Hypothetically, can you carry a .22 handgun for "rabbits or tree squirrels" while deer hunting with a rifle while in the condor range. Since a .22 is a rimfire and not a center fire round, it isn't a legal firearm for the taking of big game?
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T F Coyote
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I am not a warden, but I am a police officer. To answer the original question--can a person have lead ammo when not hunting, such as in camp and in a vehicle?--the answer is "yes." The prohibition is against possession of lead ammo only when hunting. This is from the DFG (I refuse to call it the DFW) website:
"After nearly a full year of public testimony, discussion, and environmental analyses, the Fish and Game Commission modified the Methods Authorized for Taking Big Game (Section 353, Title 14, CCR) in December, 2007 to prohibit the use of projectiles containing lead for hunting deer, bear, wild pig, elk, and pronghorn antelope in areas designated as California condor range. Modifications to Methods of Take for Nongame Birds and Mammals (Section 475, Title 14, CCR) were also adopted to prohibit the use of lead projectiles in the same areas when hunting coyotes, ground squirrels, and other non-game wildlife. These regulations become effective July 1, 2008.
If you hunt in this area, you will be required to use nonlead projectiles to hunt big-game and non-game species beginning July 1, 2008. In addition, while hunting these species in this area hunters may not possess any lead projectiles/ammunition and a firearm capable of firing that lead projectile or ammunition.
NOTE! Lead Projectiles are still legal for hunting upland game species within the nonlead zone."
As for the idea that “if the warden says you are hunting, then you are hunting,” this is not true. In court, the warden must prove you are hunting.
If you are looking for lead-free .22 LR, Winchester does make a round that is tin based. There might be others out there.
"After nearly a full year of public testimony, discussion, and environmental analyses, the Fish and Game Commission modified the Methods Authorized for Taking Big Game (Section 353, Title 14, CCR) in December, 2007 to prohibit the use of projectiles containing lead for hunting deer, bear, wild pig, elk, and pronghorn antelope in areas designated as California condor range. Modifications to Methods of Take for Nongame Birds and Mammals (Section 475, Title 14, CCR) were also adopted to prohibit the use of lead projectiles in the same areas when hunting coyotes, ground squirrels, and other non-game wildlife. These regulations become effective July 1, 2008.
If you hunt in this area, you will be required to use nonlead projectiles to hunt big-game and non-game species beginning July 1, 2008. In addition, while hunting these species in this area hunters may not possess any lead projectiles/ammunition and a firearm capable of firing that lead projectile or ammunition.
NOTE! Lead Projectiles are still legal for hunting upland game species within the nonlead zone."
As for the idea that “if the warden says you are hunting, then you are hunting,” this is not true. In court, the warden must prove you are hunting.
If you are looking for lead-free .22 LR, Winchester does make a round that is tin based. There might be others out there.
Common Sense
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Let's see, you have a deer tag and a deer rifle and a .22 with lead bullets in your vehicle that is on a dirt forest service road that is frequented by road hunters(if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck...). If the GW has reasonable belief that you are hunting, you are hunting. If you don't believe me, refuse to allow a GW to inspect your vehicles for firearms when you are on that forest service road. Game wardens don't require probable cause if they have reason to believe you are hunting. When you hunt, you loose your constitutional rights!
T F Coyote
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Since you cannot legally hunt from a vehicle, driving to and from your hunting grounds (even while in possession of lead ammo) is not hunting. Nor is pre-season scouting, camping, backpacking, etc. For instance, if you are in an area where you can legally plink/target shoot, and you are shooting at empty cans, the mere fact that you are a licensed hunter and there are ground squirrels in the area does not mean you are hunting. A warden would have to witness you actually looking for, stalking, pursuing, etc., in order to cite you.
Let’s get our legal terms in order here. Reasonable suspicion is sufficient for an investigative detention, not a citation or conviction. Even if a warden believes there is probable cause to issue a citation (which is the same as making an arrest), the case must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt to be upheld in court.
I don’t like how wardens (or any law enforcement officers) are vilified and assumed to be out to get the little guy—just to screw with them. Keep in mind that most wardens are outdoorsmen that hunt and fish.
Also, you don't "lose your constitutional rights." The fourth amendment protects against unreasonable searches. Since hunting requires a license, the courts have upheld warrantless searches of sportsmen’s vehicles, ice chests, tackle boxes, etc., to check for compliance with the provisions of that license.
I know there are a few wardens here. Please chime in.
Let’s get our legal terms in order here. Reasonable suspicion is sufficient for an investigative detention, not a citation or conviction. Even if a warden believes there is probable cause to issue a citation (which is the same as making an arrest), the case must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt to be upheld in court.
I don’t like how wardens (or any law enforcement officers) are vilified and assumed to be out to get the little guy—just to screw with them. Keep in mind that most wardens are outdoorsmen that hunt and fish.
Also, you don't "lose your constitutional rights." The fourth amendment protects against unreasonable searches. Since hunting requires a license, the courts have upheld warrantless searches of sportsmen’s vehicles, ice chests, tackle boxes, etc., to check for compliance with the provisions of that license.
