Stockdale Mountain

[Dakota]

And a good time was had by all..... Who cares if we bag a hog? Given grief, we could alway threaten that this will be the new designated JHP meeting point and we will be there once a month.

I would say we need a MINUMUM of a dozen people that we can count on showing up if they say they will. No, "the wife......." excuses. And don't forget the video camera in case they get snotty.

Hmm, I kind got this urge to throw tea bags in the harbor.

 

[shaginator]

Read the BLM website awhile ago, and came across a mention of a need for support in trail-building programs.

I'd surmise that it would be possible for a group of about a dozen folks to get together and build marked access trails through the narrow strips of public land that access the main area, in a trialbuilding cooperative with the BLM. My only worry is the time it might take to get this going, as there may be things like "environmental impact studies" that have to be made...

 

[Speckmisser]

Contact the Hollister BLM office. The BLM usually has a short training class for certified volunteers, after which you become an official, unpaid, BLM employee. In addition to being able to work on things like the trail building projects, volunteers get perks like free BLM quad maps, and occasionally are allowed access into restricted areas.

I did my BLM volunteer training in Winnemucca, NV and had a blast. Haven't done any official work in a couple of years, but the certification doesn't expire. You only work as much as you want to, but they want to track your time on projects. They also provide equipment on organized projects, including radios, quad-runners (additional certification required), and GPS.

I hadn't thought about it, but an organized group might be able to do their own project... such as staking out the boundaries of BLM parcels like Stockdale Mtn. Good idea, Shaggy!

 

[songdog]

You'd really chap his britches if you cleared a parking lot and put up a big "BLM trailhead" sign

 

[Dakota]

Just left a message with "someone that would know about that" at the Hollister office. We will see where it goes. A couple other calls wouldn't hurt.

 

[shooter44]

Interesting thread. Isn't the road to stockdale imppassible in wet weather though? We've had just a bit of rain lately!

 

[MrMullen]

Originally posted by Dakota@Dec 19 2002, 12:19 PM
Just left a message with "someone that would know about that" at the Hollister office.   We will see where it goes.  A couple other calls wouldn't hurt.

I also just ordered the Holister Information Packet. The information on it can be found at http://www.ca.blm.gov/hollister/maps_hollister.html.

With this we will be able to say, "Here is your map, and if it is not correct that is your responsiblity since you control where the access points are and publishing the maps."
There has to be some way that we can lean on the BLM and make them make it clear. It just seems really stupid that a bunch of tax payers have to play "Where is my public land."

 

[Speckmisser]

MrMullen,

Actually, many of the BLM maps include disclaimers, since boundaries can switch annually. The last part of the disclaimer makes clear that it is up to the individual to make sure they are on public land.

I'm really liking the idea of a BLM project, led by a bunch of JHPers to go in and mark boundaries and trail. That would be a big benefit.

 

[MrMullen]

Originally posted by Speckmisser@Dec 20 2002, 06:23 PM
Actually, many of the BLM maps include disclaimers, since boundaries can switch annually. The last part of the disclaimer makes clear that it is up to the individual to make sure they are on public land.

While I am not a lawyer, I don't think that legal disclaimers really hold much water. I learned in Business Law in College that, most of the time, people, companies and the Government put those disclaimers on since it actually makes people think they can't sue when actually they can. They hold no legal protection what so ever.

My question is, how do boundaries move? In the time of the GPS and such, it seems imposible, unless the boundary is a river or stream.

 

[Speckmisser]

I don't care much one way or another about lawsuits. I figure if I've been warned, then I've been warned. It's my own responsibility to heed that warning or to face the consequences. How other people utilize (or don't utilize) helpful information is up to them. That's my only point in pointing out the disclaimers. Bottom line is, lawsuit won't mean jack when the DFG warden or county sherriff is writing you a ticket for tresspassing.

As to the changing boundaries... BLM is constantly doing land swaps, purchases, and sales. Check out the Federal Register sometime... it seems like an almost daily event. They don't update the maps every time they purchase or liquidate a property. Many of the maps in the last batch I saw were pre-1995. Check the dates on the next ones you look at.

