What would you do?

[slowpoke]

Never having hunted big game with dogs, the only way I could relate to the situation was relating it to my experience bird hunting. I would resent someone letting their dog run around a field I was hunting and ruining the hunt for me if I was there firs. In essence isn’t that what the people who are running hogs on public land doing?

It is public land and we need to be tolerant of others, but everyone should be respectful as well. Maybe a first come first serve mentality. Most that do not hunt with dogs said if they heard dogs hunting in the area they would go someplace else. Would the people who are running dogs not hunt an area because they know other people are hunting there? Just curious if the people hunting with dogs would show the same respect for my hunt they would expect me to show for theirs. If not, you owe them nothing more than they are showing you. Start the flaming!

 

[bayedsolid]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I'm not so sure I wouldn't shoot in both cases. I know many people will be upset with me on this and say I shot someone else's pig, but if it's on public property and the pig hasn't been shot then it's fair game as far as I'm concerned.[/b]

Well, if you are rifle hunting and spot a hog 400 yard away and another rifle hunter 200 yards away from the hog crawling up to a rock for a shot...should you quickly take a shot first? Yes, technically the hog is fair game since it hasn't been shot yet but ethically I would say that guy deserves the shot. As far as the topic here....Those aren't your dogs....and that hog wouldn't be standing there bayed up if it wasn't for the dogs so how do you figure you deserve to shoot? <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

These same areas are populated with hunters on foot (they are the only areas available that hold anything) who most likely have hiked a minimum of 5-10 miles one way just to see sign.[/b]

As did the dog men. Just because you have dogs doesn't mean you can catch hogs where there aren't any. I've hunted about every way there is to hunt and I guarantee chasing dogs around the woods is the toughest. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Given all that, and a hog is pushed to a hunter, my guess is the average guy is blasting in both scenarios, no questions asked, and when the houndsmen come in, the hiking hunter says "Could you call your dogs off of my kill?"[/b]

The first scenario....if a hog runs by with no dogs on it...I'd say it's a judgement call and deal with it from there. The second one....the hog isn't pushed to the hunter like you said. You went to the bark and found a bayed hog. If you showed up at my bay, shot the hog out from underneath my dogs, and had the gall to tell me to call my dogs off of your kill....well, let's just say I hope you're one big, tough S.O.B.

Any way you look at it, neither situation happens very often. In all my years of hunting I've only had one time where someone became involved in the bay. After a long hunt and a few hogs down we were on our way back to the truck. On the ridgetop above the main road 1/2 mile below the dogs disapeared and opened up close to the road. About that time a truck driving down the road happened to see the bay which was close to the road and shot. Everything went quiet....and I was scared to death that a dog got shot. I hurried to get there and after a couple of minutes the truck left. The dogs both opened up farther up the ridge and when I got there the boar which would have had 2-1/2 to 3 inches of teeth had been hit right in the lower jaw. Obviously not a very ethical hunter any way you look at it but that has been my only run-in.

 

[MikenSoCo]

Just when I thought I was back in good graces here, along comes another of my dissenting opinions... Dang, I had to shell out $15 for this pig tag

I'm shootin the first thing that moves!... Just kidding. Seriously though, I don't think far ranging dogs belong on public land. Considering the public land hog success rate, It's tough enough for average Joe, let alone competing with dogs and not being able to shoot "another man's hog". Give me a break, the dog found it, not you. Pay a guide and take your dogs to private property where nobody else is affected. OK, let me have it!!

Nice job Speck

 

[ooja]

Actually, bayed, as I said before, having been there before, it would never happen. I would hear dogs, and go home. I would feel a lot of things, and I expressed them. However, bottom line, I would go home and avoid any problem from the beginning. I learned long ago it aint worth it. The houndsman would get the woods from me that day. I wonder if you have ever given it any thought, how many hunters might just be walkin away when they hear your dogs. Kinda makes me think, see from yer point of view, and maybe, you can see it from mine. Definately not saying I know the answer to this one, but bottom line, the woods shuts down, the houndsman gets to hunt it all and everyone else better go home. OR risk pissing him and his hounds off, and I don't piss of anyone I don't know who is holding a gun. I go in peace.

 

[Speckmisser]

I couldn't help it, Mike. This forum has been too happy-go-lucky lately.

Seriously, I think there was a sort of challenge in the air, and I just wanted a different way to answer it.

I think Ooja's point should be very well taken... folks who don't use dogs can see the houndsmen's perspective. But sometimes you have to wonder if the houndsmen see it the other way around.

Too many times, even in CA, I've had folks come right by my parked vehicle (often past more than one vehicle) at the trailhead and drop their dogs in the same patch of woods I've been hunting. At that point, I can either "join the hunt" or go home. After driving three hours or more to get to the area, not to mention the time spent on previous trips to learn the hog trails and scout sign... well, you can guess which I choose.

Bayed, I'm sure you know I mean no disrespect to you, or to Rifleman or to any of the other houndsmen out there. But if your dogs push a hog to me, I'm more than likely gonna take it.

 

[SierraExplorer]

hmmmm-

Sorry I dont have the time to read everyones post- I gtg- but had a thought on the main premise of the

topic...