I know there are a few wardens here. Please chime in.
huntingbret
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Darn Condors!!!!!!!! LOL
jackrabbit
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D7 archery season ended Sept 8. Rifle starts Sept 21. So no deer hunting now until Sept 21. If you are concerned about bears and such, I assume you are interested in carrying a centerfire handgun. Just buy some Corbon copper loads and then don't sweat the issue. A box of 20 is obscenely expensive, but if you don't shoot them just for recreation that box will last you a lifetime -- without looking over your shoulder worrying about a person with a badge, gun, and citation book!
I reload, so I have the makings for every centerfire cartridge I have. For immediacy when this law first took effect, I bought commercial copper ammo for my main carry/hunting guns and still have full unused boxes of handgun ammo. Even the rifle ammo lasts a long time if you don't "spray and pray" while hunting.
I sight in at the range with lead ammo, and then fine tune my sights with the copper stuff.
I reload, so I have the makings for every centerfire cartridge I have. For immediacy when this law first took effect, I bought commercial copper ammo for my main carry/hunting guns and still have full unused boxes of handgun ammo. Even the rifle ammo lasts a long time if you don't "spray and pray" while hunting.
I sight in at the range with lead ammo, and then fine tune my sights with the copper stuff.
You can carry a gun during archery season. Just not with a bow at the same time.
Hey, TF Coytote, there a lot of people in jail who thought that the prosecution needed to "prove with actual evidence" that the accused was actually committing a crime. Guess what - the JURY doesn't care if the evidence is based on a sketchy circumstantial observation and shaky deductive reasoning or not. Nor do they care if no one actually "saw" anything. If the officer says it was happening, that's good enough for the jury to vote guilty. Because the bad guy's "I didn't do nuthin" isn't enough to oversome the DETAILED sworn testimony of the nice, handsome police officer (in uniform no less) who would NEVER lie about a thing like that in a court of law....
As LEO you know this to be true. Circumstantial evidence has convicted more people than anything else. And, when the government says someone is guilty of a crime, they're guilty of a crime in the eyes of almost everyone even before the evidence is trotted out.
Hey, TF Coytote, there a lot of people in jail who thought that the prosecution needed to "prove with actual evidence" that the accused was actually committing a crime. Guess what - the JURY doesn't care if the evidence is based on a sketchy circumstantial observation and shaky deductive reasoning or not. Nor do they care if no one actually "saw" anything. If the officer says it was happening, that's good enough for the jury to vote guilty. Because the bad guy's "I didn't do nuthin" isn't enough to oversome the DETAILED sworn testimony of the nice, handsome police officer (in uniform no less) who would NEVER lie about a thing like that in a court of law....
As LEO you know this to be true. Circumstantial evidence has convicted more people than anything else. And, when the government says someone is guilty of a crime, they're guilty of a crime in the eyes of almost everyone even before the evidence is trotted out.
Common Sense
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Road hunting illegal??????????? Not true. I road hunt a lot, and as long as I don't fire a shot from inside my vehicle, I have not violated any law. If you have a valid tag and season is open, you are hunting -- period. Now pre-season scouting or camping or backpacking without a deer tag during season; lead ammo in your pistol is fine. (BTW, I have had more than one encounter with game wardens; and have always been treated more than fair. I my opinion wardens worry more about the spirit of the law than the letter of the law.)
PCguy760
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got my lead free handgun ammo at Turners in san marcos ........................... they didn't have any shin-calf guards to protect against rattlesnake bites ............................. but they got 5 different machetes for wacking zombies and huge tubs of apocalypse food 
I am not a warden BUT know that they do not need a warrent to search your vehicle,ice chest, backpack, etc once they have made the determination that you ar either fishing, hunting or poaching ( and that could just be a assumption based on your dress, behavior etc). If u refuse they can sieze vehicle, firearms, and flat out screw your day. I have seen it done.... I have met most of the F&W guys working my area, they as stated are outdoorsmen and now when they approach me they are usually just trying to see what the fish are biting on and where. I havent been carded in ages....................
Keep in mind If you get stopped by a game warden or other LEO and you say "well so and so on a hunting forum said that this was ok and legal" That warden or LEO is gonna laugh at you and cite you.
Advice here is mostly good advice but its best to familiarize yourself with the laws & if needed contact DFW.
Always confirm it for yourself. Ignorance is no excuse.
Advice here is mostly good advice but its best to familiarize yourself with the laws & if needed contact DFW.
Always confirm it for yourself. Ignorance is no excuse.
#1Predator
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I'm off-topic here a little bit but here's a few thoughts.
Section 86, Cal. Fish and Game Code:
“Take” means hunt, pursue, catch, capture, or kill, or attempt to hunt, pursue, catch, capture, or kill. "Attempt... to pursue" is "road hunting" (see "Common Sense" above). If I have a valid deer tag for the area and the season is open, road hunting is "take" under the FGC and all deer hunting laws apply (ammo restrictions, etc.). Lead ammo in a pistol in the vehicle? Officer discretion at that point. Remember, DFW laws are "strict liability" laws. Meaning, strict liability makes a person legally responsible for violating the law by his or her acts regardless of their intent or ignorance of the law.
