What would you do?

[Speckmisser]

OK, this kinda came up in another thread, and rather than hijack the thread with a response that is sure to generate some interesting conversations, I wanted to bring it to a new thread...

OK, enough setup.

So, let's say you're humping backcountry on public land, and you hear some hounds barking and coming your way. They're getting really close, then the bushes in front of you part and a group of hogs comes jogging into the open.

Do you shoot? Or do you step aside and let the hunt play out.

Scenario two... You're out on public land, hog hunting, and you hear a gawdawful racket of yelping dogs and squealing hogs down in the bottom of a draw only a hundred yards or so from your position. Do you go check it out?

Let's say you do check it out. The dogs have bayed a pretty nice boar, but you don't see the houndsmen anywhere. Do you step in and off the hog, or do you back off and wait for the houndsman?

Keep your hypotheses and responses to public land only. Your reaction to houndsmen on private land is a different issue entirely, and not relevant to my question. Also, my guess is that there could be some significantly differing opinions on this. Please keep it civil, or I'll can the thread.

By the way, I have my own very firm convictions here but I don't want to season the pot with my own perspective just yet.

 

[UPER]

Well that's a toughie, in your first example I would probably say I would shoot. To me it would be no different then on a deer drive when other hunters are pushing the bucks to you If someone is not from your hunting party and is in the same area it is public land and he has the same right to hunt there also. As far as your second example SPECK, well that is tough but as for me if I went to investigate and found the pig bayed I would step aside and see what happened. That would be proper hunting ettiquete to me. Both are good questions and before I get dogpiled by everyone I have never hunted with or around hounds so I do not know what the proper hunting ettiquete is in either situation, so please school me folks, not flame me!!!!!!!

 

[slowpoke]

This is an interesting question.
For scenario #1 the hog would most likely get shot if it was safe to do so. It kind of feels like someone’s dog busting a pheasant out of heavy cover and it flying over me.

Scenario #2 is different to me. It is more like a dog on point and I wouldn’t interfere. Maybe kick back and see how it all plays out. Poor analogies, but I have never hunted big game with dogs and have no idea what the proper etiquette is.

 

[Shot]

Scenario one,
My first reaction would be to raise my rifle at the hog(s), but knowing that dogs are chasing the hog, I probably would not shoot. The reason being, first, I might accidently shoot a dog, second, I would at to ruin a hunt for any hunter, being a houndsman or not.

Scenario two,
I would definitely go check it out. Since the dogs don't belong to me I wouldn't want to bother with them, I have no clue about being a houndsman and I might do more harm then good by trying to help.

 

[Bishop]

I got to agree with Slow Poke. In the first scenario I would shoot the pig, unless I could see that the dogs were too close, or I could see the handlers in pursuit.

In the second scenario, if the dogs have the pig at bay, then they can hold it until the handlers come in to make the kill. Only exception I would make in this case is if it looked like the dogs were in danger of being torn up bad, or killed.

On public land if trailing dogs are running game 1/2 - 1 mile ahead of the handlers, I just don't see other hunters having to look the other way when game runs by them.

 

[BGH831]

I would #1 shoot the biggest sow for me, #2 shoot pictures and stick around to watch the fun! Maybe I would get a backstrap or rack out of it in exchange for the pictures. But to kill a houndsmans hog is to be asking for an exchange of at least words.

 

[BGH831]

Also as bishop said if you come across a bayed monster that is having his way with the dogs no houndsman in his right mind is going to be mad about you saving his dogs. Too much time and money invested to get mad at someone for saving them.

 

[bayedsolid]

Oh Spec....these "what if" scenario's. They always get us into trouble.

