Wanton Waste vs Bad Taste

[asaxon]

Why the big boar?

A couple of points:

2. If I want a meat pig, I MUST remove a big boar as well (the prop owner requires this)...thus my question. Even the property owner has said the big boars are awful.

Bruce, I have no information about this facinating topic of "Stinky Hog". However, it seems illogical that the land owner requires you to first take a big boar (male) first for if he/she is really interested in controlling the number of pigs on the property, you'd be asked to shoot two sows. Removing a male does nothing except remove that one animal as other males will breed with all the available females anyway. However, if you remove a female, you remove all downstream generations. Unless the big boars are particularly destructive to the property, it seems an odd request for animal control. Maybe you can avoid the big "Stinky Hog" problem by discussing with the land owner what he/she wants to achieve? Yes, I know I'm an optimist and expect people to act rationally....

 

[bisonic]

Have your friend apply for a depredation permit. They're not hard to get if you're a landowner and hogs are damaging your property. I believe that the rules are more lenient for permit holders - though they do encourage use of the carcass, they don't require it. See link http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/pig/depredation.html

I'm not commenting on whether this is ethical or not so please no flames. Just pointing out legal options.

 

[Stonepointer]

The big hogs would certainly present a danger to property and life in the area.

The Tehachapi area, a couple of years ago has produced some very sizable hogs (375+ pounds and more) from what I have seen from some hunter's prize kills.

The Southern culture states have had even more sizable ones at higher numbers. These animals have shown to be very dangerous by all accounts presented by popular media on the subject.

These hogs I would assume would present not just a threat to property, but livestock, pets, and in some rarer cases human life.

Depredation permits sound like a good idea, but how easy are they to get in California?

 

[dthome]

I too worry when considering how to get a kill out of harsh terrain.

I do not have a game cart, but most often when I have gone out on a hunt for something big, I have had a hunting buddy with me. We usually considered the options of tying the kill by it's legs to a stave or drag it back to our vehicle.

When by myself I have not gone after any big game, but now since my hunting partner got married, he has less time for outdoor pursuits and I have to consider how to get larger game out of the field.

I do not have an ATV with a trailer, so my options are limited. Now they are even more limited, because I will now have to do more solo hunting, which I have usually only done for small game and upland.

My options so far, is to quarter, drag, shoulder (not easy for me anymore), get a game sled (I am suspect as to how good these things might work), or in a fashion like the stave, build a travois, and haul that.

Now more than before, I will have to say to myself "That animal is too big!" Then wait for something more managable before even considering taking a shot.

Since I hunt by myself, I've devoted a considerable amount of time and thought as to how I'll recover an animal successfully. I've used a sled in the past, which is far better than dragging without, but it's still back-breaking. My latest solution involves my mountain bike. I rigged my bike rack to hold a lightweight foldable game cart. I usually bike in a couple miles, then hike in 1-1.5 more. If I kill something, I only need to hike back to my bike and retrieve my game cart. I've also been planning an approach in the event I get a bear by myself. I know the most sensible thing is to just quarter the animal (which I may end up doing), but I would prefer to get it home whole and then butcher to keep it as clean as possible. There's no way I could lift a bear into my pickup myself. So I've bolted an electric winch to the front of my pickup bed ($40 at Harbor Freight) and hooked the winch cable to 3/4" plywood that's cut to fit the floor of my bed. All I need to do is pull the plywood out of the bed so it creates a ramp up into the truckbed. I can roll a bear onto the ramp, tie it on, and with the the push of a button, the winch will pull the plywood and 600lbs. worth of animal up into the truckbed. It's pretty slick.

 

[BigSurArcher]

Depredation permits sound like a good idea, but how easy are they to get in California?

As easy as picking up the phone if you have livestock or other agriculture on your property.

 

[#1Predator]

Been there......issued citation for that

The DFG regs don't cover meat already recovered from the field. Wanton waste is the act of not recovering all the usable meat from the carcass in the field. Once it's home, it's yours to do with as you please. As I said before, we tried to cite some guys for allowing deer carcasses to rot in the cooler and the state Fish and Game office said: "there's no violation".

"Officer discretion" was involved in the case you cited. Maybe it had been a long day for the officer, maybe he/she felt charitable, maybe it was just too difficult of a case to take to the D.A. but a citation could have been issued. The "game waste" as to when the game is wasted (i.e. at home or in the field) is similar to the "possession" argument of the law. If I have five quail in my freezer from last season and I shoot ten more quail this season, I am over my possession limit of ten quail. It is the action (game waste or over limit) not the location (in the field or at home) that determines the violation.

 

[#1Predator]

The big hogs would certainly present a danger to property and life in the area.

