the great 35 whelen vs 338-06 elk rifle debate

[340mag]

the 338-06 and 35 whelen both potentially provide a noticeable increase in penetration and impact damage on game over the 25-06-30-06 class of cartridges provided the correct bullets are used. if you use bullets of 225-250 grain weight these cartridges do have a noticable increase in effectiveness, if you use the lighter weight bullets much of the cartridges potential usefull advantage over a 270 win-30-06 is lost. if you build a rifle Id suggest a 338-06 for the simple reason that theres a better bullet selection in well constructed bullets,most 30 cal bullets over 200 grain weight are boat tail, thin jacket target designs or round nose designs, neither is ideall for semi-long range ELK hunting.( 10-350 yards)
the 225 grain and 250 grain 338 bullets can retain a greater amount of energy at semi-long ranges than most 220grain round nose HUNTING bullets fired from a 30-06 ,there are two 338-06 rifles in use in my group of ELK hunting buddies, both have several one shot kills, both rifles are accurate,and both rifles weigh less than the magnum rifles they replaced, yet both hunters feel that no loss in effectiveness has been made, now keep in mind most ELK are killed at under 350 yards from or hunting camp/group, but I think youll see a noticable increase in effectiveness PROVIDED you stay in the 225-250 grain bullet range to take max advantage of the cartridges best feature, a great deal of penetration and relaively low recoil and rifle weight compared to some of the similar magnum rifles.the main advantage I see in these two cartridges is that you can build a lighter weight rifle than the big magnums yet still retain a gain in on target power from the comon and cheap 30-06 basic case, and rifle action and not need to burn a great deal of powder to do it, or need expensive cases, or a magnum length action.

here some info

http://www.weatherby.com/rifles/ball_338-06_A.shtml

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/33806.htm

http://www.quarterbore.com/library/articles/33806.html

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w33806.html

http://www.reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=70

http://www.tntreloading.com/item13654.ctlg

btw I hunt with a 340 mag and a 35 whelen, BOTH cartridges definatly have greater penetration than the 30-06 I used to hunt ELK with. the differance in on game performance between the 35 whelen and 338-06 is extremely small, but again theres a better selection of bullets with thicker jackets and a slight advantage in ballistic cof. in the 338 bullets
heres some 35 whelen stuff.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/350Mag_35Whelen.htm

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/35whel.htm

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/35w.html

http://www.reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=75

http://www.cybertorpedo.com/africanhunter/...zimbabwe_01.htm

http://www.rifleshooter.com/Project%20guns/Whelanpics.htm

btw if your into a slightly more exotic cartridge dont forget
9.3x62 and 9.3 x 64 use 250 g or 286 g bullets.

http://www.cpcartridge.com/9.3X62mm-P.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/9x62.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/9-3x64.htm

 

[wmidbrook]

I'm drawn to the 338-06 over the .35 Wheelen because I'm more attracted to wildcat cartridges than historical cartridges or cowboy cartridges.

The very appealing thing to me about the 338-06 or, better yet, the handful of .338-06 Improved variants is the gain in efficiency--less powder required for improved ballistics relative to the .338 Winchester or 340 Wby. Plus, no belted cartridge for the 338-06's is required.

There's no question that the .338-06 Improved family of cartridges outperforms the Wheelen ballistically. With this line, you'd still be closer to the .30-06 in terms of recoil/noise levels.

Then again, the .338 Win/Ultra & 340 Wby will outperform these considerably--the trade-off at considerably higher noise levels and recoil.

I don't think I'll enter a debate about penetration of the .30-06 v. .35 Wheelen--it's debatable though. I'll buy into the general 'killing/stopping power' of the wheelen over the 06 at distances under 200 yds though on elk-sized game.

 

[caribouhntr]

Just get a 338 WM
1 Can get ammo most places
2 If you want 338.06 velocities load down
3 Made to kill elk.