 

[rtbx15]

I am thinking of a worst case scenario, but what would the procedure be once one was cited for trepassing? Would it be like a speeding ticket where one had the option of admitting guilt and mailing in the fine? Or is a personal appearance in the designated court required or optional? I am not a lawyer (thank God, no offense to anyone) but it seems to me that to be found guilty of this offense, some intent would have to be proven. I would think a set of maps and a GPS would tend to show that a person was making their best effort to comply with the boundries as they are and the law as well. Also, would the complaining party (the rancher) be required to attend court and press charges or would the appearance of the F&G warden only be required? The thought of going to court is certainly not a pleasant one but I am just thinking ahead to all the possibilities. It is public land that we pay taxes for and we should have the right to use it responsibly. If the rancher did have to appear in court every time he requested someone be cited and a lot of people started using this area,well he could find himself busy with a new hobby, yes? Just a thought......

 

[Speckmisser]

RTBX,

I believe some of the guys on the list here have had closer brushes with this than I have, however I am pretty sure a tresspassing ticket offers the option of going to court or paying the fine. Going to court in a case like this is a pretty good idea, especially if you've made the effort to get maps and GPS. Like I think I said earlier, you'll lose a work day, but the payoff is probably gonna be worth it.

I don't believe the rancher has to go to court in this case... only the officer who wrote the citation.

 

[bohunter3]

regarding court, the land owner would not have to appear at first, but the officer who wrote the ticket would.
If the landowner has you on private property, try to move to where u are sure its public property before the officer arrives. This make the landowner the only witness, not the officer. Then the land owner has to make a citizens arrest. This will require the landowner to appear in court with you.
Just because the landowner says "dont' move" does not mean you have to stand there and wait for the officer. If they block you in, don't get crazy. Explain to the officer you did not realize your mistake and tried to leave but, they prevented you. This will help you in court.
If you have to go to court, do as much research as to why the proprty is marked or not marked properly. Also take picture if you can, the judges like it if they see you have made an effort to prove your case. This may help you in court, but I cant make any promises.
Being a police officer, if it looks questionable I usually try to talk the land owner into a warning. If that trespasser has not been an idiot to me and is polite it helps convince them. But remember if the landowner insist on an arrest, thats what the ticket means, the officer has no choice. The officer must do it by law. hope this helps some

 

[Bishop]

Actually in Calif. if the case go's to trial the victim (prop. owner) would have to testify that he is the lawful owner or agent of the owner, and that you did not have permission to be on the property. If the property is not legally posted or under cultivation, you can only be cited/arrested if you refuse to leave after being told to.
Someone's ranch is no differant than your yard. Someone walks onto your property, you can't have them arrested/cited. If you tell them to leave and they refuse, then you have a tresspassing violation.

 

[DILPRXO]

On a serious note...the info passed on in this thread is very interesting and informative.Maybe what we need to do is to pool some/all the ideas suggested for our own benefit.I'll admit that my knowledge of Gps units,digital cameras etc is lacking...but what about if we as a group tried to get the most up to date info from BLM as mrmuellen and dakota mentioned,digest it...actually plan a JHP day there for the purpose of documenting the lack of published boundaries(Jesse mentioned 1995 as a BLM date...I've seen little metal BLM markers in that canyon that were the size of a 3"x5" card and dated 1972!)..while we're there document the layout with a photo display,gather GPS info etc. and post it all in a pinned topic on this forum for members to use.If we do it right and put a disclaimer on it, maybe it will keep someone out of trouble when they go there or if they do get cited they can use this info to help defend themselves in court as bohunter suggested.The JHP invasion sounds wonderful though...I just finish watching a rerun of "Born in East L.A" remember the last scene when Cheech and his friends flood over the hill and the 2 patrolman panic on the radio..I thought of this post when I saw it.

 

[Dakota]

Still no return call from BLM. I will try again, and encourage others to inquire about the BLM volunteer program as well.