The Tehachapi area, a couple of years ago has produced some very sizable hogs (375+ pounds and more) from what I have seen from some hunter's prize kills.

The Southern culture states have had even more sizable ones at higher numbers. These animals have shown to be very dangerous by all accounts presented by popular media on the subject.

These hogs I would assume would present not just a threat to property, but livestock, pets, and in some rarer cases human life.

Depredation permits sound like a good idea, but how easy are they to get in California?

In the Tehachapi area call DFG Biologist Bill Asserson. He works out of the Bakersfield BLM office. Dep permits are easy to get. Generally, most hunting rules apply (non-lead ammo, public safety measures, etc.) except no hunting license required, no tags, night hunting allowed (sometimes) and pursuit off of the permit holder's property is not allowed. Other restrictions can be added or subtracted from the permit (what to do with the carcass, etc.) by the issuing agent. Good luck.

 

[Deleted member 33033]

The rancher has had problems with bigger, more aggressive hogs. Regardless, it is not my call. If I wanna hunt there I gotta follow his rules. It would appear that this is "his way" of managing the hog population on his ranch. Far be it for me to tell the guy how to run his ranch, I'm just happy to be given the opp. Moving the meat is not gonna be a problem at all.

Now regarding the lousy bear meat currently filling one of my freezers...every recipe has been pretty bad. I have considered thowing it away...not even the dogs are interested in it. But that would appear to be a violation as well. Is it?

 

[#1Predator]

The rancher has had problems with bigger, more aggressive hogs. Regardless, it is not my call. If I wanna hunt there I gotta follow his rules. It would appear that this is "his way" of managing the hog population on his ranch. Far be it for me to tell the guy how to run his ranch, I'm just happy to be given the opp. Moving the meat is not gonna be a problem at all.

Now regarding the lousy bear meat currently filling one of my freezers...every recipe has been pretty bad. I have considered thowing it away...not even the dogs are interested in it. But that would appear to be a violation as well. Is it?

Short answer....yup.

 

[myfriendis410]

Short answer....yup.

I'm going to have to see more than that. I just spent an hour looking at the Fish and Game regulations and saw absolutely nothing on the subject. If you have documentation, please submit it here for all to see. I really want to know, for my use against slob hunters in the future. If not, I need to know that too.

 

[#1Predator]

I'm going to have to see more than that. I just spent an hour looking at the Fish and Game regulations and saw absolutely nothing on the subject. If you have documentation, please submit it here for all to see. I really want to know, for my use against slob hunters in the future. If not, I need to know that too.

See reply #16 in this thread (Fish and Game Code section 4304) with my explanation. The explanation (#16) is a shortened version of the judge's reasoning on finding the defendant guilty. I followed this up with another part of the judge's reasoning in reply #46 of this thread. Words like "or", "and", "nor", etc. are considered "separator" or "joiner" words in "legalese" especially in this particular section. These words are used for brevity. I tried to remove these words in #16 and gave an expanded explanation of the section. #46 is a continued explanation as well.

Many sections in the F&G Code, as well as other codes, are difficult to understand. Many people say they are written in "legalese" and they are right. Common words, like the word "take" for example, take on a different meaning in legalese than what we understand the word to mean. Commonly, if I "take" a pencil the general perception is that I have the pencil in my physical possession. But look at what the word "take" means under section 86 of the Fish and Game Code:

86. "Take" means hunt, pursue, catch, capture, or kill, or attempt to hunt, pursue, catch, capture, or kill.

This doesn't fit with my common definition. Under section 86, if I merely attempt to take the pencil, the law says it's as if I have it in my possession.

The law is complicated to say the least. But "myfriendis410" trust me on this, when it comes to the law, I will, to the best of my ability & knowledge, give an honest and correct answer. If I don't know the answer, I'll say so. I'm not perfect and I have made mistakes. Thirty-one years as a game warden, four years as a cop and twelve years (and counting) teaching wild law enforcement at the local college has taught me a lot, not the least of which is that no one is perfect. If I do make a mistake, I will point it out and correct it as soon as possible. Bad advice is worse than no advice at all.

 

[Deleted member 33033]

So if the meat is inedible and I decide to use my "take" to fertilize my garden...is that wanton waste or merely a practical application of the skanky meat? Man this is such BS!

 

[myfriendis410]

Boy, I missed that post. Thanks. The way Fish and Game interpreted that down here was to say that it applied to recovery of the animal in the field and once it was signed off on, it was the property of the "tagger" (sic). Thank you for pointing that out to me.

I'll say this straight up front: if it's in question it's going in the garbage. And, nobody is going to tell me what is an edible portion of my legally taken animal. If I think the shoulder is bloodshot I'm tossing it. If I shoot a hog and it is, in my opinion, AND MINE ALONE, inedible; it's going in the trash. I will gladly invite a duly authorized LE individual to show me the way by taking the first bite. I don't keep organ meat. I don't like liver. I don't recover the heart. I know a LOT of guys that don't. By your definition that's "Wanton Waste".