I should probably let a few more guys post before I throw my

in but what the heck.
I do need to say that the vast majority of hog doggers don't run open mouth hounds, they run silent dogs. If you are hearing barking it is because those dogs are looking at the hog so anything else is just heading out of the country. I suppose a guy would normally be able to tell the difference between dogs barking in one spot up the canyon while a hog runs by them a distance away from the dogs, and hounds open on track heading down the canyon toward him when a hog runs by.
Having dogs, my initial gut reaction is to say no way should a guy ever shoot anything being pursued by another mans dogs. The only problem is, Spec left the first scenario pretty vague. First of all, the chances of dogs running a group of hogs together is far less likely than running a single hog, or singling out 1 hog from the herd. Are we talking 30 hogs busting out of the brush in all directions, or 3 hogs running in a single line? Another important question would be, how far are the dogs behind the hogs. You hear barking 1/2 mile away and a big boar comes running past you, it would be pretty tough to let him walk and then listen to the dogs run up and over the other side of the canyon on a different hog.
The second scenario is pretty cut and dry. Shooting a hog out from underneath another mans dogs is grounds for more than a verbal tongue lashing in my book, and ranks right up there with getting to a buck deer that someone else shot, before they get there, and claiming it. There is never going to be a reason that would satisfy me there. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Also as bishop said if you come across a bayed monster that is having his way with the dogs no houndsman in his right mind is going to be mad about you saving his dogs.[/b]

Not so. My dogs need saving from a boar about as much as I need saving from a 30" Mule deer. The dogs know what they're doing and getting whacked up is part of the game at times. I don't want, wish, or need anyone to save my dogs from a big boar. The big boars are the whole reason I'm ever out there anyway.
If anybody ever showed up at the bay I would be more than happy to let them shoot the hog as soon as I had the situation under control and let them know where to stand and exacly when to shoot. I've never someone come all the way in but I have had guys close by before and I've always given them the hogs after. Hell, most of the time, if they're not a big boar, I let them go so I don't have to deal with 'em. That's the way I see it anyway.

 

[BGH831]

Next time any one wants to hear my ignorance just let me know

 

[bayedsolid]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Next time any one wants to hear my ignorance just let me know[/b]

I didn't mean for my post to come off sounding like an attack, which is a little bit how it sounds now that I re-read it. I'm just throwing in my view on things from a different perspective. Sorry if it came off a tad harsh.

 

[superduty]

bayed, I have only worked with dogs once before but I agree with your words of wisdom. It is an interesting scenario that brings alot of questions to mind. To make it simple,
#1: In reading this I take it that there is more than one hog involved and probably several. If I did not see the dogs or the handlers or if I felt that they scatterd and a shot could be made safely then I'm shooting. I'm on public land and before any shot is made you should know your backdrop so taking the safety into concederation I think it's fair game. If there is only one boar and those dogs are working him than I'm standing down.
#2: I might go to investigate out of pure human nature but if in doing so I observe owned animals with a bayed hog regardless of who is winning the battle for survival I would not even think of taking the shot. If the dogs get the short end of the stick and the owners don't make it in time then this is the way it should be and letting the boar even get away in my book would be what I would do. He would have at that point earned his freedom from me. Now if I see him later that day or the next then it's my turn to roll the dice of fate.

 

[Speckmisser]

Good post, Bayed. In it, you wrote...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

The only problem is, Spec left the first scenario pretty vague. First of all, the chances of dogs running a group of hogs together is far less likely than running a single hog, or singling out 1 hog from the herd. Are we talking 30 hogs busting out of the brush in all directions, or 3 hogs running in a single line? Another important question would be, how far are the dogs behind the hogs. You hear barking 1/2 mile away and a big boar comes running past you, it would be pretty tough to let him walk and then listen to the dogs run up and over the other side of the canyon on a different hog.[/b]

I left it vague intentionally. 20 hogs? 1 hog? Are the dogs close or are they over on the next ridge? Where do you draw the line? That's what I'm looking for. As a houndsman, when do you shrug your shoulders and when do you get pissed off? As a stalk or stand hunter, what are the criteria that you use to decide to shoot or not?

