What would you do?

[superduty]

I dealt with this two years ago hunting elk in Chama New Mexico with my dad. There was an elk shot on the property that showed viable evedince of being shot pleanty within the property. It crossed an adjacent ranch line and was visibley falling behind the herd. She was going down! By the laws of that state under the Fair Chase Law we could retrieve the animal. I never heard any of the locals say anything about not being able to carry your weapon though. Besides I don't think I would want to aproach a wounded elk with my bare hands. I agree with Birdhunter on this. I discussed it with my wife last night who also just took her hunter and safety course last year and she says this does also apply in California and the same case for bird hunting. She said it was discussed at great length and was made perfectly clear you have the right to retieve.

 

[shadow]

I was stuck in this very situation myself a couple of months ago. My hunting lease butts up to some property that a Rancher own's that is tottally against hunting. He minds his buss. and we mind ours for the most part. In Texas we are to make every reasonable effort to retrieve our game. If it cross's on to private property you should try to contact the land owner and get his permission. Should he say no than your tuff out of luck. I was originally told no by the land owner so I called TP&W and spoke to the local game warden and stated sorry you did all you can to just go shoot another. Not wanting to accept that answer I contacted a neighbor that lives a couple of houses down from our lease and he knows the "Problem" land owner so he called and reasoned with him. Within 20 minutes I was off retreiving my hog.

You see both, the land owner who said no and the feller down the road are ranchers and see hogs as a nuscance animal, one will shoot them on site and the other will let them roam. Once he explained to the fellow rancher the situation and why he shoots them the problem owner agreed and now I get to retreive any wounded game on that property.

And all it took was a local neighbor to reason with him, as he wasn't going to listen to any out of towner.

It really does pay to get to know who lives around where you hunt. I also give the feller who lives by the lease a heads up that we may be doing some shooting or night hunting so he doesn't get surprised. I think that helped me a bit as well.

 

[chap_dog48]

Like stated contact F&G, but if you leave your rifle on the other side don't take your sweet ass time and you are 30 feet rom the fence jump over and throw it back over drag it a ways from the fence and finish the cleaning. Sorry to say that is what I would do.

 

[Speckmisser]

You have to get permission, that's the law. But despite what you've heard about that landowner, I still don't see any reason why you couldn't just go ask. Then, if he refuses, you contact the DFG and/or the Sherriff's dept.

I couldn't find anything in the F&G Codes specifically saying that a warden or sherriff could force the landowner to let you on. But it's still the "right" course of action. If you cross that wire without permission, armed or not, you're tresspassing. It will become your word against the landowner's that you didn't shoot the animal on his property... especially if he's a hard-case.

However, like the other guys have said. ... if it's in a spot where I'm reasonably sure I won't be observed and the pig is so close to the fence that I can see it, then I'd be over there hauling that sucker back to the fence rather than leave it to spoil while I dealt with the landowner and/or the authorities. Of course, I know full well the potential consequences of my actions too.

 

[F350]

Ive sent the attached to Capt. Carion of Ca. DFG enforcement section. I will post his reply as soon as it is received.

Capt. Carion,
If I may, I belong to an online Hunt club and there seems to be heavy debate over a topic.

Scenario:
While hunting private land, a hunter shoots a wild pig. The wild pig crosses onto another piece of property before dropping.
The hunter has already been told by the rancher, that the owner of the other property is "Anti-Hunter" and does not want hunters on his/her land. The hunter feels a strong moral obligation to recover his/her game.

What are the Hunter's options and/or rights?

And I promise not to bother you for a while. We weren't able to locate a specific code.
Thanks.

John (Last Nm. edited)

 

[Beerdonga]

I might be able to help you guys out a little bit on theis debate. Im a Texas Game Warden, and ive been on both sides of this situation. Ive wounded game that has crossed onto neighbors property, and I deal with people almost weekly (and during hunting season almost daily) with the same problem. One of the biggest problems with recovering that game is that you are lookng it at this problem from the perspective of a lawfull ethical hunter only trying to recover your game. What the neighboring landowner (let him be a hunter or nonhunter) sees is a person dragging a downed game under his fence or sees a drag mark and blood from you already dragging that game across. Its hard to state your case to someone when that person feels like you are violating their land. Trust me,, because that is the call that I get "soeone tresspassed on my land and shot a BLANK and I saw them drag it under my fence, OR I saw the drag marks under my fence" Believe it or not there are plenty of people out there that Hunt and Tresspass illegaly all the time. Texas law states that you cannot cross that fence without consent. If you do cross it you are commiting a class B misd.. If you cross with a gun its a class A misd.. IF you cross it and hunt and take a game animal it is a State Jail Felony. No matter which one you commit you are going to jail, it just depends on the length of time and fine amount. My only advice is that you contact the landowners before you hunt on the property and try to have a good relatonship with them, if that is not possible contacting your local warden is your best option. Even though we cannot force the neighbor to give your game back, I have been in situations in the past where I was able to talk to or reason with neighbors before and it helps on getting the game. When it comes down to it, even if the game is two feet on the other side and you can jump over and get it in 30 seconds taking that chance is a big chance when you are actualy breaking the law. If you ask for consent to cross the property and retrieve your game and they said no, well its not waste of game because you made your attempt. And when it comes down to it I dont think any hog or deer for that matter is worth me doing jailtime.....

