Spider Bull down

[Kentuck]

This hunter paid $170,000 for the tag and reportedly big bucks to Mossback for their services.

While on their website I noticed their guide fees are as high as I would have expected. Of course, don't shoot a 400+ inch bull. Then there is a $5,000 trophy fee. Wonder what it would cost to tip all those guys?!?

I bought a hunting tape from Mossback last year and it was the first elk hunting tape I have ever quit watching part way through. I've never seen so many gut-shot/poorly shot animals on any tape. Discusted me watching some awesome animals treated that way.

 

[bpnclark]

Wmidbrook – we were told similar stories about Gila NF before we left. Also stories of guides using planes and helicopters to push elk on to public property belonging to Outfitters. I guess it was a bigger problem in 21B but we still ran into locked gates on National Forest roads in our area. I could not believe these people were getting away with it. They had the “Private Property” signs right next to the Forest Road # sign. I guess you can do what ever you want in some states.

I did a Google search on the hunters name and I came across a couple of websites where he is posing with large animals. Looks like if you got the $ you can make it into the Books several times. I don’t know if I can blame him because if I win the lottery, I’ll be doing the same thing (but without blocking other hunters).

 

[suavegato]

I don't begrudge the guy for the having the money and wanting to use it to take trophy animals... Heck, if I could, I probably would too... But, not that way. How good can you feel about taking a "record" animal unless it is 100% fair chase? It's like getting a medal in the special Olympics if you’re not physically challenged... How proud could you be if you cheated? That said, I have no idea the situation surrounding the taking of this bull? Just speculation and rumor at this point. I would however like to get the real skinny and see what the deal was? Esp. where this Bull is from? I.E. high fence “escapee” or free range etc.? Where are all of the sheds from previous years? Pix of him on public land from years past etc.? Hunters and guides seeing him out of season or during bow season… He didn’t just materialize out of nowhere, or did he?

If the later is true, I would think that somebody somewhere would have to know where he was raised and “freed” from etc. and the beans will be spilled at some point. I mean, look how much hub-bub was made of him in just the last 6 months, surely someone would have seen him before then? Doesn’t pass the smell test to me but I’ll wait to see what plays out…

 

[BOWUNTR]

This is bad... for all of us. No matter the $$$ the guy spent. IMO. Ed F

 

[hatchet1]

boy,the dude who shot him looks like a real hardcore hunter,a true sportsman by all accounts,what a joke....
i can only imagine the trauma that bull went thru,somehow i am reminded of"fred the pig"and the boy who gut shot him 9 times behind the high fence only to have his father claim world record hog...

what a shame...

 

[JNDEER]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hatchet1 @ Oct 1 2008, 07:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

boy,the dude who shot him looks like a real hardcore hunter,a true sportsman by all accounts,what a joke....
i can only imagine the trauma that bull went thru,somehow i am reminded of"fred the pig"and the boy who gut shot him 9 times behind the high fence only to have his father claim world record hog...

what a shame...[/b]

for the record the pig was let out of the pin, .... then shot

 

[suavegato]

"September 30, 2008 will be a day marked in history. On this day a great bull was taken on public land in Utah. The “Spider” bull, a pending new world record and state record was taken by Denny Austad while hunting with Team MossBack. The “Spider” bull has a gross green score of 500 4/8 inches and a net green score of 488 inches."

Sounds like a lot of drama and fluff to me....? Question, if I pen raise a world class animal, and then transport it to "public land" for execution, is it then considered a fair chase record?

 

[wingbone_2003]

Well there seems to be alot of this going on i've heard and at this point it is just a rumor of a great bull being taken in Idaho by a Bowtech Pro staffer out of Cali. who shot this bull on a high fenced operation loaded it in there truck so we will just have to watch to see if something surfaces from this as they did not take pictures on the ranch!To me this is so bad to us hunters who every season pour hours of sweat ,frustration ,money,time away from family for the honest hunting fair chase opportunities that we have as hunters to bring home some fine table fair! And as far as a record is concerned do i think this should allowed as one No!

 

[BOHNTR]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Question, if I pen raise a world class animal, and then transport it to "public land" for execution, is it then considered a fair chase record?[/b]

Amazing how things get started on this site.......Guys, this bull was NOT a pen raised animal. You should know your facts before posting crap like that. It was wild and free ranging on the Monroe unit in Utah. It was filmed by many people throughout the summer on the hill. His sheds from last year were picked up on the winter range by some folks in Utah and unfortunately, will be worth some money now. This bull was hunted during the archery and gun season on the Monroe and was not taken. He was located this week about 15 miles away from his summer home.......rutting in an area......probably a habit he made that allowed him to survive some years......until he got so big everyone and their brother was searching for him.