Like Bruce said: what utter BS.

 

[DFG_Bear]

Bruce,

Can't help you with your current situation of meat in the freezer, but in my opinion, I'd find another place to hunt. If a landowner wants to put me in an ethically questionable situation, such as taking an animal I have no intention to eat, I'll simply remove myself from that situation and find another place to hunt. As hunters, we all have an ethical responsibility to appreciate and wisely use the resource.

-Marc

 

[#1Predator]

So if the meat is inedible and I decide to use my "take" to fertilize my garden...is that wanton waste or merely a practical application of the skanky meat? Man this is such BS!

"Man this is such BS!" Agreed, but it is what it is and the law does have a valid purpose. I would not advise some one to violate the law but ....... let's say, just hypothetically, I use my skanky meat to fertilize my garden instead of eating it and going to the hospital. Who's going to know? Which act serves the greater good - eat & get sick or bury and grow more corn? Maybe I'm a Native American preforming a religious rite....that "circle of life" thing. Hypothetically, if I did bury the meat I would never shoot another hog or bear, at least not one in which I was obligated to use the meat. I owe that much to the animal. With a depredation permit, I am under no such obligation.

 

[#1Predator]

Boy, I missed that post. Thanks. The way Fish and Game interpreted that down here was to say that it applied to recovery of the animal in the field and once it was signed off on, it was the property of the "tagger" (sic). Thank you for pointing that out to me.

I'll say this straight up front: if it's in question it's going in the garbage. And, nobody is going to tell me what is an edible portion of my legally taken animal. If I think the shoulder is bloodshot I'm tossing it. If I shoot a hog and it is, in my opinion, AND MINE ALONE, inedible; it's going in the trash. I will gladly invite a duly authorized LE individual to show me the way by taking the first bite. I don't keep organ meat. I don't like liver. I don't recover the heart. I know a LOT of guys that don't. By your definition that's "Wanton Waste".

Like Bruce said: what utter BS.

FYI - offal (the entrails and internal organs of an animal) as well as blood shot meat is not considered "flesh usually eaten by humans" for the purposes of this section. We get a bye on that one.

 

[Common Sense]

So if i make a choice to shoot a piggie in each one of its legs before it dies thats okay??? As long as IM okay with it?? Thats bullshit.

That is your opinion. Why is your opinion fact and mine BS?

 

[Common Sense]

Your comparing flavors of ice cream vs. packing meat out or leaving it to rot?:rotflmao:

Glad to make you happy. But I do care more about icecream than boar meat!

 

[Deleted member 33033]

Bruce,

Can't help you with your current situation of meat in the freezer, but in my opinion, I'd find another place to hunt. If a landowner wants to put me in an ethically questionable situation, such as taking an animal I have no intention to eat, I'll simply remove myself from that situation and find another place to hunt. As hunters, we all have an ethical responsibility to appreciate and wisely use the resource.

-Marc

I posted questions about bear meat on a few boards before actually hunting one. All I can say is, don't believe everything you read. I'll getta nice rug out of the critter but the meat is really not what some said it was.

As for the hog, I really don't have a problem shooting a big boar for it's trophy skull mount, especially if the critter is a nusance. If the meat is not edible after grinding it into sausage then again I ask...is using it to fertilize the garden deemed wanton waste? Seriously...if we're talking about something no DFG Warden would put in his mouth, meat so vile that you simply cannot consume it, doesn't the wanton waste issue have some degree of latitude? Not every law needs to be enforced to the letter if the spirit of the law is being upheld...does it?

Option B would be to get the landowner to apply for a depred permit and go night hunting with the R25. Nightvision is allowed for that isn't it?

 

[Pro953]

Bruce I think you really hit a interesting topic here. At first I was following the line. Cant haul it don’t shoot it. Which I still think is true. But I can foresee a million exceptions and grey areas that arise. A guide was telling me a story last year about a hog that one of his hunters shot with a rifle that unknown to them had been hit in the hindquarters with an arrow months prior The hog had since developed gang green and was sickly and also smelled awful. So how would the regulations dealing with a sickly animal? You take a nice buck at 200 some yards, when you arrive to clean and haul out the animal you find that it is obviously sick. I assume this is a 1-1,000,000 scenario as I assume sick & injured animals tend to have a very short lifespan in the wild being easy prey for predators, but it sure does have me thinking…

By the way. Generally speaking what do you not like about your Bear meat? It seems like opinion is all across the map on Bear. I have a feeling just like the hogs we are discussing here some are likely better eating than others.