 

[bubba]

This reminded me of a discussion we had earlier this year. The Stockdale mountain issue came up then also. The following are excerpts from a hunter and what he experienced in that area concerning this landowner:

"I was out of water...lost...98 degree...and just wanted to get to safety (my fault, I under estimated the terrain and was not fully prepared for my first trip there). I crossed a corner of his property (at most a 1/8 mile) and found the public trail back to my car. Yes, my chamber was open the entire time. The owner did not see me cross his property but later found my footprints on his trail. He waited for me at my car (being the only vehicle there) and greeted me there. We engaged in a friendly conversation about hunting the area. I mentioned how I under estimated the terrain and that I ran out of water while hunting, the entire time not knowing he was the owner. I even asked him if he had any referrals for local guides. He directed me to a local shop that have the contacts. He left on a good note and drove off and I went off for a nap in my car. 30 minutes later, he came back with a warden. The warden asked if I knew I trespassed, I immediately admitted that I crossed a private property while searching for the trail back. He asked me if I saw any property signs, I said "yes". I explained my situation and I told them both that I crossed the property only after two hours of unsuccessful search for the public trail and only after I was out of water. I also mentioned that my chamber was open the entire time. I apologized to the owner. The warden did not give me a citation but he and the owner took down all my info. Again, they left on a good note and I packed up and came home. 3 weeks later, I received a letter to appear in court. To my amazement, I was fine $500. I learned my lesson. Private property is private property. Do not cross unless you have written permission from the owner"

"I learned that it wasn't the warden but the owner who submitted our info to the DA. Apparently, the guy is fed up with people crossing into his property (I can understand). I spoke to a lawyer and she mentioned that the owner braggs about how many cases he has won over the years. The judge and the DA knows him very well. I didn't want to contest the charge against me because 1) I admitted to trespassing 2) no $$$ 3) no time. This was my first time being in a court, charged with misdeamnor and photographed. Going through the process, I felt like I was being accuse of a murder. "

Here is the thread discussijng this issue:
Stockdale Mt.

 

[QEU]

I was one of the unfortunate one cited last year during deer season. I warned JHPers here after I was cited. If you put a footprint on the owner's side of property, he will wait for you at your car, take your info, and report you to Kings County Court. $500 and 1 yr probation for being lost. Learned my lesson.

I believe Kestner is his name. He is a showoff, bragging about the number of cases he has won over the years. I can't wait to hear the story about the dick meeting up with the wrong people on BLM land.

Water hole at the West end of the boundary hold lots of pig signs. Be careful though, the water hole is right on the boundary line. As mentioned by another poster, only orange sticks mark the East boundary line. One minute you're on public, the next minute you're on private. Also, I counted over a hundred mountain quail that hot morning, all drinking from the only water hole up there. That morning, 1 mile to BLM parking, a 200lb pig crossed our path on the dirt road.

On court day, a group of 3 hunters from San Bernadino came with the same citations. Such a loser.

 

[wavesfr]

Yes that guy is a jerk. He runs a hunting ranch. Thats why He does'nt want anyone there. I done alot of research about it. Trying to find out how to contact him once. I finally found out & talked to him. Very pricey of course. I read an article in a hunting mag. It was titled californias pig triangle. It showed a triangle area that was the biggest pig producing areas. san luis to parkfield to monerey. Something like that. The writer told about the pigs they shot & they also took deer. One other thing I found out also is. It is on a hundred year lease. The guy took over from his grandfather. Which will expire in like 15 years now. If I recall right it was at about 20 back then. So at that time I think it is up to the government to decide what to do with it. I called several pheasant clubs & such in the area to try to find out who this guy was & how to get a hold of him. I finally did. It's like 10,000 a year membership with 1 deer & 2 pigs a yera I think it was. Which then deer we're almost gone from the area. I've heard they are slowly coming back now though.

 

[therubedog]

seems like the only way to find out what side of the property line is to wait for this guy to tell you are trespassing. sure sounds like entrapment, since he wont clearly mark the boundarys. I for one hate to let someone get over on me. I think getting a group together to mark boundarys with the help of dfg and blm (maybe the threat of a class action lawsuit on behalf of the entraped hunters) would do the trick. even if the increased activity on the area pushes every pig out of the area, at least this moron couldnt call it his own private slice of public land. As for the dfg biologist who said the place had too much cover, dont pigs need a safe (lots of cover) place to bed down? Maybe his hunting experience is limited to an occasional read of field and stream mag. now that is something that is really scarry!!!

WOOOOOOOO!!!!
therubedog