I will alter the first scenario to say that you have a safe shot, with a clear backstop and no hounds or hunters in the line of fire. So if safety isn't the consideration, only your ethical standards are in play.

As to the second scenario, I figure that one is an easier call. I'd go check to make sure it's hunting dogs. I'm looking for collars, vests, and breed. If it's not a pack of wild dogs, I'll hold back and watch the show. The handlers should be pretty close behind, and I have no desire to shoot a bayed hog anyway (personal choice, not a judgement on anybody else). Like someone else mentioned, shooting that animal would be like shooting the birds from someone else's pointer.

If it's pretty obviously wild dogs, I'm as likely to shoot the dogs as I am to shoot the hog. I've been around dogs enough to have a pretty good idea what strays/feral dogs look like vs. someone's pet or hunting animal. Fortunately, I haven't seen many wild dogs out in the areas I hunt in CA. I don't think they'd last long with the coyotes and lions.

And on with the show...

 

[bayedsolid]

Superduty...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I left it vague intentionally. 20 hogs? 1 hog? Are the dogs close or are they over on the next ridge? Where do you draw the line? That's what I'm looking for. As a houndsman, when do you shrug your shoulders and when do you get pissed off? As a stalk or stand hunter, what are the criteria that you use to decide to shoot or not?[/b]

I think where a person should draw the line is different in each case and there is no way any of us can come up with a rule book on exactly what to do. We are talking about public land and that throws a bit of a curve on the ball too. I really am not the best dog man that should be discussing this because I don't have hounds and all of my situations would be more like scenario #2. If a hog does break the bay and run, then there is no more barking and the dog or dogs will be a matter of feet behind the hog until they can make it stop and come to bay again usually within 50-100 yards...if it breaks at all. So if you see a hog coming out of the brush you're gonna see the dogs too. When do you get pissed off as a houndsman??? I would say when someone intentionally shoots a hog that they know is in pursuit by someone's dogs. If a bunch of hogs bust out of the brush away from where the dogs are, it isn't like the hunt is over for the dogs if you shoot a hog. That being said, if you actually see dogs and there are hogs running around I'd be livid if I heard a shot just for the safety of my dogs if nothing else. If the barking is far enough away that you cannot make certain that the hog you see is the one being pursued...I would say it's fair game and wouldn't be upset if it was me. I might be a bit different than some but I catch more hogs in a good week running the dogs than most guys kill in a lifetime so is one lost hog gonna ruin my life??....no. How often does this situation play out anyway? <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I have no desire to shoot a bayed hog anyway (personal choice, not a judgement on anybody else). Like someone else mentioned, shooting that animal would be like shooting the birds from someone else's pointer.[/b]

I understand that, and I'd feel the same way too if it weren't my dogs, or I didn't at least have a dog involved in the hunt. I feel the same way about following a guide around on a hunt. If you go where he says to go and follow him around right up until the time of the shot....I give the credit to the guide. The shooting is the easy part. I don't do what I do just kill any hogs. I do it for the dogs. If I take 5 different people out and they all shoot a hog.....it isn't like when somebody asks me how I've done for the week I'd tell them I haven't got a thing just because I wasn't the one to pull the trigger. The killing is the easy part. (make any sense) Killing a hog is just something done to complete the act....I suppose...but it really creates unwanted work at that point. Am I off topic???
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

If it's pretty obviously wild dogs, I'm as likely to shoot the dogs as I am to shoot the hog. I've been around dogs enough to have a pretty good idea what strays/feral dogs look like vs. someone's pet or hunting animal.[/b]

That may be so Spec....but that statement still makes me cringe.