Your milage may vary
Jeff

 

[340mag]

I hunt mostly with a 340 weatherby rifle ,simply because its proven to be an almost IDEAL ELK RIFLE IN MY HANDS to fit MY PERSONAL STYLE of ELK HUNTING, (WHILE NO REASONABLE HUNTER EXPECTS POWER TO MAKE UP FOR THE LACK OF CORRECT SHOT PLACEMENT, THE 340 WEATHERBY IS A WELL PROVED CARTRIDGE,ON ELK) the 340weatherby data card I have laminated to my stock for referance data looks like this for my load
range drop...******............10mph wind drift
100...+3.36........................
200.. +3.46...2 tenths........2.7
300....-1.91...3.5 tenths....6.3
350.....-7.......4.1 tenths....8.7
400....-13.8....4.8 tenth.....11.6
450....-22.4....5.5 tenths....15
500...-33.1....6.3 tenths.....18.3
550.. -45.6...7 tenths.........23.2

I think youll find that its hard to significantly improve on those figures while still keeping a 250 grain minimum bullet weight that helps a great deal in both penetration on impact and retaind bullet weight

the basic plan is to have equipment and the skill ,practice and knowledge to make a 500 yard shot but to ALWAYS SERIOUSLY TRY TO GET INTO ARCHERY RANGE BEFORE FIRING IF POSSIABLE!
most of the other guys I hunt with want a lighter weight rifle that kicks less so most use the 338-06,35 whelen,358 win BLR or 338 win rifles, ALL WORK WELL,ALL PRODUCE EXCELLENT RESULTS
(DEAD ELK THAT DROP CLOSE TO THE BULLETS IMPACT POINT. and GREAT EXIT WOUNDS RESULTING IN SHORT BLOOD TRAILS ON THE RARE OCCASION WHEN THE ELK DO RUN SHORT DISTANCES)

 

[arizona jim]

340,

It is funny you brought this subject up as my brother & I just got back from an unsuccessful elk hunt. ....... Well actually no hunt is unsucessful if you have fun & learn something. He shot a nice 6X6 bull with his .303 Enfield 3 times at 115 yards or less, & it still did not prove enough to anchor it in his tracks. The hits were visible but the bull managed to make it 500 yards only to be shot by another hunter while he was blood trailing it. AZ law states that the hunter who puts the killing shot in the animal tags it, so needless to say the other hunters tagged the bull.

The lesson we learned was it would be nice to anchor the bulls in their tracks if possible, We were talking about buying or building some rifles in .35 Whelen, .350 mag, or .338-06. Don't get me wrong I have killed all 3 of my elk with a 30-06 with 1 or 2 shots. one out to 300 yds. It is just that we like to hunt them up in the thick stuff, often times kicking them out of their beds ( no quads or road hunting for us). We did not really want to go with the harder kicking magnums if we could help it because mthe majority of shots we are presented with are inside of 200 yards.

The info you provided should help us to make these decisions. Thank You !

 

[wmidbrook]

I agree~! 340, you've posted some terrific links. I have no doubt anyone of 340's caliber would be a good huntin' pardner to have along with in the woods.

 

[Dave in LB]

Arizona Jim,

Have you considered getting a Marlin 1895 Levergun in 45-70 for the kind of elk hunting your talking about. Plenty of horsepower and inside of 225 yds a true knockdown plant 'em where they are killer. Of course this is coming from a guy that has yet to hunt elk and has not blooded his 1895G either.

Just figured a easy packing quick handling lever gun with massive bullet would anchor an elk at a reasonalbe distance.

 

[340mag]

THE MARLIN 1895 45/70 makes a good elk rifle ,(IF) you can get into about 200 yards before fireing, several guys in my ELK camp have used it very successfully, but youll be giving up the potential for making some of the longer shots that occasionally present themselfs.
now don,t get me wrong, most shots are under 150 yards but how will you feel if a 400 class bull is standing at 350 yards and you have a 45/70?
while a 45/70 certainly has the bullet weight and caliber necessary the trajectory , range estimation,and your ability to place shots at that range will make exact shot placement far more critical, than if your useing a 338-06 or 340 wby
with the exact same 3.5" 100 yard zero the 338-06 will be about 16" low at 350 yards,(allowing you to place the horizontal cross hair on the ELKs back and make the shot) the 45/70 will be over SIX FEET LOW,(about 79") making shot placement difficult

 

[Dave in LB]

340,
MY comment was a direct response to the point that Arizona Jim claims All his shots on elk are at 200yds or lower. I agree with you that it's good to have a reach out and touch gun, but given his situational data of 200 yds I thought and think the 1895 in 45-70 is a valid choice as you your self have agreed. As to having only a 350 yd shot I would hae to get closer or pass up the shot even with a more capable cartridge as I am not comfortable past 200-250 yet anyway.