I think this question applies-

If you are Pheasant hunting on Public land for Wild birds on public land. The dogs that jumped the bird are out of the question from distance- Do you dove hunt him to put in your bag as he is gliding toward you? Or let him go and follow him with your dog to get him up and in your bag for the whole purpose of the hunt you are pursuing?

Either way the chances are he will end up on your roasting pan- you just may need a little more work on option #2.

The biggest equasion (sp?) You can account for the hog and the dogs- But you can NEVER take into to consideration the dogs owner on the other side of the gun.

to Live by- People are nuts- especially when they are using the strongest means to fill their tag. Emotions play higher for all than common sence at that moment of both parties.

 

[Bishop]

Another scenario. You glass a pig/pigs across the canyon. You start your approach to get across to the pigs. Before you get there someones dogs start chasing them. Who's pig/pigs is it now?

 

[Badgerbuckhunter]

As a hunter, shoot which ever one you like. As a houndsman, it would not affect me in the least, when I run our dogs I do it for the hounds and the love of the sport, much like taking a kid hunting and holding off shooting the trophy and letting the kid shoot it instead.

 

[wello]

Can I pull a Burt 'Deliverance Reynolds in here?..Probably not since it not Campfire.

Haven't hunted with hunting dogs really and haven't read all the ideas put forth so foregive if I am off the wall or just repeating others......
I would not interfere whatsoever in these scenarios. Someone else's hunt method is being played out. Even though I assume the dogs are meant to get only one pig in the end, wouldn't your added interference possibly mess up the whole play or put the dogs off in the first scenario? And then in the second scenario the dog owner will be along for the pig soon enough. I see the dogs as an extension of the hunter himself I guess...If all else fails (like my brain), the safety issue and concern for shooting someone's dog seems to make it a no brainer to me..
Perhaps the difference between this and a deer drive is that the dog has latched on in a sense and we as the bystander's hear and knows it. Whether full on deer drives or individual hunters just taking aim on any single pray in the woods.. it may not be known someone else has called the shot. If there was no such separation we could talk ourselves into anything out there. I say whenever there is more then the two party's (which =game and your party) staring at you or coming into play you just move on or let it pass. ..So now perhaps the dog hunters now have one less uninformed dog etiquette hunter to worry about..

 

[wello]

Oh geez, I went and read it all , I think....This may sound all over the board playing devil's advocate for both sides but..

I feel for the hunters that got the Potential game scared away for sure. The original question limits our responses though. If we go off on tangents of whether we are gonna start following Someone Else's dogs then go for it but I doubt if a houndsman, as they are called, are gonna mind if you shoot a pig that they have just then latched onto. I would shoot my pig as it starts to run from the dogs about to latch on if I can cause.. I did see it first...

... Just cause they ruin an area for a time gives you no right to kill their game...The pig passing by you never would have been seen or hunted by you anyway...The removing of drive dogs from public lands smells of jealous utopian hunters that want to claim and/or farm OUR public land... Hounding is not really hunting to me and neither is target practicing so now we have reason for seasons on all three?..no
Now listen to me.. I don't even hunt with dog's or ever met a houndsman.. This just deserves original freedom with responsibility instead of anarchy or lockdown. This type of talk of displeasure or discontent with each other (since perhaps when guys started panning another guys river claim in the days of the 49er's) that starts the ink pen flowing all over our Ammendments. I am tired of wanting everything perfect , and strict. It red tapes us, kills our freedoms and creates all them whacked out PC people. (like no pics of soldiers with guns)

~Wello

 

[MikenSoCo]

Another twist... And you can't tell me this hasn't happened to many houndsmen.... You're out running your dogs( I love dogs by the way), and the hog runs under the fence onto private property because dogs can't read. You're a half mile behind because hogs can run full speed for up to four miles( I believe Rob Bobb, name might be wrong, timed a running hog in his truck) and your dog is right behind him. Now me, the land owner, shoots the hog and catches your dog who is now trespassing and scared every game animal off my ranch. What should I do with the dog? Shoot it? Some guys would, but not me. Keep it? Hhhmmm, depends on how nice he is. Call animal control and Sheriff? Nah, too lenient and unpredictable( see "pitbull attacks kid" in Concord) I think a $500 tresspass fee would be fair. Houndsman gets his dog back, landowner is happy, and hopefully it wouldn't happen again.

 

[Speckmisser]

Mike,

I'm not completely clear on CA laws, but I believe the dogs are protected under the same range laws that protect someone's livestock that have wandered onto your property. You can't make ribeyes out of a stray cow, and you can't keep someone's hound dog.

Now, as the landowner you can make a ruckus about the animal being on your property, but there's honestly not a lot you can do about it unless it's chasing your livestock or threatening your family. When the houndsman shows up, you give him his dog OR HE calls the Sherriff on YOU.

By the way, the dogs crossing property lines is a HUGE issue back in the South, and is the source of more than one shootout every deer season. It's also the reason that there is so much pressure to ban the practice, as the suburbs push into farm country.