 

[boarhunter67]

I'm not so sure I wouldn't shoot in both cases. I know many people will be upset with me on this and say I shot someone else's pig, but if it's on public property and the pig hasn't been shot then it's fair game as far as I'm concerned. I have been hunting pigs and bear before and been on one or seen one only to have it run off by hounds who were released in the area. What gives someone rights to an area or animal. If it hasn't been shot, it is fair game. It would be different if the hunters were there and you shot it from under them. If I am hunting an area and the houndsman know there are other hunters hunting the area (without hounds) I've never seen a houndsman who hasn't turned his hounds loose just because someone else is in the area, and every single time the hounds start barking, the animals, all of them not just the one being chased, heads for cover. Is that fair? What's fair to me is if you see an animal with nobody else around and it's legal, shoot. I've hunted with dogs and without and without dogs you have far less chance. This is all asuming you were there first. If you stop and purposely hunt where dogs are already hunting, that is entirely different. All I'm saying is if you are hunting an area first and hounds come into your area, you shouldn't have to stop hunting because they came in.

 

[Speckmisser]

Bayed,

Good discussion. I know Josh (Rifleman) is a pretty serious houndsman, and he certainly has some opinion. I also figure he's waiting for me to show my hand.

So, in the interest of getting his points on the table here are mine.

First of all, I'll lay out the groundwork about my experience with hounds.

Growing up in NC, most of my early experiences deer hunting were over dogs. Blueticks, Walkers, beagles, etc. It's a lot different from hog dogging, as deer seldom bay and the standers usually take their shots at running game. A chase might cover several miles and cross multiple property lines.

Later, as teenagers, we used to hunt public land that was initially closed to hounds. When the deer herd got too large, the Wildlife agency opened the area to dog hunters and that changed everything. There's not much as infuriating as sitting a promising stand since daybreak, only to have fifteen or twenty dogs come crashing through the brush and sweep your area.

So we changed our tactics and began to "renegade". This consisted of listening for the hounds, then heading into known escape routes to head off the deer. Of course, this infuriated some of the dog guys, but we saw it as fair play. It's public land, and the houndsmen obviously didn't care about interrupting our hunt with their activities so turnabout is fair play.

At the core, I still feel the same way. Even though I quit renegading long ago, I'd still shoot a deer in front of someone's dogs if it came by my stand.

Whether it's deer or hogs, if you're running your dogs on public land, you've basically invited every hunter on that land to join your hunt because willingly or not, you're involving them all. You may not have directly asked them to join your hunt, but they didn't ask you to bring your dogs to their hunt either. It's public land, of course, so you all have an equal right to be there.

That said, I understand that hog dogging is different from deer drives, and the hunters are typically pretty close to the dogs. I also understand that the chases are usually shorter. I can only rely on the experienced houndsmen to say, because my experience with hog dogs is pretty limited and conflicting.

I've hunted hogs with dogs exactly twice. The first trip was pretty much what you describe. The guide was running curs, and those dogs didn't make a lot of noise until the hogs were right under their noses and he kept them on leash until we hit hot tracks. If I were hunting the other side of the ridge from them, I'd probably never have known they were there.

At one point, though, the dogs had gone across a little draw and started barking furiously...obviously having bayed a pig. The guide took the other hunter and set off to get the hog. A few minutes after they'd disappeared into the thickets, I saw three pigs trotting in a straight line away from the ruckus and coming right to me. Now, had this been public land (it wasn't), even if I were not with the houndsman, I'd have whacked one of those three pigs and felt no conflict about it. As it is, I did take a bead on them, but I was using a muzzleloader and they were a little too far out.

The second trip, I was tagging along on public land with a guy who had a Plott and another dog that he kept on a leash (can't recall what it was). The Plott ranged wide, and he sounded off whenever he hit a hot track. After a couple of hours, we heard him start raising Cain. He went from ridge to ridge, then circled the canyon and headed out the other side. Fortunately for the houndsman, the dog was wearing a tracking collar and he was able to hike back to his truck and locate the dog several miles away at another trailhead.

Now, had I been on that opposite ridge, and that dog pushed a hog past me... I don't believe I'd have hesitated to take the shot. Even if the dog were right behind the hog, if I didn't see anyone close by I might still take the shot (safety first, of course). Once the dog came through the area, that would effectively be the end of my hunt whether I liked it or not. To be completely honest, depending on the kind of day I was having, I might even have shot the hog out of simple spite.