 

[Rick]

Well, in the past, I have used a .300 Wthby for my elk hunting. I now have a .338 Tikka that I will use, but I am also building a .358 Win for hunting in the timber, with a compact, low powered scope and a 21-inch barrel, it will be handier than the 24-inch barrels of the .300 or the .338.

 

[arizona jim]

Dave in LB,

Yes I have considered the .45-70 & also the new .450 Marlin. If I was only hunting in juniper & cedar stands with shots inside 150 yards I think they would be great for elk. I might just buy one for elk & bear just for the fun of it. (can't ever have too many rifles, just have to keep my wife believing that!) It is just that I want a rifle for the reason that .340 Mag stated. You never know when you might need that 300 + yd. shot. after all one of the 3 elk I have killed was at just over 300 yards. The 30-06 did the job, but I did have to search for it for a while, because it traveled over 400 yards into the thick stuff before it keeled over. I would have liked to see it dump over in it's tracks. An elk can go along way dead on it's feet if you know what I mean. 80 -90 % of the time we are getting within 200 yards or less, but you never now when those tracks will lead you out in the open.

.340

What is your opinion of the .338-06 Ackley Improved. If I go with the 338-06 it looks like I will be handloading anyway, so why not the A.I. - I was thinking 250 grn. bullets will give me a BC of over 400 & with the A.I. I can squeeze out another 150 - 200 FPS. If I builtd it on a Model 70 or better yet a Springfield O3-A3 action will it handle the chamber pressure. I like the qualities of controlled round feed in these actions.

AZ Jim

 

[arizona jim]

.340,

P.S. - What is the availability of cases head stamped for .338-06 ? Would you know. Does any one except Weatherby offer a factory load for it ?

 

[340mag]

first let me point out that the main idea behind the 35 whelen and 338-06 is that standard (CHEAP/AVAILABLE BRASS) in a 30-06 length and weight rifle allows you to add a measurable increase in effectiveness to an ELK class rifle over the 25-06-30-06 cartridges, but you only get that increase if you load the 225-275 grain bullets.
second, the COSTS of useing a AI set of dies and getting the AI chambering MAY significantly add to those COSTs without SIGNIFICANLY adding a great deal of performance, if your really looking to boost velocities ID SUGGEST the 338, win, 340 weatherby or 338 ultramag.

as to BRASS , IVE LOADED THOSANDS OF 35 whelens and 338-06 cartridges, they all used FREE range pick-up BRASS that said 30-06 on the head, thats the whole IDEA, FREE BRASS AVAILABLE AT MOST RANGES, in a CHEAP TO BUILD AND LOAD FOR RIFLE THAT SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES THE EFFECTIVE PENETRATION OF THE 30-06 class/weight rifles,

IF your looking for MORE PERFORMANCE, AGAIN MAY I SUGGEST THE 340 weatherby and 338 ultramag, but you lose the light handy and cheap features that make the whole 35 whelen and 338-06 so nice to use in the first place!

MAGNUMS DO HAVE THIER PLACE!.... BUT they are NOT normally built in 22" -24"barrel sporters that weight 6-7.5 lbs like a nice synthetic stock 35 whelen,338-06..ESPECIALLY if you consider that in a rifle that weights about 8.5 labs with scope your looking at about
28 ft lbs of recoil with the 35 whelen/338-06 but about 50 ft lbs in the same weight rifle in am 338-ultra mag

 

[DAWG]

I have shot several elk each with the .338 win mag and .358 norma mag.. It should be the same relative difference. I can not tell any difference between the two. They are both excellent elk cartridges. The .338 has better bullet selection, especially in the specialty line, so I give it the edge.

 

[arizona jim]

I guess one of the things I was worried about was mixing up the ammo with 30-06 ammo. I know it would not chamber, but it could be an inconvenience if you grabbed the wrong ammo before you headed out in the field. I suppose if I kept the loads separate in those plastic ammo boxes & colored the head stamp it should be safe.

 

[340mag]

theres enough differance in bullet diameter that youll never have a problem telling 30-06 from 35 whelen cartridges or 338-06, but I keep all my ammo in color coded slip top plastic 20 slot cases while hunting, with the load info on a sticker tapped the outside of the box,and since theres no one that hunts with a 30-06 in my elk camp anymore that problems never come up.

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/529209

http://www.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/applica...leitemid=529209