eddiehsf

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USO and their attorney James Scarantino are threatening to sue the AZGFD on grounds that the difference in fees between residents and nonresidents for the proposed caps are unconstitutional. You can read the letter to the Director below.


Here is the letter...


James R. Scarantino Attorney At Law 714 Montc1aire NE · Albuquerque, NM 87110 (505) 250-8754 · (505) 232-4515 Fax
December 22, 2004 Duane L. Shroufe Director Arizona Game and Fish Department 2221 W. Greenway Road Phoenix, AZ 85023-4399
Re: Proposed License/Tag Fee Ceiling Increases
Dear Director Shroufe:
I write on behalf of United States Outfitters and its many nonresident clients. We wish to share our views on the proposed statutory increases to the license/tag fee ceilings. While we understand that the proposal is phrased merely as an increase in the fee ceilings, we cannot overlook the fact that once the ceilings are raised by the Legislature, the Commission by rule making may then set the fees at any level within that range. Therefore, we view the request to increase the fee ceilings as a request by the Commission for authority to at some point in time increase the actual fees to the maximum level authorized by the Legislature.
The growing real disparity between resident and nonresident fees as reflected in the proposals is cause for great concern. Nonresidents already are being unfairly burdened by having to pay much more for the same opportunity to hunt game. This unfairness is made even worse by the fact that the majority of those hunting opportunities take place on federal public lands, lands owned and supported equally by all Americans, regardless of their place of residence. There are limits to the extent to which nonresidents can be expected to tolerate and overlook being subjected to discrimination. The proposed fee increases exceed the limits of tolerance.
Under the proposal a nonresident could be charged $775 for the same bull elk hunt for which, at most, a resident would only be charged $150. In the case of a premium bull elk tag, nonresidents could be charged as much as $3200, compared to only $350 for residents. Further examples of outrageous disparities are found throughout the proposed fee ceiling table being circulated for comments, including but not limited to the proposals concerning deer, premium deer, antelope and bighorn sheep license/tag fees.
We also wish to object to the fact that the spread between nonresident and resident could be increasing. For instance, currently nonresidents pay five times more for an antelope tag than residents. Under the proposal, nonresidents could be paying 7 times as much.
Duane L. Shroufe December 22, 2004 Page Two
Under the current fee structure, nonresidents pay 5.13 times as much as residents for a bighorn sheep tag. The proposal could increase this differential to a factor of 8.96. Nonresidents may currently purchase Class G General licenses for 4.45 times as much as the resident rate. Under the proposal, they could have to pay as much as 5.3 times for the same license. And, by way of one more example, currently residents pay 4.03 times as much as residents for a Class F Combination license. Under the proposal, they will have to pay nearly $100 more, whereas residents would at most face only a $16 additional levy.
The sheer difference in the amount that could be charged residents versus nonresidents is what makes the proposals unacceptable. There is no rational basis for the disparities. The true costs to society of a bull elk hunt, for example, are not reflected in the amount that residents could be charged. The same holds true for other species. Furthermore, it does not cost hundreds or thousands of dollars more to administer a nonresident deer, bull elk or premium bull elk hunt than it costs to administer similar resident hunts. The only plausible explanation for the differential is to (a) force nonresidents to increase their subsidy of resident hunting on federal public lands and elsewhere in Arizona and (b) to intentionally discriminate against nonresidents in access to hunting opportunities.
The disparities are so extreme we believe they are also intended as a means of defying the District Court's decision in Montova v. Shroufe. There exist many recorded declarations, including statements from the Commission, that nonresident fees would be raised to punitive levels as another means of excluding nonresidents and also retaliating against nonresidents for daring to successfully vindicate their federal constitutional rights.
Even under the United States Supreme Court decision in Baldwin v. Montana Game and Fish Commission, there are limits to the degree to which nonresidents may be subjected to discriminatory fee structures. As I need not remind you, in light of the Ninth Circuit's ruling in Conservation Force v. Manning, nonresidents can challenge Arizona's discriminatory fees under Commerce Clause strict scrutiny. Arizona would have to prove that it had no other means to serve its legitimate purposes of maintaining resident hunting opportunity and conserving wildlife except to charge the precise discriminatory fees being charged nonresidents. It would have to demonstrate that no lesser range of nonresident fees would serve those purposes. I do not think I overstate the case when I say that such a burden would be impossible to meet.
Losing a Commerce Clause challenge to discriminatory fee structures would not only expose Arizona to sizable claims for attorney fees, it would also expose Arizona to claims for monetary damages, and certainly refunds with interest to all nonresidents who had paid the discriminatory fee. This would impose additional legal and administrative costs upon the Department that would be better spent in game conservation programs.
Nonresidents already bear a disproportionate share of the costs of game management in Arizona. They do not mind paying more to some reasonable extent. But, as I said when I addressed the Commission in Safford, there are limits to nonresidents' tolerance. The Duane L. Shroufe December 22, 2004 Page Three
Commission cannot act unreasonably and expect nonresidents to acquiesce in being mistreated and callously exploited.
I note that in the explanation you have given for the fee ceiling proposals, you point to the fact that license sales fell 16% from 1998through 2003. This drop-off occurred during the period of time the Department was vigorously resisting allowing any more licenses to be sold to nonresidents. To some extent, the Department and Commission must accept responsibility for the fiscal pressures behind the need to raise license sales. Had the Department negotiated a reasonable increase in nonresident access when we first invited settlement in 1997, it likely would not be facing the same fiscal pressures it confronts today. Moreover, if the Department were to factor into its calculations increased sales to nonresidents, at fair rather than punitive license fee levels, I think you would find even less justification for the astronomical ceilings proposed for nonresident licenses. The Department could continue to benefit from nonresident subsidy of resident hunting, without forcing nonresidents to take legal action to protect their rights.
We also strongly believe that residents need to begin to pay more of a fair price for the privilege of hunting big game. There are real costs to preserving habitat and raising a large game animal to maturity. The fair market value of big game hunts is far above what residents are currently paying, or will be paying under the ceiling increase proposals. Making residents realize the true costs of game management will have the salutary result of promoting greater interest in increasing hunting opportunities by conserving more wildlife habitat. The real force driving up the costs of hunting is the conflict between an exploding human population and the need for more wildlife habitat. Nonresidents are not the cause of increased resident hunting fees; they have been and will likely continue to be a moderating force that helps hunting continue to be an affordable activity. Nonresident tolerance for the extent to which they are being exploited is, however, reaching a breaking point, leaving litigation as their only recourse.
We believe the entire proposal should be reconsidered. The Department's needs for expanded funding should be addressed with fairness to nonresidents in mind, as well as adherence to the legal restraints against discriminating against nonresidents in their access to hunting opportunities.
We hope you and the Commission will take these comments into consideration in reformulating your approach to future license fee structures.
Sincerely,
JAMES R. SCARANTINO
 