Wello, for a minute there, I thought you were off in Sierraland (sorry Dan, I had to go there)... the thread makes a little more sense when you've read it, though, huh? I personally don't agree with banning dogs off of public land, but I do believe that if your dogs are pushing game, anybody else hunting that land has as much right to shoot it as the houndsman. So if someone chooses to run dogs on public land, they choose to do so knowing the potential outcome.

I guess what I'm looking for here is where is the line of "common decency"? It's not something that can be legislated, no matter how hard our politicians try.

 

[MikenSoCo]

I respectfully disagree Speck. Where I live there is a strict leash law. There are signs posted along the highway stating" dogs may be shot for harassing livestock" which you've stated. Also, you need permission to follow wounded game onto private land, why would a dog be different. If it is true that the dog owner has the right to come onto private property and retrieve his dog, then as a landowner I would have to invoke the SSS rule. Problem solved.

 

[Speckmisser]

Dang, Mike... you're a-stirrin', huh?

Gruff ol' curmudgeon.

Seriously, though. If there's a leash law, then there shouldn't be any houndhunting going on anyway. However, if someone is violating that law, then you let animal control come pick up the dog and the owner can pay the fine to get it back. That's almost as good as your earlier scenario.

SSS is just a bad, bad call... especially when the person looking for his animal is toting a gun AND has the law on his side.

 

[MikenSoCo]

SSS a bad call?! What's wrong with Save-Snuggle-Surrender? I'm sorry guys, through a couple bad experiences, I really don't think dogs running free on public land be it the park or hunting land is fair to the masses. I think it belongs on private property. A bird dog in control of the upland hunter is not a comparsion to several dogs running through hundreds of acres. And I certainly don't trust animal control or the sherriff's dept. to do the right thing, and that's if they've got the budgetary support in the first place. I tend to lean toward the older ways, where you take care of problems yourself. On a ranch up here in this county, we had tresspassers(not all you houndsmen are like this I know) running dogs and using the dogs as an excuse to go where ever they wanted. " Sorry, just looking for my lost dog" Then the same thing next week, and so on. We didn't see a hog on the property for two months, where we had a pretty good sucess rate earlier. I'm not knockin' the method, hell I love dogs. Public land just ain't the place.

 

[jawtightener]

1. shoot if safe
2. don't shoot
would you take fish from someone's net?

 

[boarhunter67]

Okay, I agree. If the dogs bayed fish in a net I wouldn't shoot. However, I would still shoot if it were a hog, bear, etc. I agree that a bird dog is no more relevent than, say, fish in a lake. For the fish senerio to be applicable, it would have to be: If you were fishing on a lake's shore and someone came in a boat and dropped a net right over your liine across where you were fishing, would you stop fishing or take their fish?

 

[ooja]

errr..ummm. Would you shoot a pheasant someone else's dog kicked up? Would you take a fish from someone else's net?

Well Jawtightener, the houndsman just DID take something from EVERYONE else's net, just by being there. Please read the whole thread especially the parts Speckmisser has about his experiences. Once those dogs are in the woods, all chances for anyone else getting ANYTHING in the "traditional manner" are off. Everything runs the other way.

The houndsman has taken the rifle hiker/hunter's chances at getting anything through spot and stalk, and thrown it out the window, unless a hog is kicked out in front of the hiker/hunter by the dogs, in which case the hiker/hunter should just walk away? I call B.S.

Some posters are seeing it a little different than I do. The way I see it, the houndsman is taking the chance of finding unmolested game from the other hunters. Is that right? Bayed or not bayed, first person on scene should get the animal.

That person won't be me.

I will be back at the truck already, pulling off my boots, and thinking of a different place to go where I am not likely to have my hunt ruined by someone running dogs. And I keep saying it, IT AINT WORTH IT. My job requires that I manage amazing levels of stress. I have to let it go. Keep your anger and frustration, and it poisons your soul, and kills you slow.

When a houndsman ruins your area, treat yourself. You could have gotten a pig (low chance, but a possibility) so go to a ranch, pay for the guide, and go get yourself some pork. Reward yourself for being mature enough to walk away.

Or you can freak out, and start dropping poisoned meatballs all over the place, or get a pack of rottweiler/pitbull mixes, train them to kill other dogs, go out into the woods and get yourself into a huge pile of trouble, all for what?

It is what it is. I say walk away, go hunt another day, to both scenario #1 & 2. It ain't right, but it is what it is.

 

[jawtightener]

instead of net how about trap, as in snare/claw trap (legality aside, blah blah blah)? if an animal is bayed it is caught, as in a net. game over, someone elses game animal, period. shooting a pig bayed by someone else's hunting dogs is like stealing. everyone knows it. i would not recomend anyone doing this. we'll be reading articles about hunter deaths due to someone's passive aggressive action (killing a bayed hog cause you feel victimized by those hunting with dogs). if you don't like the legality of the houndsman's ability to hunt in this manner, write your congressman. one's personal vision of what is traditional or what their view of what hunting should be, is irrelevant. no i don't hunt with dogs.

 

[ooja]

Wow. We agree. Walking away is the best course of action. It is what it is.