keeping the lead out

[augnmike]

Talked to a guy at the Tejon Ranch booth at the recent shooting fair and he said that the manufacturers are going to come out with a non lead 17 hmr this coming year. That might get me to join Tejon again since my little guy really likes to shoot squirrels with the 17. Anybody heard anything about that?

Also anyone know what is available in .204 in unleaded? I reload so plain bullets will work for me.

 

[Speckmisser]

That's good to hear about the .17hmr, if your source is accurate. This is the first I've heard about a viable rimfire load, though. There are a few rimfire rounds available for range-shooting, but nothing I've heard about for use on varmints or game.

Haven't heard yet about a .204 load. The Varmint grenades are only available in .223 and .243 right now, but I would expect they'll release a .204 soon.

 

[Bluegunner]

Some of the information posted below was posted in the Texas Hog thread, but thought it applied to what is being discussed in this thread and I thought it might help someone, so posted here.

I took the time last summer to work up a load for my 22-250 that I could use for coyote, bobcat and hogs. My workup centered around using Barnes 53gr "XFB" Triple-Shock. Two powder worked well (H-380 & Varget) but after working through a number of trial rounds I settled on 35gr of Varget. This gave me consistent groupings of three shots within an inch. I then played with the seating and was able to bring most grouping down to 3/4 of an inch. The hard work payed dividends as I have downed four boars (140-240lbs.) since January 1st, all taken with one shot, none going more than 20 yards. All four were taken in the front shoulder and penetrated the shield with no difficulty. On all four their was a small entry hole but the bullet raised H*** with the hogs insides. The seating is something that you have to experiment with, what seems to work in my rifle may or may not work in yours.

If any one is interested the load workup for my Savage 22-250 was Bullet - Barnes 53gr "XFB" Triple-shock pushed along with 35gr. of Hodgdon's Varget.

It also pays to experiment with different powders and the powder companies can really help here. When working a new load for my 25-06 I called Hodgdon's about the best powder for my 25-06 and was surprised at the answer that I received. The technician recommended H-1000, he then patiently explain the because of the large case and small neck on the case that the 25-06 beed a slower burning powder to get the best performance and the maximum effect of powder.

 

[hunt hard]

On the sabot ammo is that all a non toxic ammo. I bought some hornady ballistic point slugs but on the back of the box it seems to have lead in them. Im woundering about the sabot.

 

[Speckmisser]

All sabots are definitely NOT lead-free. Most of them are regular lead rifle or handgun bullets in a large-bore sabot (shoe).

The only non-lead shotgun slugs that I know of for sure are from Barnes, or contain Barnes bullets. I'm still looking for the info I thought I had on Remington's unleaded offering, but the more I look, the more I think I might be disremembering something.

 

[hunt hard]

I found the remington premier copper solid sabot slugs from cabelas but didnt know anything about the sabot. thanks

 

[LKN4HOG]

I have also found the Barnes XXX in the Sportsman Guide catalog. Close the the going rate for mail order.

Still Co$tly.

r

 

[Franklin3]

Midway seems to offer the greatest range of unleaded ammo for us who dont reload. I just placed an order for 80rds of new federal premium w/180gr barnes MRX bullets in .300WM. Out of stock but supposed to ship by 6-20, cost was, well, lets not go there!

 

[Bwana Turtle]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

cost was, well, lets not go there!

[/b]

Cost like in : if you were being charged by a snarling grizzly you'd have to think a while before pulling the trigger ?

 

[BGH831]

If your shooting .223 or .308 you should really have a look at www.extremeshockusa.com

 

[Speckmisser]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BGH831 @ Jun 14 2007, 04:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

If your shooting .223 or .308 you should really have a look at www.extremeshockusa.com[/b]

Yeah, those would be fine if you don't mind making instant sausage out of everything you shoot...and picking copper splinters out of whatever is left.

They can call them "big game" rounds, but I wouldn't touch them with a 10' pole.
From the site: <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

The FHVL’s explosive entry characteristics make it a favorite among the hunting community, because shot placement is not as critical in order to take down game.[/b]

There's nothing good that can come out of an endorsement like that.

 

[spectr17]

LEAD BAN NOT HAPPENING THIS FALL -- jim matthews outdoor column -- 13jun07

Lead ammo ban for big game hunters is delayed until 2008

By JIM MATTHEWS Outdoor News Service

Hunters will not have to use non-lead ammunition for big game and varmint hunting this fall. While the Fish & Game Commission announced it intention to take final action on a proposed lead ammunition ban to protect California condors at its July 13 meeting in Bridgeport, any regulation adopted would not take affect until January 1, 2008.

The Commission still has the option of not adopting any change in the regulations, which would allow continued use of lead ammunition in the future, but it's looking like a majority of its members are leaning toward some sort of ban in condor range.

If adopted, hunters in these areas (the southern Sierra D-zones, the southern A zone, along with D13 and D11) would be required to use non-lead centerfire rifle bullets, muzzleloading bullets, shotgun slugs or buckshot when hunting big game, predators, and non-game animals (varmints) beginning Jan. 1, 2008. It would not affect shotgun ammunition used for hunting birds or rimfire ammunition used for hunting small game.

If the Commission goes through with a ban, it will create an enforcement and compliance nightmare, along with tons of ill will in the sporting community. Many hunters still do not know about the chronic problems lead bullet residue can cause for condors and other wildlife that feeds on gut piles of hunter-killed game. Even those who've heard about the lead-condor issue believe it is being driven by a thinly-veiled, anti-hunting, anti-gun effort, and not sound science.