huntducks

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Coues

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If USO wins this one, can I sue Exxon because I pay $0.30 per gallon of gas than drivers in Texas?

Can I sue my homebuilder because I had to pay 2x the amount for the same house, just because mine was built 5 miles closer to the freeway?

Mr Lawyer, You ever heard of supply and demand or the free interprise system?
 

COHunter

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Is USO affiliated with PeTA ? Must be, cause they're hell bent on keeping people out of the sport of hunting. How are we gonna recruit new hunters if they cant go. I should hope that Sen. H. Reid from Neveda can push his bill through and soon. If the hunting sucks or a certain species doesn't reside in your State you either have to move or get politically active and try to change things.
 

jlostrander

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Coues-

I wish that this USO outfit would never have started all this trouble.

They are going to make it worse for all in my opinion. Arizona seemed like one of the best in my opinion before this all started.

However, your examples don't make a lot of sense to me.

First off, this is not free enterprise. It is a two tiered pricing system. The lawyer is not asking for a free system that would cause all to pay the same.

Second, your example would be more accurate if you had to pay additional cost if you were in Texas (for fuel). Texas residents pay one price you pay five times that price. I would however like to take my state to task about my state's gas prices.

I wish USO would go away on this. The efforts of USO are causing problems for residents and non-residents alike.

I have wtitten the AZ. game and fish on this subject and I suggest we all do that.

I don't want the residents of AZ. to get stuck with higher costs and I am willing to pay an amount well above what the residents pay.

I don't like having people and agencys taking to court.