Now here's the thing. First of all, if I'm heading into an area to hunt and I see other people there...whether houndsmen or other still-hunters, I go to another area. If it's houndsmen, I'll usually leave altogether because I figure the dogs will clear an area out if there's anything there in the first place. If it's still-hunters, I may swing wide and try to get into an escape route (draw or ridgetop) in case they push something ahead of them... which isn't all that different, really, than letting someone else's dogs push something to me.

Point being, most of the time, the only way I'll be in a situation to shoot in front of someone else's dogs would be if I were already there when they arrived... which means that the houndsmen came in there most likely knowing that I was there already. Like it or not, they just invited me to join their hunt. It's up to me to decide whether to accept that "invitation" or not.

Of course everything is situational, and from day to day my personal choice would probably vary.

I know that there will always be a difference of perspective between houndsmen and those of us who don't use dogs. Some of those gaps will never be closed. But it is useful to at least recognize and discuss them.

 

[ooja]

Okay, now, what state are we talking? Running hounds in Texas on public land is a little different than running them in CA. For those of us out of staters (I am assuming since this is a CA based site, this is about CA) you should know there is a total of about a dozen areas of public land that are big enough in the whole state of Cali to run hogs with dogs, and that is being generous. These same areas are populated with hunters on foot (they are the only areas available that hold anything) who most likely have hiked a minimum of 5-10 miles one way just to see sign. Given all that, and a hog is pushed to a hunter, my guess is the average guy is blasting in both scenarios, no questions asked, and when the houndsmen come in, the hiking hunter says "Could you call your dogs off of my kill?"

Now would I?

scenario #1 shoot the hogs, if safe shot is possible.

scenario #2 shoot the hog. I got there first.

If you use dogs in the woods, so will I. I just choose to use yours.

Now that is the way I would FEEL.

What actually HAPPENED, was I heard the hounds at 10 minutes after sunup, after a 3 hour drive, and shrugged, shook my head and went home. Didn't even make an attempt at hunting that area. Yes this really has happened to me. Let me tell you what though, no houndsman should ever EVER get mad at me, he is the one ruining my hunt with his methods, not the other way around. If anything, he should be the one on the defensive, and in my opinion, once those dogs are loosed, everyone in the area is now hunting with dogs. First one to find the boar gets it. DFG really should address this, and make some areas dog areas and others not.

Ugh!. If I was the houndman I would feel exactly opposite though. Good money spent on those dogs, training, keeping them in shape, feeding them, healing them, chasing them through the brush, then finding someone else on "my" hog. I can totally see it both ways. As you said Speck, the second those things run from the truck, the woods changes and everything is running the opposite direction. No other hunters have a chance unless they adapt to the situation and use those dogs.

The only way I can see it that is fair, is if dogs are running, the first one who finds the pig, gets the pig, owner or not. Any other way is unfair.

 

[boarhunter67]

That's all I was saying. Thanks for making my point much better than I did.

 

[Catahoula Kid]

I used to run Catahoulas in Lake/Sonoma County for about 5 years. BayedSolid has said it best. You better not shoot the hod if the dogs have it bayed up. You can watch the action and I will give you the hog. Would you shoot a pheasant that someone elses dog got up? The woods are big enough for all of us.

 

[boarhunter67]

The bird dog comparison doesn't really fit. If someone is bird hunting, their dog is always in sight. When someone is using dogs for large game, the dogs run throughout the countryside. I've hunted with dogs before and had a hard time keeping up in a vehicle. We traverse miles of mountain roads following the dogs. So what you are basically saying is that if dogs are used, the whole forest is off limits.

 

[One Track]

I get more enjoyment out of finding a hog to kill, than I do killing it. So, it's easy for me to answer both questions. Let the hogs live and go find another big 'ol nasty pork monster.