As for the hunt itself.....well, I'm not a fan of these "posse" guides that hire folks to scour the area offering "finders fee" for particular animals. It's wrong and will be the demise of our sport if it's not put in check. I understand the hunter spent 30 days up there and only wanted to kill this bull......which shows a lot of dedication, but when you use a posse of folks to hunt it down, it tarnishes the adventure, IMO.

I also no longer support these type of tags......and I'm tired of hearing what they do for the wildlife. PROVE it! States have been offering these governor tags for mule deer for quite a while now.......yet our deer herd is still the same.....terrible.

Auction tags that allow you to hunt anywhere in the state are fine.....as long as you hunt with the appropriate weapon for the season that is open at the time........and you should have to hunt when that unit is open, IMO. No free year-long hunt with any weapon you choose. Of course those tags will go rom $100,000 to $1000 in record time.......which the departments don't like. It's a double edge sword for our G&F.....they need the money, but pimping out our wildlife to the highest bidder is not the way to go, IMO. Okay I'm off rant now.

 

[Kentuck]

Amen BOHNTR!

 

[JNDEER]

quote]

Amazing how things get started on this site.......Guys, this bull was NOT a pen raised animal. You should know your facts before posting crap like that. It was wild and free ranging on the Monroe unit in Utah. It was filmed by many people throughout the summer on the hill. His sheds from last year were picked up on the winter range by some folks in Utah and unfortunately, will be worth some money now. This bull was hunted during the archery and gun season on the Monroe and was not taken. He was located this week about 15 miles away from his summer home.......rutting in an area......probably a habit he made that allowed him to survive some years......until he got so big everyone and their brother was searching for him.

[/quote]

I am no where near the accomplished hunter you are, but I would assume this bull if fairly old. Even with someone finding his antlers in the winter range, is it possible to say that a bull of that age and antler growth has never been seen or heard about in that area?

Granite a common joe like myself would not be telling anyone, but with all of the guides, outfitters, etc roaming those hills over all the years and to have never seen that bull....is it possible?

if you base the assumption that he is a true public land bull his whole life, than my question is answered, but just saying the bull is 8 years old, i am guessing that rack didn't get that big in one season (just a guess)...so we are looking at a couple of years with a rack like that and no one has reported any sightings of him until now..

that is my reasoning for questioning it.

 

[bpnclark]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BOHNTR @ Oct 2 2008, 07:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

States have been offering these governor tags for mule deer for quite a while now.......yet our deer herd is still the same.....terrible.[/b]

I'm not sure how much $ or how many programs can be run off the ticket price of an auctioned Mule Deer tag but Sheep tags raise a lot of money. CA Chapter of FNAWS usually auctions off 1 or 2 tags and they bring in a lot of money for the DF&G and the sheep. I personally believe this is the best and quickest way to pay for relocation projects, habitat projects and all the other projects they do. And one tag going for +$80,000 helps this happen.

Now if Mule deer tags could be sold for that price and the DF&G sold only 1-4 a year, maybe more could be done for them.

My personal feeling to help out the CA Mule/Blacktail deer populations out and to help the DF&G make a lot of $ is… auction off… MOUNTAIN LION tags! Start selling tags for those things. We’ll cut the number of lions down, bring back deer populations and it will put the fear of humans back in them again (so they'll stop attacking joggers).

As for “Spider” – the truth will come out soon. But people are bringing up a good point. That bull just didn’t get that big in 1-2 years. And is there a high fence ranch in the area? What do their bulls look like? And wouldn’t they be pissed if their “Spider” jumped the fence? Wouldn’t they be telling people that’s their bull? Was this hunt filmed? Hopefully the truth will come out soon.

 

[suavegato]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BOHNTR @ Oct 2 2008, 07:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

Question, if I pen raise a world class animal, and then transport it to "public land" for execution, is it then considered a fair chase record?[/b]

Amazing how things get started on this site.......Guys, this bull was NOT a pen raised animal. You should know your facts before posting crap like that. It was wild and free ranging on the Monroe unit in Utah. It was filmed by many people throughout the summer on the hill. His sheds from last year were picked up on the winter range by some folks in Utah and unfortunately, will be worth some money now. This bull was hunted during the archery and gun season on the Monroe and was not taken. He was located this week about 15 miles away from his summer home.......rutting in an area......probably a habit he made that allowed him to survive some years......until he got so big everyone and their brother was searching for him.
[/b][/quote]
Amazing how some people only read what they want to read and then accuse others of "posting crap online" without knowing THEIR facts! Did you read my post where I said,

<blockquote>“I have no idea the situation surrounding the taking of this bull? Just speculation and rumor at this point. I would however like to get the real skinny and see what the deal was? Esp. where this Bull is from? I.E. high fence “escapee” or free range etc.?”</blockquote>
As for the line you quoted above, it’s an ethical question NOT an accusation. No where did I allege that is what this guy did, I was just posing an interesting ethical question, similar to what has been alleged in this case and in the direction that it seems we may be headed…? This is a discussion board no? This thread just got me thinking, I wonder how long it will be, if not already, before something like that happens? So relax and take your own advice and read and do you own research before YOU spew forth accusations online, rant off!

