Owens elk hunt in trouble for archers?

[winchester270fan]

I was at a shop this past weekend and heard that the Tinemaha archery hunts are in jeapordy due to some lousy archers and an ill-informed warden. Anyone have any knowledge of this? I've been trying to pull an archery elk tag since parachute pants were in style.

 

[subfan]

DFG Elk is the man in the know around here. Drop him a PM and see what he has to say.

 

[Hunt Crazy In Ca]

yep its all true my friend......s&%t is hit the fan....really sucks guess well have to see what happens

 

[DFGELK]

Let me see if I can address some of the changes. In an effort to better manage harvest between subgoups the Department is proposing several changes to the Owens Valley hunts.
First, it is proposed to split the Lone Pine Zone along 395 creating a new zone called Whitney on one side of 395 (same overall boundaries).

Split the West Tinemaha zone (in a small portion) called Tinemaha Mountain.

Issue tags independently between West Tinemaha and Tinemaha.

The Region Wide archery tags will be changed to a mult-zone archery tag valid in Bishop, Independence, Lone Pine, Whitney, and Tinemaha Mountain. Change from either-sex to bull and cow tags.

Move archery bull from Independence to Lone Pine which is better suited to archery hunting.

Archery bull tags would be issued in Lone Pine, Tinemaha, and Whitney. It is anticipated that overall archery bull tags will stay at the same number and archery antlerless will increase slightly. Numbers are still being determined as success rates are processed and surveys are compiled.

In the Owens Valley, last year 25% of the applicants applied for archery bull tags and 41% of the bull tags (which includes either-sex) were archery only.

Things are going to change a bit as we try to better distribute harvest more appropriately between groups and not overharvest small groups of bulls. We have a capture in the Owens valley coming up where we will place GPS collars on many different subgroups to help better determine movement patterns between groups. I hope that helps a little. The proposal is just working its way to the Commission and I encourage everyone with comments to send them to the Commission. This is how the system works. I can also be reached at 916 445-9992. We are also going to go back to the mandatory orientation to solve some of the problems encountered the last couple years.

Thanks

Joe

 

[fishnhunt]

Glad to see you here in an official capacity...We very much appreciate the input!! Keep doing good things and thanks for the update!!

 

[easymoney]

dfgelk/joe,
Thanks for helping out.
Are the same number of tags going to be issued as now? And if so are they just going to be divided up amongst these different areas/zones? Or are there going to be more tag opportunities available?

 

[betelgeuse]

I listened to a warden up there bad mouth archers this year. He said something to the effect of "they should get rid of all of the archery hunts"

He said that people were flinging arrows at stupid long ranges and wounding a lot of animals. That sucks if that is the case. The archers that I know are some of the most ethical and hardest hunting guys around.

On a positive note: Thanks for the update Joe.

 

[DLS]

DFGelk, thanks for that explanation. That is helpful to know, and I am one bowhunter who appreciates your work and support for elk hunting in our state.

 

[coyote 1]

Joe Thanks for sharing the departments thoughts. I would like to share mine…..

It looks like the multi zone archery tag holders will not be able to hunt the Tinnemaha area. Is there going to be individual archery tags for those zones? If you remove all of the archery tags from the Tinnemaha zones, then you must remove all of the other tags also. You cannot discriminate against one group. That is not legal. What if an organization donates and installs “Area Closed to Hunting” signs all around the Tinnemaha West field. Then the department makes sure all of the hunters have received their hunting packets and ALL of the wardens know AND regulate all of the boundaries. This should remedy any problems without discrimination.
<o></o>
You say the archers receive 41% of the bull tags. What if the archers shoot only cow elk one year on their either sex tags? Would they then be considered cow tags? If that is the case, then the archer only receives about 25% of the “bull tags”. I say change the multi zone tags to bull tags because bow hunters don’t want to shoot a cow when the bulls are screaming everywhere. Next, have all of the archery bull tags open on the same date- The second Saturday in August. Sure the individual tag holders will have to compete with the multi zone tag holders but they all will be hunting the bulls before they are broken up. This will cause people to apply for all of the different tags- not just for the multi zone tag.
<o></o>
I personally feel the tag quota is where it should be. The bow hunter’s success rate is below 40% and the rifle hunter’s success rate is around 90%. The other 10% didn’t even show up to hunt! Rifle hunters harvest most of the animals! Sound management is done on harvest data not quota data. Really what should happen is the archery tags should be increased until the bow hunter’s success numbers equal the rifle hunter’s success numbers. Does that sound fair? There is no law stating a rifle hunter cannot apply for the bow hunting tag and vice versa. We all make our own choice. Rifle hunters choose their weapon because of the success rate. Bow hunters love the challenge of the stalk. Neither is right or wrong. It is a choice.
I could keep on going but I won’t (for now). I appreciate this Department/ Hunter conversation. It gives anyone who wants to participate the opportunity to voice their opinion. Thanks for letting me voice mine. I look forward to your response to my thoughts. Thanks Jerry

 

[DAWG]