Thanks!!!
 

Coues

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Free interprise: You charge what the market will bare. If you price yourself out of the market, then you either adjust or go bankrupt.

Maybe this is a better example.

Your state colleges charge residents one tuition rate, and non-residents a far higher rate. What's the difference?

Sorry, it just get's me PO'ed to think that I will have an even slimmer chance of drawing a tag in my own state because a millionair needs more money.
 

jlostrander

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I know, it makes me mad also.

What can we do, except to be envolved in the process.

We will be forced, I think in the long-run to buy the hunts. Sort of like the land owner tags. This I think is how it will end up. The public land will be just ok and the land owners will control the best areas.

I talked to a gentleman in AZ. two weeks ago. He seemed to have a lot of knowledge on this issue. He thought that eventually, AZ. would adjust the system and it would reach an equalibrium in 4 or 5 years.

Meaning your chance of drawing would be brought back to the same percentage (as a resident). Part of this comes from getting less non-residents to apply. Two things that will cause that are not having the process online and increasing the fees. Not to mention making people buy a license. These things will take away many casual applicants.

Hang in there.
 

DAWG

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What about the nonresident who has been buying the license for 10 or more years to get bonus points. He could have around $1500 invested in them now, more counting interest. He bought the license expecting prices to go up, but at sort of at the rate of inflation. He is now priced out, with elk tags jumping almost 10X in price and deer tags 6X in price ($3200 and $1200). A price jump like that is not reasonable to expect. Plus, the volunteer point devaluates points. I feel AZGFD has stolen the license fees from him. I feel that they should refund all license fees (in years that the applicant did not draw a tag) for all applicants priced out. Actually, this is the #1 reason I hate points systems. Regulations are year to year, but points are for many years. Rules can change, you do not know what you are buying.
 

eddiehsf

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DAWG Nice post, you see the light.

I just want the AZ Fish and Game and the residents to remember who their mad at, its not the NR hunters, its USO.
I am not one of their clients, so stop punishing me,
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pass rules and regs that stop USO if you must punish someone.


eddiehsf
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schmalts

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I need to add something. Since the lawsuit went down i noticed something.
When it first happened All the AZ guys asked for nonres help boycotting products, writing letters, ect. Now that it is over they are trying to get revenge on USO and have little or no care to the nonres hunter. If getting even with USO will kill the common man trying to elk hunt they dont care. They crapped on all of us who stood with them on this lawsuit even though nonresidents had plenty to gain from it.
From what i have seen on many other hunting forums i have to say i hope USO wins this one even though I was firmly against the first onel. The AZ guys need to start worring about USO and fighting them in a way that will not lose any more support from the nonres hunters that supported them.
AZ residents need to get thier F&G back on a leash and beat the arrogant crap out of them. If AZ had any brains and any balls they would go back to the table and offer a resonable tag allowance and this would all go away. But no, they are not trying to find ways to shut down uso, just ways to limit the nonresident.
I have 6 points in AZ, all bought and paid for. Now they are talking about removing my points, huge price hikes, ect. I say they lost my support.
I said before this all started that once any of this gets to a court system out of the state of AZ , AZ will lose the case.
 

Coues

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Maybe if you read the court ruling you would know that they shot down ALL NON-RESIDENT CAPS. ALL OF THEM!

There will be no cap what so ever in the upcoming draw. Not 5%, not 10%, not even 50%. 100% of the tags are open for residents of any state. Not just in AZ, either. All 9th circuit states are effected. So, when a resident of AZ, which is one state, puts in for a unit XX Elk tag, he is competing straight up with residents of 49 other states. Sound fair to you?

In fact, IF YOU READ THE RULING, you would know that the judge even acknowledged that previous rulings were in favor of a 2-tier pricing structure.

So, please, tell us all how YOU would protect the hunters of your state if this happened to you? And don't tell me you would use a 50-50 cap, because it has been ruled illegal in the 9th circuit.

AZ was one of the last states to put in draw caps. They did it because NR were drawing the vast majority of Kaibab deer tags and sheep tags.

Are you aware of what USO sued for in Nevada? They not only sued to force removement of caps, they sued the state to reemburse them for outfitting fees they have lost in PREVIOUS YEARS due to the draw caps. So, you can see, that their only intentions is to stuff their pockets with as much money as possible. They do not care that the money awarded them would be taken away from real wildlife management like water catchments, poacher patrol, etc.

