grazing leases. The fences do not necessarily mean that they separate public from private lands. Whether it is a required law or not, if landowners do not want hunters on their land, just put up a few signs where their property borders public land. Is that too much to ask? Tresspass laws need to to have more clear definitions and not be so vague. I realize it is the right of the hunter to know where you are, but when you are talking pinpoint locations and a relatively minute difference of several yards, that can be very difficult to do. Some simple signs would solve the problem.
I agree with you. While in WY we found spots where it was hard to determine if it was BLM or private. We even had a GPS and current maps. We would just have to makes sure that we were well onto the public side, even though it was impossible to tell exactly where the line was. Even with fences, in the West there are millions of miles of fences on public lands that are used for grazing leases. The fences do not necessarily mean that they separate public from private lands. Whether it is a required law or not, if landowners do not want hunters on their land, just put up a few signs where their property borders public land. Is that too much to ask? Tresspass laws need to to have more clear definitions and not be so vague. I realize it is the right of the hunter to know where you are, but when you are talking pinpoint locations and a relatively minute difference of several yards, that can be very difficult to do. Some simple signs would solve the problem.
YORT40
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Heres another similar situation from this years hunt. A friend stuck a 6x6 bull which ran off. They tracked the bull until after dark. The next morning they still were unable to find the bull, but the quide felt like the animal may have crossed into private property. So they called off the search. As it turns out, the ranch owner on the private property found the bull dead 3 days later. The bull scored 345 & the rancher charged my friend $1,500.00 to claim the rack.
Don't quote me on this, but my friend was told after the fact, that if a guide or hunter needs to access private property for a downed animal, a call into DFG will bring them to the property. And they should be able to escort the hunter on to the property to get the animal. If this is true, this poacher had a simple solution to claim his trophy.
Don't quote me on this, but my friend was told after the fact, that if a guide or hunter needs to access private property for a downed animal, a call into DFG will bring them to the property. And they should be able to escort the hunter on to the property to get the animal. If this is true, this poacher had a simple solution to claim his trophy.
Speckmisser
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Too late, I quoted you.
Seriously, though... in most states the wildlife officials or law enforcement officers can only go so far as to speak to the landowner for you. They CANNOT force the landowner to let you onto the property, nor can they escort you against the property-owner's will. I know this is the case in CA and NC, and would be willing to bet that it's the case in CO, as that state is very protective of landowner rights.
Without going too far off-topic on this thread, I would venture that, if the hunting community didn't place such an emphasis on "trophy" animals and if the hunt for trophies hadn't become such a high-dollar enterprise, crap like this wouldn't come up half as often.
Too late, I quoted you.
Seriously, though... in most states the wildlife officials or law enforcement officers can only go so far as to speak to the landowner for you. They CANNOT force the landowner to let you onto the property, nor can they escort you against the property-owner's will. I know this is the case in CA and NC, and would be willing to bet that it's the case in CO, as that state is very protective of landowner rights.
Without going too far off-topic on this thread, I would venture that, if the hunting community didn't place such an emphasis on "trophy" animals and if the hunt for trophies hadn't become such a high-dollar enterprise, crap like this wouldn't come up half as often.
YORT40
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Speck,
Thanks for the in-sight. But, this got me thinking. (which is tough to do)
On my yearly cow hunt, we use a private ranch which covers over 2,400 acres. Every year we run into the only game warden in the area. He's hard to miss at 6' 5'', about 300 lbs. with a shaved head. Anyways, because of the fact he is cruising on private proerty, does that mean he had to get permission from the land owner to do so?
Thanks for the in-sight. But, this got me thinking. (which is tough to do)
On my yearly cow hunt, we use a private ranch which covers over 2,400 acres. Every year we run into the only game warden in the area. He's hard to miss at 6' 5'', about 300 lbs. with a shaved head. Anyways, because of the fact he is cruising on private proerty, does that mean he had to get permission from the land owner to do so?
Speckmisser
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Yort, good question.
In general, law enforcement can enter private land to perform their duties. I don't know, for sure, if that includes routine patrol (I'd guess not). Most of the landowners I know do have an agreement with the DFG to allow them to patrol their property... usually in hopes of keeping poachers and tresspassers at bay. I don't know if the permission is a public-relations formality, or if it is required by law.
However, at least in the states I know best, they cannot force a landowner to allow a private citizen to cross their property.
I know there are some law enforcement folks who read this list, though, so maybe one who knows for sure might speak up.
In general, law enforcement can enter private land to perform their duties. I don't know, for sure, if that includes routine patrol (I'd guess not). Most of the landowners I know do have an agreement with the DFG to allow them to patrol their property... usually in hopes of keeping poachers and tresspassers at bay. I don't know if the permission is a public-relations formality, or if it is required by law.
However, at least in the states I know best, they cannot force a landowner to allow a private citizen to cross their property.
I know there are some law enforcement folks who read this list, though, so maybe one who knows for sure might speak up.
Hi.
This is my 1st post !!