You need to factor in demand along with harvest. If archers have half the success rate, tags should be allocated such that draw odds are roughly double. Archery draw odds are more than double rifle odds for tule elk. Demand is best estimated by number of applicants. The goal should be to please as many as possible with the limited resource. Just blindly saying divide them up without regard to demand isn't fair to all. I'm not taking the side of any harvest method, I like them all

 

[DFGELK]

Demand and success are taken into account when issuing tags that is one of the reasons you see the 25% applicants versus 41% of the tags. As I mentioned earlier one of the changes proposed is to change the either-sex tags to bull and cows. Off the top of my head no either-sex tag holder in the OV has harvested a cow but then I need to double check that. The reality is those either-sex tags are being applied for by people wanting to harvest a bull. Either-sex to bull and cow tags are being proposed for many other hunts. The greatest demand is for bull tags but there is also a demand for cow tags and it makes it easier to meet both those demands with separate bull and cow tags. It also makes it easier to target the harvest as needed. I will argue that rifle hunters can not apply for archery tags (and use a rifle) -they can not use a rifle on an archery hunt but archery can be used on a general hunt. I appreciate the input and I know I will not please all the people because that is impossible but I will do my best in working with the Regional biologists to come up with tag allocations.

Sincerely

Joe

 

[coyote 1]

Joe, I looked up the number of tags given last year and came up with the following numbers (%): 326=total tags given. The break down is as follows: General tags= 275 (84.4%), Archery tags = 30 (9.2%), Muzzle tags = 7 (2.1%), Junior tags =14 (4.3%). Of the 326 tags- 174= Bull/ either sex tags (53.4%), 152= Anterless (46.6%). I feel the quota is good where it stands. I don't thnk any cow elk have been shot on the either sex tags either. I agree the tags should be split to individual sex tags.

You never did answer if there will be any archery Tinnemaha tags. Thanks JM

 

[DFGELK]

Still working with the Region on tags but I believe none are proposed at this time.

Joe

 

[elmacho]

DFG-

I hunted the 1st archery bull @ Tinnemaha this year. Although I had a blast and killed a nice bull, I was a tad upset at what I witnessed during the valley wide archery hunt(while I was scouting), you are prolly already aware, but if you want more deail send me a pm. It would not be appropriate to post in public forum.

 

[DFGELK]

I tried sending you a message but it would not go through, please e-mail me with any information you may have, the better informed I am of what is happening the better decisions I can make.

Joe
jhobbs@dfg.ca.gov

 

[DFGELK]

I looked at the proposal again and there is archery in Tinemaha. I apologize for that (that is what I get for trying to remember and not look up stuff)

Joe

 

[TonyS]

Thanks for your posts DFG ELK.

 

[Huntr Pat]

My 2 cents= Either sex tags are apropriate for herd management purpose. Wildlife managers would prefer hunters to take a cow to balance the herd if the oportunity comes about. There is alot of older cows that needs to be taken out. As the same goes for other species like deer for example. Alot of people would rather see only bulls taken, but what happens when you over harvest mature & healthy bulls out of the gene pool, you only leave young bulls to breed. As dfg Elk mention you can't make everyone happy But I believe they are on the right track. Keep up the good work. The meat taste better on the cows anyways.

 

[coyote 1]

Hey Huntr Pat

I totally agree: to maintain a well balance herd, cows must be harvested as well as the bulls. I’m sure DFGELK can quote the optimum bull/cow ratio that is desired for each herd. The point I was trying to make is… Given the choice between a bull and a cow I will take a bull every time. I’m sure most hunters are that way. That is why I think the department should eliminate the either sex tag and provide individual bull and cow tags. The trophy hunter can apply for his bull tag of choice and the meat hunter can apply for his “tasty tag“. The only people that will not be happy are those who cannot draw one of those #%&* tags!!! (Sorry, I got a little excited). This will make the management process more precise for the department. They won’t have to guess how many people are hunting which sex. Joe, Is Mike the biologist available to discuss herd numbers? It seemed easier for me to find bull elk last year over finding cow elk. Are there more bulls in the valley than there are cow elk? Just curious. Jerry
<o></o>

 

[DFGELK]

I believe Mike should be available to talk about numbers, he is in the process of compiling them right now (or at least he should be, just kidding). 760 872-1171 and as for the Unit Biologist for Inyo County. It is not uncommon to see mainly bulls or cows on any particular hunt. They tend to separate for a big part of the year and depending on movement patterns that may be all you see or you could just flat out miss the cow group. They are not dispersed evenly over the landscape by any means and that is always a big challenge in elk hunting (just finding the animals in the zone). One of the things we were going to be looking at with the capture was movement patterns and if they have changed over the years. Knowing where different groups are at different times of the year will allow us to better refine harvest within zones. But the captures are all on hold since the helicopter crash and I am not really sure when or if we will get to complete them. Mike (Unit biologist) is a really good guy and is busting his behind trying to get a handle on what is happening with the elk in his area.

Hope that helps

Joe