Josh

 

[birdhunter88]

Josh,
Every state has a different sets of laws on this topic. Like I stated before here in Iowa there is no such thing as tresspassing if you are recovering downed game as long as you do it unarmed. And it doesn't matter if the land lords like it or not. But at the same time I wished we had tresspassing laws like those you have in Texas. You go armed and hunt on someone else's property and shoot some type of game then it is considered a felony.

A few years back I went quail hunting near Graham, Texas and we were hunting near a fence line. I had shot a quail that manage to make it to the other side of the fence. I went to go retrieve the bird or send my dog over and get it when one of the guys that I was with told me not to do it. He informed me of Texas law and tresspassing armed and how it was a felony. I immediately stopped and said it wasn't worth it.

The problem here is that it seems that California law is very vage(sp) or hidden as that what a hunter can do. Do they have the right to retrieve downed game ? I am still curious as to what their law is on this situation. I went to the California Department of Fish and Game and tried to find it in the regulations. Man, you talk about a confusing mess. I gave up after awhile cuz I felt like I was reading the fine print to the guts of a computer program. If it states in their law books that you can not tresspass under any circumstances then so be it. But I feel that California needs to be more informative as to what a hunter can and can not do. Their hunting regs need to be written so someone can understand them. I just find it odd that with all the California hunters here on JHO that no one can find the reg on their website. If no such regs exist then there should be one to help protect the hunter and landowner rights. Just my opinion....

bird

 

[Speckmisser]

Bird,

The CA tresspass laws are very clear and easy to understand. The fact that there doesn't appear to be a documented exception for recovery of game should also be just as clear... there isn't an exception.

It's almost certainly for the same reasons that Josh stated above. Too many people are already breaking the tresspass laws, so the handful of folks who are trying to stay legal are having to pay the price. That's why it's recommended that you contact the landowner first, to request permission, then contact law enforcement if you are refused.

The more I looked over the regs, the more certain I am that law enforcement does NOT have the right to force the landowner to let you on the property. But it certainly couldn't hurt to have a game warden right there at your side arguing your case. If the landowner still says no, then you've done everything legally available to recover your animal.

 

[superduty]

Through further research guys I must change my previous posts. I contacted Doug Updike with the Department of Fish and Game. He writes this back to me."You do not have the right to enter private property, unless you have
permission to do so. Ethically, the animal should be cleanly killed, or
the hunter should consider the possibility of a wounded animal moving
onto adjacent private land before he shoots the animal."

Hope this helps.

Thanks.
I also found out that the property must meet California law for proper posting of No Hunting or Trespassing. Personnelly it still doesn't change the way I feel. I would find a road not posted if at all possible and get my BBQ ready for the good eating.

 

[Speckmisser]

Originally posted by superduty@Mar 23 2004, 09:13 AM
"Ethically, the animal should be cleanly killed, or the hunter should consider the possibility of a wounded animal moving onto adjacent private land before he shoots the animal."

I think they must have this answer written on a post-it note, stuck to every computer at the DFG offices. Liz Schwall sent me an almost identical response when I was asking about a different situation.

But, DUH! Of course you should strive for a clean, instant kill. You should consider where a wounded animal might run. But given all the variables when you touch off a round, stuff happens. Even the best hunter jerks the trigger occasionally. Sometimes the animal zigs when you were certain it would zag. And sometimes, I honestly think the critter is just not ready to die.

And when you're hunting on a small piece of property, with other property lines all around, of course there's a possibility that a wounded animal might cross the lines. Should that preclude hunting there?

To suggest it's a question of ethics...

It's a question of "this happened.. what do I do now?" and the DFG guys should offer something just a little more helpful than this crap.

Canned answers like this infuriate me. I'll jump here, before I rant.

 

[F350]

Here is Capt. Carion's reply to my earlier question:

John,

It will never have the final answer! I use this scenario in training
new Wardens except I use deer, as the pig issue makes it actually a
little easier to answer.