 

[BOHNTR]

[Esp. where this Bull is from? I.E. high fence “escapee” /quote]

Sorry suavgato, but above is in FACT what you posted. That statement does, in my opinion, "suggest" that the bull may not be free ranging when you have absolutely no factual or articulable information to suggest otherwise. That's the point I was trying to make. Why even suggest it? If someone came on here and suggested that the deer in your avatar was taken behind high fence, I would feel the same way, unless they had articulable and credible information to support that statement. That's all I'm saying here.

I've already expressed my view on the style of hunt that took place.......no further discussion for me on that.......but I wouldn't make a comment on the orgin of this bull if I didn't have credible information to support it from folks that have followed this bull all summer as weel as last year. Yes, the bull put on a lot of abnormal points since last year......as did many animals in that region (Southern UT / N. Arizona) after the amount of moisture over the winter/spring/summer. It is possible. Another example of this is the giant mule deer killed on the Strip this year........grew an incredible amount of bone since last year as well.

What's fuunny is we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion (myself included) if it was a 300" bull.......JMO

 

[JNDEER]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BOHNTR @ Oct 2 2008, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

but I wouldn't make a comment on the orgin of this bull if I didn't have credible information to support it from folks that have followed this bull all summer as weel as last year. Yes, the bull put on a lot of abnormal points since last year......as did many animals in that region (Southern UT / N. Arizona) after the amount of moisture over the winter/spring/summer. It is possible. Another example of this is the giant mule deer killed on the Strip this year........grew an incredible amount of bone since last year as well.

What's fuunny is we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion (myself included) if it was a 300" bull.......JMO[/b]

thanks for your comments and input regarding the possbility of the growth on the antlers.

 

[DEERSLAM]

I know in the past that Mossback has had film and sheds of a number of bulls that they our someone else has killed yet to my knowledge there is nothing on this bull until earlier this year. Even if this bull put on 100 inches this year that means he was a 400 inch bull last year...just the type of bull that would have got a lot of attention last year. Just curious.
I'm sure The Boone and Crockett Club will do a lot of research when this bull is entered.
If this bull is a for real Utah free range elk my hat is off to the Utah Dept of Game and Fish. I'm also glad I have a dozen points for elk in UT....maybe some day.

 

[MJB]

FYI......Barnes newsletter

NEW WORLD RECORD ELK???

Undoubtedly, many of you know about the great Utah “Spider Bull” so many hunters were following this season. Well, the hunt has officially come to an end. The bull was taken by Denny Austad, a long-time supporter of Barnes Bullets and our great friend.

On the morning of Tuesday, September 30th, Doyle Moss and Team Mossback put Denny in the right place at the right time to take this magnificent trophy. He was shooting a .300 Austad II, a cartridge of his own design, loaded with 168-grain Tipped TSX’s. A quartering shot with the bullet placed slightly forward of the shoulder at just under 200 yards penetrated the length of the body, destroying both lungs and liver, anchoring the bull immediately.

Many members of the Barnes crew were fortunate enough to put our hands on the awesome rack – approximately 500 inches of horn! Official B&C scoring will take place in 60 days. This couldn’t have happened to a more grateful, humble, down-to-earth guy who counts his many blessings daily. Congratulations, Denny! Keep enjoying the ride.

 

[suavegato]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BOHNTR @ Oct 2 2008, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

[Esp. where this Bull is from? I.E. high fence “escapee”[/b]

Sorry suavgato, but above is in FACT what you posted. [/b][/quote]
Well first of all, let’s take the WHOLE quote and NOT just the part that you portioned out that on it’s own is in an entirely different context… here is the whole sentence…
<blockquote>“I would however like to get the real skinny and see what the deal was? Esp. where this Bull is from? I.E. high fence “escapee” or free range etc.?”</blockquote>

With the entire quote, it takes on a whole new meaning doesn’t it? And the one that I intended when I wrote it. Clever how you left out the whole first qualifier, “I would however like to get the real skinny and see what the deal was?” and cut the last part short to remove the OR part of the either/or statement I was making… “or free range etc.?”