I was working in ASpen when this happened ,and the way I saw it , the guy had
a license, there was a elk season in progress, he was in the proper unit etc,
This being the case the only law that could have been broken is tresspassing
Samson law can only apply to poaching, and I don't think he was poaching
but falls under slob hunter, which hurts the image of the image of ethical hunters
Mackman
This is my 1st post !!
I was working in ASpen when this happened ,and the way I saw it , the guy had
a license, there was a elk season in progress, he was in the proper unit etc,
This being the case the only law that could have been broken is tresspassing
Samson law can only apply to poaching, and I don't think he was poaching
but falls under slob hunter, which hurts the image of the image of ethical hunters
Mackman
It all comes down to too many hunters--too much Money in hunting--to many ski areas- too many golf courses and too many 4 wheelers- slobs and Bob's and oil companies all contribute to problems- look at prices of land/ housing and number of out of state, two week residents in CO- therein lies the problems source--
Widux
Not quite sure what that rant was about.
I used to hunt Region D in Wyoming for many years. Every year we ran into this wanna be outfitter lounge lizard that supposedly controlled the big game hunting on this ranch. We found some honey holes for mule deer near and around this ranch. Even when we were just short of a mile from this guys fence he would have his cronies drive up on us with their quads and commence to tell us we were trespassing. When I provided proof that we were not. Then they would ask how we got where we were. Normally I told them to pound sand because how we got there was perfectly legit. This went on for several years until a game warden who couldn't read a map fined all seven of us 200.00 cash on site for big game trespass.
Never went back.
I met a county sheriff up there and he told me of a similar story regarding a wounded mule deer. The rancher would not allow the hunter to retrieve the animal after it had died. The hunter via binoculars witnessed the rancher loading the animal into his truck. When the sheriff approached the ranchers house he spotted the deer hanging in his barn. The sheriff gave the rancher two choices. Surrender the deer to the hunter or come up with a legitimate tag. He gave up the deer.
Not quite sure what that rant was about.
I used to hunt Region D in Wyoming for many years. Every year we ran into this wanna be outfitter lounge lizard that supposedly controlled the big game hunting on this ranch. We found some honey holes for mule deer near and around this ranch. Even when we were just short of a mile from this guys fence he would have his cronies drive up on us with their quads and commence to tell us we were trespassing. When I provided proof that we were not. Then they would ask how we got where we were. Normally I told them to pound sand because how we got there was perfectly legit. This went on for several years until a game warden who couldn't read a map fined all seven of us 200.00 cash on site for big game trespass.
Never went back.
I met a county sheriff up there and he told me of a similar story regarding a wounded mule deer. The rancher would not allow the hunter to retrieve the animal after it had died. The hunter via binoculars witnessed the rancher loading the animal into his truck. When the sheriff approached the ranchers house he spotted the deer hanging in his barn. The sheriff gave the rancher two choices. Surrender the deer to the hunter or come up with a legitimate tag. He gave up the deer.
I guess my Rant , as you call it ,was against modern times and econmics etc of hunting--This is my 66 birthday so forgive me BUT for 25 yrs I lived and hunted in Ak where 97% of land was public till Lands Claim and Anilca when the FEDS took 30 % of our sheep range and 180 million acres for Parks ands gave subsistence rights based on RACE-- Then it became more like America except there are only 6 golf courses, 4 ski areas, lots fewer Yuppies and very few Lattes, croissants ,and pasta salads.
As folks come North from California etc it gets more crowded and some day will resemble Lower 48 but 25 yrs ago it was really nice.
As folks come North from California etc it gets more crowded and some day will resemble Lower 48 but 25 yrs ago it was really nice.
upperEA
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Dirt I see no reason to flame you what so ever, You had everyright to react the way did and why should you back down if you are in the right
I have hunted Wyoming for the past two years and have yet to run into a negative situation with the folks out there
quite the opposite, Two years ago my buddy shot a nice mulie that went from public dirt onto another ranch. We found out who owned it was and talked to the guy he took us in his pickup and helped us look for it. And when we did find it he helped drag it and use his hose at his house to wash it out. I am sure the law of averages will take over at some point and will run into one at some point and time.
I have hunted Wyoming for the past two years and have yet to run into a negative situation with the folks out there
Hi,
The hunter in question is s friend of mine and I can assure you he shot that bull on public land. I have also workr=ed closely with that D.A.' s office for quite a few years. I would not trust anyone in that office as far as I could throw them! Anything to protect it's reputation at all cost's. Anything is always someone else's fault. The D.A. did not get reelcted and is now shoveling crap somewhere out of the area, thank God!!
The hunter in question is s friend of mine and I can assure you he shot that bull on public land. I have also workr=ed closely with that D.A.' s office for quite a few years. I would not trust anyone in that office as far as I could throw them! Anything to protect it's reputation at all cost's. Anything is always someone else's fault. The D.A. did not get reelcted and is now shoveling crap somewhere out of the area, thank God!!