Section 1006, Cal. Fish and Game Code:
The department may inspect the following:
(a) All boats, markets, stores and other buildings, except dwellings, and all receptacles, except the clothing actually worn by a person at the time of inspection, where birds, mammals, fish, reptiles, or amphibia may be stored, placed, or held for sale or storage.
(b) All boxes and packages containing birds, mammals, fish, reptiles, or amphibia which are held for transportation by any common carrier.
Vehicles were included in this statue by court decision (i.e., a boat is a vehicle, therefore all vehicles may be searched (excludes "hard-sided" RVs)). The courts determined that the statue violated the Fourth Amendment but that the violation was so narrowly restricted (only the DFW can conduct the inspection and only certain items can be inspected) that the "minimal intrusion" of the Fourth Amendment was allowed.
Section 2012, Cal. Fish and Game Code:
All licenses, tags, and the birds, mammals, fish, reptiles, or amphibians taken or otherwise dealt with under this code, and any device or apparatus designed to be, and capable of being, used to take birds, mammals, fish, reptiles, or amphibians shall be exhibited upon demand to any person authorized by the department to enforce this code or any law relating to the protection and conservation of birds, mammals, fish, reptiles, or amphibians.
This would appear to be a violation of the Fiftieth Amendment (self incrimination) but, again, the courts have said that the "intrusion" is minimal and they have allowed it. If asked by a warden, I must show all of the items listed above including any illegal game and/or equipment. If I don't, I violate this section, which is a misdemeanor. When I am placed under arrest for "not showing", the warden will then search the vehicle and everything else subsequent to the arrest for an "inventory" prior to the vehicle's (possible) seizure and impound.
Wardens have a great deal of power that is not available to other law enforcement agencies. In addition to being a State officer (able to enforce any state, county or city laws/ordinances), they are cross deputized as U.S. Fish and Wildlife Special Agents for the purposes of enforcing Federal law. Most wardens use the Teddy Roosevelt approach ("Walk softly but carry a big stick.") when dealing with the public. The low key, "Ah shucks...I'm just a fish cop" approach is a very effective way to put people at ease in a recreational setting. People get a little uptight with a "real cop" around, but a "fish cop"....he's my buddy....just a fellow fisherman or hunter in a uniform. And that is as it should be.
Section 86, Cal. Fish and Game Code:
“Take” means hunt, pursue, catch, capture, or kill, or attempt to hunt, pursue, catch, capture, or kill. "Attempt... to pursue" is "road hunting" (see "Common Sense" above). If I have a valid deer tag for the area and the season is open, road hunting is "take" under the FGC and all deer hunting laws apply (ammo restrictions, etc.). Lead ammo in a pistol in the vehicle? Officer discretion at that point. Remember, DFW laws are "strict liability" laws. Meaning, strict liability makes a person legally responsible for violating the law by his or her acts regardless of their intent or ignorance of the law.
Section 1006, Cal. Fish and Game Code:
The department may inspect the following:
(a) All boats, markets, stores and other buildings, except dwellings, and all receptacles, except the clothing actually worn by a person at the time of inspection, where birds, mammals, fish, reptiles, or amphibia may be stored, placed, or held for sale or storage.
(b) All boxes and packages containing birds, mammals, fish, reptiles, or amphibia which are held for transportation by any common carrier.
Vehicles were included in this statue by court decision (i.e., a boat is a vehicle, therefore all vehicles may be searched (excludes "hard-sided" RVs)). The courts determined that the statue violated the Fourth Amendment but that the violation was so narrowly restricted (only the DFW can conduct the inspection and only certain items can be inspected) that the "minimal intrusion" of the Fourth Amendment was allowed.
Section 2012, Cal. Fish and Game Code:
All licenses, tags, and the birds, mammals, fish, reptiles, or amphibians taken or otherwise dealt with under this code, and any device or apparatus designed to be, and capable of being, used to take birds, mammals, fish, reptiles, or amphibians shall be exhibited upon demand to any person authorized by the department to enforce this code or any law relating to the protection and conservation of birds, mammals, fish, reptiles, or amphibians.
This would appear to be a violation of the Fiftieth Amendment (self incrimination) but, again, the courts have said that the "intrusion" is minimal and they have allowed it. If asked by a warden, I must show all of the items listed above including any illegal game and/or equipment. If I don't, I violate this section, which is a misdemeanor. When I am placed under arrest for "not showing", the warden will then search the vehicle and everything else subsequent to the arrest for an "inventory" prior to the vehicle's (possible) seizure and impound.
Wardens have a great deal of power that is not available to other law enforcement agencies. In addition to being a State officer (able to enforce any state, county or city laws/ordinances), they are cross deputized as U.S. Fish and Wildlife Special Agents for the purposes of enforcing Federal law. Most wardens use the Teddy Roosevelt approach ("Walk softly but carry a big stick.") when dealing with the public. The low key, "Ah shucks...I'm just a fish cop" approach is a very effective way to put people at ease in a recreational setting. People get a little uptight with a "real cop" around, but a "fish cop"....he's my buddy....just a fellow fisherman or hunter in a uniform. And that is as it should be.