Anyway, taken IN context and in it’s entirety, clearly I wasn’t saying that I had any knowledge nor did I allege that this Bull was a high fence raised animal. Did I question about it? Sure did, as have many here. But there is a BIG difference between scrutinizing something that seems fishy and being accused of needing to know my facts before posting “crap like that”? How is one supposed to get facts without inquiring? Which is what I was doing. With a little jaded perspective, perhaps, but still just inquiring nonetheless and NOT accusing. Isn’t what you just did to my quote above tantamount to the same thing that you have accused me of? Just a thought…

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BOHNTR @ Oct 2 2008, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

That statement does, in my opinion, "suggest" that the bull may not be free ranging when you have absolutely no factual or articulable information to suggest otherwise. That's the point I was trying to make. Why even suggest it? If someone came on here and suggested that the deer in your avatar was taken behind high fence, I would feel the same way, unless they had articulable and credible information to support that statement. That's all I'm saying here.[/b]

You’re right, my statement does “suggest” that I suspect something may not be right… but I also wrote the qualifier, “That said, I have no idea the situation surrounding the taking of this bull? Just speculation and rumor at this point.” And I also added, “If the later is true”. So I was CLEARLY not accusing, just inquiring in a jaded way… and here’s why.

Granted, I’m no Elk expert, don’t play one on TV and did not stay at a Holliday Inn Express last night but it does seem somewhat fishy to me that in this day and age there would be some more history behind a creature this big other than “last summer”. I could be wrong, I’m sure there are plenty of bulls that live and die without ever being seen my the human eye but with all of the shed hunters who know where these animals winter, you’d think there would be more than 1 set… I mean I’ve seen displays that have matching sets for big bulls for 8 or 9 years running… It just seems as if this bull appeared out of no where? Is it beyond the realm of possibility, in this day and age of farm raised high fence animals, with steroids and high protein, creatine and what ever else they feed these mutants to sell their racks that at some point in time, someone is going to try and get one of them in the book? Esp. with how much money is to be made off of a new world record! I know this is all speculation but I’m just “supposing” here… I know that I have seen it first hand in the professional bass fishing scene… where ever there is money and or glory, someone will cheat. I’m NOT saying this guy did, it’s just an interesting topic of conversation. And, I don’t think it would be that hard to perpetrate either… Say you happen to get a monster mutant on your high fence ranch, you know how much he’s worth on the other side of the fence… so you strategically place a few sheds over the winter where you know they’ll be found, and unload the animal… Esp. “if” the guy who’s going to pay, has a Gov. tag and can hunt it when no one else can or you have “goons” blocking people out etc.? I’m NOT saying that is what happened here but doesn’t it make you think? If not now, when? It just makes me sad I guess that this kind of manipulation could be or will be taking place… At any rate, BowHunter, I think we’re on the same page, neither of us like the idea of what could happen in a case like this and I just continued on with the idea out there for discussion… I hope it was legit, I hope we find out for sure and I hope this kind of thing doesn’t really happen…

I’m OUT OF HERE! Taking off for Oregon in the Am for Deer.

 

[BOHNTR]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I’m OUT OF HERE! Taking off for Oregon in the Am for Deer.[/b]

Good luck......if you kill a potential new world record, I'll fight off all the nay sayers that accuse you of taking it from behind a fence.

In all seriousness, have a good time and I hope you tip over a good one!

 

[richardoutwest]

Man I hope that I NEVER take a world record animal in my life. How does anyone know what the REAL deal around this bull??

Trophy hunting is THE WORST things any of us could get into! No-one will be happy for you, and everyone will talk crap about you.

If in fact the crew did block roads and mussle hunters out of the area, YES this is wrong and the game and fish department should have been called in.

Is the bull a high fence bull? Has anyone got pictures of this bull in a high fence? I have not seen them and until I do, I will not pass judgement. If in fact the bull turns out to be a high fence, then pass judgement.

How many times though, have you been on a big animal and the word gets out and every hunter in the area is setting up next to you? They did not do their homework, they did not put in the effort, the time or the money that you did but here they are wanting a shot. Is this right? I am sure with all the hoopla around this bull, many hunters tried to squeez their way in. I say, if they did not do their homework, be a gentleman and give them some space.

So what if the guy has the money to pay for help in taking an animal! What if this guy payed the same amount and took a 350 class bull? Would we be here on this topic?

I do not have the money to pay big bucks to aid me in my harvest, but I am not going to criticize those that do. I mean come on, am I a looser because I have a pair of 15 power Swaro's to help me find game and someone else has a lesser pair?