The issues are two fold.

Number one: The hunter is required by law not to waste game FGC 4304;
however, only to the extent that a "Reasonable Effort" is made to
retrieve the game. Is it "reasonable" to break the law and trespass to
do so... I don't think so. However it is morally wrong!

Number two: The landowner has the right to keep people off his
property and anyone who enters without permission is in violation of
trespass PC 602, or if the person has his gun, possibly FGC 2016 Hunter
Trespass.

A side issue is if the landowner tries to keep the game that died on
their property, that makes it a little cleaner as we have a law that
makes the animal belong to the person who actually wounded the animal
and is in "Hot Pursuit" of the animal. The law makes it a misdemeanor
for someone to take the animal which by law belongs to the person who
has wounded it and is in Hot Pursuit of the animal. However, the hunter
should call DFG to make the inquiry, not enter the private property and
get in a dispute with the landowner!

What it all boils down to is the hunter needs to be resonsible enough
to not hunt near areas where this type of situation can develop and to
do whatever possible to minimize the situation.

That is the best I can do to answer that one!

Michael P. Carion
Acting Assistant Chief
Training and Administrative Services Unit
mcarion@dfg.ca.gov
916-653-7135

Hope that helps.
"Nuff Said"

 

[Speckmisser]

Good one, F350 (even if you are named after a danged oil-burning ford).

That last bit still irks me, though... as about half the places I hunt are closely bordered by private land.

 

[prohunter]

well said Josh! thank you!

 

[birdhunter88]

Well that answers that....I feel bad for you hunters in California. Don't get me wrong. We don't like tresspassing here in Iowa either. Its just that when it comes to downed game. Retrieveing takes precedence over tresspassing laws.

I understand that maybe you have a bigger problem with tresspassers in your state than what we do. And the law makers there feel tresspassing on private ground is more important than retrieving downed game. I also agree with your feelings on the canned statement
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

"Ethically, the animal should be cleanly killed, or the hunter should consider the possibility of a wounded animal moving onto adjacent private land before he shoots the animal."[/b]

I have seen some deer hit hard and still travel a long ways before they come to rest.

Oh well.... good discussion though. Hope this thread has helped some people out.

bird

 

[songdog]

The better question is what is the land owner going to do with the dead critter across the fence? Pick it up and he's now violating the law (assuming he doesn't have a tag for said deer/pig). I'd like to see the look on their face when they refuse to allow the hunter to pick up the deer in front of the warden and then go to get rid of the carcass only to be caught with a dead animal and no tag. "Sure you didn't shoot it sir, I've heard that many times before....they all say that. Died of natural causes you say? Hmmm...looks like a bullet hole to me. You do have a tag for that animal don't you? You don't, eh? Well, just so happens that this is your lucky day. There's this guy here right across the fence from you that just happens to have a deer tag for this area. Might want to give it to him to avoid a costly ticket for hunting without a tag..."

 

[spectr17]

Get the law there or a warden. I've seen some really ugly confrontations over guys who jumped the fence without waiting or shoving matches when the farmer wouldn't let the hunter get his game. With a warden there you have a nuetral 3rd party who can negotiate for you and be a witness if things get ugly.

If you think some landowners will never see you jump that fence, don't be foolish. Some of the antis walk their property lines just looking for someone to hassle.

In Missouri we have to get a warden who has the horsepower to make the landowner turn over the downed game.

The funniest time was a farmer who took the dead deer and claimed he couldn't find it. The wardens searched and searched and despite all the blood they never did find out what he did with the deer. We suspect he had a relative come down and sneak it out before the warden got access to search.

 

[jus'me]

OK, What if the "no trespassing" signs are'nt posted 3 to every mile of fence line? (in reference to speckmissers post) Are you in the clear?

 

[Speckmisser]

Welcome to JHO, Jus'me.

If the land isn't properly posted, fenced, or under cultivation, then technically, the landowner can only tell you to get off if he finds you there. Once you've been asked to leave, then you're tresspassing if you stay and (lawdogs, help me out here) if you come back.

If you know it's private property, then you do yourself a favor by not pushing the technicalities of the law. There are still a few generous souls who don't post their land, but that's getting fewer and farther between. If in doubt, your best bet is to play it safe.

 

[Hawghunter]

hey bryan,
I would have gone in and got the hog, while leaving am rifle on the other side of the fence. IF, i thought i could get away with it. I think it's far more important to recover a game animal than to waste it. Even if i got caught, I would pleade my case respectfully and not get dragged into a confrontation. Leaving behind my gear would prevent it being confinscated. Maybe unlawfull by the book, however; within the spirit of the law.
Just my thought.
Mark