The reality is that the science is sound, but that a ban is far from necessary. It all comes down to compliance. The first step in getting hunters to comply is education. The Department of Fish and Game and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service needs to initiate a broad-based public information campaign providing the science to hunters throughout the state. Second, it is a simple process for hunters to take steps to eliminate the availability of lead bullet residue to wildlife. We can shoot non-lead ammunition, which is already widely available with more option becoming available every day. Or we can clean up lead-tainted carcasses or entrails that might get eaten by condors. That latter option would allow hunters to continue to shoot lead. In time, most of us would simply switch over to lead-free ammunition, but it wouldn't be shoved down our throats and we'd know we were doing the right thing for wildlife. In other words, a ban is simply not necessary.

The education route has never been tried. There have been some small scale efforts, that proved very effective, but no broad-based effort. The DFG has never devoted a whole issue of "Tracks" or "Outdoor California" to how wildlife and condors pick up lead. They are no flyers given away with every hunting license from vendors throughout the state that show how lead bullets spin off tiny fragments as they pass through wildlife. The only web site with scientific data is a private one (www.projectgutpile.org) run by volunteers. There's a lot of whining by condor scientists, but they don't show up at sportsmen's club meetings to speak. But there's lots of blame to go around. The National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF), National Rifle Association (NRA), and Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturing Institute (SAAMI) have all been involved behind the scenes, but all have been mum on the subject or outright hostile to the science -- keeping sportsmen in the dark or giving them misinformation.

So here I am again, taking unpopular positions because they are right:

First, all hunter-conservations should advocate the use of non-lead ammunition OR encourage the cleaning up of carcasses and guts because the science is solid on lead's dangers to wildlife. But I've never advocated a ban. I've said hunters should quit whining about the lead-condor issue. It's about conservation. Sportsmen and sportsmen's groups need to stop saying there is no supporting science and/or that there are no good alternatives to lead bullets. It makes us look stupid to anyone who's done their homework.

Second, a lead ammunition ban is also wrong. It was wrong with waterfowl and it's wrong now. Voluntary compliance will have better success at protecting condors and other wildlife than a lead ammunition ban that is unpopular. Hunters will do the right thing and take pride in their conservation effort when given the information and alternatives. This position chafes with condor scientists and bureaucrats who think scrapping lead ammunition by regulation or legislation is long overdue. They don't believe anyone will do the right thing if given facts and a choice. They want a ban. They are wrong.

Both of those unpopular opinions represent the correct route to take on the lead-condor issue. I have confidence that hunters will come around to doing the right thing for wildlife. I don't have the same confidence in the Fish & Game Commission.

 

[scr83jp]

There is another solution get rid of the archaic condors & put them in a zoo where they'll be protected from their own stupidity of electrocution on high tension lines which kills more of them than lead.

 

[Franklin3]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bwana Turtle @ Jun 14 2007, 04:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

cost was, well, lets not go there!

[/b]

Cost like in : if you were being charged by a snarling grizzly you'd have to think a while before pulling the trigger ?
[/b][/quote]




Yeah that kind of cost!
"Excuse me Bear but would you mind turnin a little to the right, I only have one shot".

I dont know what came over me, I started reading the ballistic charts and couldnt help myself.
I made up for it by buying a few more boxes of midway closeout bonded bearclaw 150gr. for a mere $20/box in 300WM. get for their all gone!

My philosophy on bullets is simple get all you can! plus a few more! for every calibre you own! Then get some more! and look for sales so you can get some more. Then when you have all you can get. go get some more!

 

[billrob]

To each his own.

I swithced more than two years ago to all barnes for center fire & muzzle loader.
I think its a superior bullet.

If I'm just burning ammo at the range I use hornady or federal or bulk cabelas, and use a few of the barnes for re-sighting and actual hunting.

I think this snowball is already rolling downhill and it will be all ammo even at the range and then they will close the ranges if they can't clean up the lead fast enough and it will be fishing sinkers and lead core line next....

 

[beastslayer]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spectr17 @ Jun 14 2007, 09:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

LEAD BAN NOT HAPPENING THIS FALL -- jim matthews outdoor column -- 13jun07[/b]

How would that affect those areas that's already adopting the lead ban, like, FHL and Tejon?

 

[Speckmisser]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

How would that affect those areas that's already adopting the lead ban, like, FHL and Tejon?[/b]

No change.

 

[bobby7321]

been using barnes way before any type of ban was coming. great bullets.
i only shoot TSX and MRX now. just so happens my rifles love them too. so its an easy choice for me. seems like these other companies are going to have to do some major catchup.

request your free DVD from barnes.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/free-dvds/

 

[billrob]

bobby, I like the way it blows through that pig. It's an awesome bullet.
I've been scared of the mrx too much for my wallet.

I was on my way to the feed store for dog food and bedding over in Yucaipa and stopped in to look around at a gun store where I found some PMC's in 7mm rem mag 140 grain Barnes XLC for $24.95 a box.
Thats not too bad and they'll drop a deer in a heartbeat probably a pig too.

Until I get my re-loads all worked out, I'll use the factory loads.
I went and loaded up a bunch of 120 TSX and 150 TSX with H1000 and IMR7828 now the newly released info says IMR4831.

When I went on my pig hunt I just took some 160 grain factory loads.

This is 100yds with factory loads before the hunt.
hunthard,
I don't think I can improve them too much more (unless I want to be like that guy Monk) but the reloads are fun to make and do save money. These are good enough for heart lung shots

 

[bobby7321]

powders that have been good to me (with both mrx and tsx)
are H4831SC, H414, RL22