They are 'looking out for the common guy"? Yeah right! They knew **** well that the fees would be going up, their clients like it that way because it gets rid of a lot of their competition.

If you have $1,500 invested in points, how do feel about Utah charging $1,500 just for the freaking tag? FIFTEEN HUNDRED DOLLARS! If Utah could get $1,500 for a bull tag, don't you think AZ could get $600?

Nevada charges $1,000. Colorado, charges more to hunt elk than AZ does right now, before any increases. And there are very few units in Colorado that come close to the quality of ELK that many AZ units offer. And you'll be sharing the mountain with 10,000 other people.
 

jlostrander

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Easy everyone. I can tell you that the next year is going to be one that is not normal.

It will get worked out and get back to equalibrium eventually.

This is serious stuff. But, the AZ. game and fish is not the bad guy in this one. They managed correctly, especially for elk. The cost was what I call low.

I makes some sense to increase the costs. $600 for non-res. elk is not out of line. However, the $3200 possible for the tag for premium elk is playing into the USO's hands.

We have to wait and see how this gets run through the courts.

Schmalts, if you decide you are not going to apply, you are playing into the USO's hands also. Although, if the price gets to a certain point, what choice do we have.

Everyone, express your views with the AZ. game and fish!!!!!

The ninth circuit is without a doubt, completely out of there minds......
 

DAWG

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What happened to making sale of wildlife parts illegal, to eliminate the commerece clause? If you look at the extra tag numbers from last year, looks like in some units, it may go up to around 30% or so nonresident with the cap removed. I agree that is too much, but I also feel 10% was too stingy. 20% is about right. With that, there may never have been a lawsuit too. NM is 22%, CO 40%, WY 20%. But none are as bad as completly gouging and pricing out a common working man. $600 would be reasonable, but $3200? give me a break. That would only be for a six day season. At least the $1500 Utah tag lets you hunt for over a month with all weapons types. And Nevada is $1200, but at least it was very high, like $600 over ten years ago when points started, so people knew what they were getting in to. If they more than double the price, they should offer a refund of previous license fees for years they drew no tags to nonresidents priced out by the new fees. That would also help get more out of the pool.
 

Coues

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Colorado and Wyoming KILL more elk every year that AZ has on the hoof.

The $3,200 is the MAX that could be legally charged. Not what will be charged. It's a political / legal mumbo jumbo thing. In AZ, the State Legislature sets the tag fees, not the G&F.

You might as well get off of the 10%, 20%, 30% stuff now, because USO has managed to make them illegal for now. The best we can hope for is that the bill in US Congress gets through and mandates that states can manage their hunting the way they see fit.

How are you going to determine if a person has been priced out of the hunt? Make them fiel tax returns and statements of net worth?

All AZ hunters are really asking for is a fair chance to hunt THEIR OWN STATE. 99% of the people that hunt do apply for out of state hunts. They have neither the means, the time, or the desire to travel long distances to hunt. They simply want to take a week or so every year to hunt, camp, spend time with their kids, etc.
 

DAWG

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No, the 30ish % is about what it is going to be in the more desirable units with the cap removed. I say that based upon the numbers of "Extra" tags last year. Up front fees, the new points gathering, the increased tag costs should drop that some. True, there is no cap, but that is what the numbers are.
 

widgnwhacker

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Again some of the NON-Residents who wish to hunt in Arizona, fail to realize what this whole issue has been driven by. PURE GREED by an outfitter that stands to make TONS OF MONEY by bringing in his high dollar clients.
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USO is to blame not the state of Arizona. For instance, I am a resident of Arizona and CANNOT apply to hunt ELK in California, so if we are going to point fingers and say that one state or another is unfair in how they manage their game animals, is it fair for the golden state to not allow NON-Residents to hunt ELK
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I will never be able to hunt TULE ELK unless I move to California and become a resident.

My brother lives in California and has always been willing to pay the NON-Resident fees in Arizona, just to have the chance at being drawn and to be able to come and hunt with my family and I if we are fortunate enough to draw a tag. Some of you guys here act like your owed something by our state
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I think NOT, don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Non-Residents hunting in the state of Arizona. You bring tons of money into our state while your visiting and how can that be wrong. I have many Non-Resident friends that come to Arizona every hunting season, wether to hunt big game or waterfowl. They always pay the prices and don't bitch and moan. I on the other hand spend the $126.00 for a Cali Non-Resident license just so I can have the chance to hunt waterfowl on the Cali side of the river, for which Im greatful and will continue to spend the money. I look at it this way, if you are truely wanting to pursue your game of choice, you will just have to pay up or go elsewhere.

There are many other states that have outrageous rates of their big game animals, just take a look around sometime.

And last but not least, if you think that USO is going to stop with just Arizona, you better wake up and smell the coffee, your state may be next on GT's list
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eddiehsf

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Hey widgnwhacker and others

I feel what USO has done is wrong, but I also feel that EVERY STATE is treating NR badly.

I have no problem with Resident getting the majority of the tags, and I have no problem paying more (with in reason for that same tag).

I would like to see ALL states set up on a 80-20 split and hold NR pricing to 3-5 times the Resident fee.

This
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of super high fees for NR plays right into USO hands. The only NR applying will be USO's and other outfitters high dollar clients.

I aplly each year in several states looking for that "GREAT" tag, but some have (Nevada ELK) almost priced me out. Utah is moving up this year if I draw
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I will pay over $700.00 for the tag. AZ price ?????

I buy a lic for your state of AZ each year and never use it just to earn a point and chance to hunt Elk or Deer. Thsi money as you noted HELPS your state!!

The one thing we all seem to agree on is that PURE GREED is a work here. AZ residnts asked for our help hurting USO bottom line by protesting, now I would like to see the residents of AZ and the AZGFD work to stop USO and others WITHOUT sticking it to the majority of NR that do not use USO.

NR are not the problem so do not punish us, Punish the guy your mad at GT
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eddiehsf
 

COHunter

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You guys are right......I wish our DOW would make it 80/20.

But they sold out to money, so we will continue to be the "Sams Club" of Elk Tags.
 

wmidbrook

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I've always taken a very unpopular stand on this issue. To me the entire resident/non-resident issue reeks of politics and greed.

It's in the states' (all states) "best interest" to make their citizens happy--resident tag price increases piss residents off. Non-residents "taking harvesting their game" pisses most of them off when it means that residents have to wait longer for their tags. It's an easy political sell for interest groups to encourage Wildlife agencies to get their needed funds by charging non-residents more. It's an easy political sell if Wildlife agencies increasingly decrease non-resident quotas. In my mind, that does not mean it's right. In fact, I'd say it's in special interests best interest....not average working guys.

Consequently, non-residents get the shaft imo. As someone mentioned here, non-residents may make up to 30% or so of tag demand for any given hunt in any given state in the west. (this is less for less popular areas, more for high demand areas).

You've got more demand than supply. And you've got States excercising 'discrimination' to keep the folks within their state happy. This is a perfect illustration of why we have a federal government....to step in when states can't resolve issues between their own constiuents and those outside their jurisdictions.

If USO hadn't filed suite, I just think it would have been some other company or person who would have one. Basically, I think it's a very well written letter to the state of AZ.

Frankly, it's nice to see some very good points come up about not knowing what you're buying when you start buying points 'cause the states can shift the rules on you.

I bet that at some point, there will be some equitable laws set by the courts that limit the extent to which non-residents subsidize non-resident tags.....

Both two-tiered structures for quota's and tag pricing never have set well with me....it's an example to me of government run Amok. It's right up their with unfair taxation, The Boston Tea Party, the recent uprising in the Ukraine and other similar highly charged, and polarized situations.

Anyway, here's to USO for having THE BALLS (and $$$ it took) to do what they did.....
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To me, this letter indicates they are in it more out of principle than $$$. Hell, they'll be 100% booked even if AZ somehow managed to triple non-resident prices.

And yes, I think California should banish two-tiered pricing and quotas for residents/non-residents even though it would hurt my chances of drawing tags and make my tags more expensive. Why, because I think the two-tiered system is for the birds and Un-American, and a Giant Spitwad in the Face of Free Enterprise and Free Trade.
 
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