What would you do?

[Common Sense]

Couple of years ago I bought a deer tag for the first time in 8 or nine 9 years. Son wanted to take me hunting, like I use to take him.

He parked the truck in the middle of nowhere a good hour before the start of hunting season. We sat a few minutes, then went walking throught the woods in the dark. Just about legal shooting hour, here comes two hounds (one of them covered in blood). They were fairly quiet, but after seeing them several times in the next couple of hours we decided to go back to the truck and find a new spot. When we got back to his truck, we saw the bloody dog running down the road, the other one was peeing on a tire.

As I am unloading my rifle and putting it into the case, my son asked if I want a canned soda; and of course I said yes. I heard my son pulling the ice chest towards him, then all of a sudden "What the...". His hand, the ice chest, and tailgate were covered with blood. We were on public land, so the houndsmen had a right to be there; but I have a right not to like it. Had we seen game, we would have shot; but we thought it best to go elsewhere.

 

[ooja]

I learn so much here. Now I get it. I didn't have an understanding that lots of other people did, and I feel much more informed. It is the definition of "bayed." See I am totally ignorant to hunting with hounds (like many public land hunters I suspect). The concept is that once the hounds have the hog so he can't get away, he is "owned," game over, and that animal is the houndsman's. Until that time, as the hog runs and the dogs chase, it is a free animal, belonging to nobody and it could get away. I never thought this way.

I always thought, that pig can get away, during all parts of the chase. I have never hunted with hounds, but I would imagine that as it is described, it is very difficult and challenging. Descriptions I have read sound like most of the time, the boar can get away, and only when the dogs are all around it, barking and biting at it, is it then "bayed." I also thought that even when surrounded, unless the houndsman gets to the hog and dogs quickly, the boar can hurt a dog, and still break away.

I always figured, surrounded or not, it can get away. It can get away until the houndsman kills it, or it is tied up. So I thought there is no "bayed," there is dead, tied up, or still free running.

So if it is bayed, it is considered bad form to kill it, it is someone else's animal. Stealing. I finally get it.

I have only 1 question: who decides if the boar is bayed?

I have a feeling I know the answer, and the fat guy is in charge of holding the Frito's bag again.

 

[boarhunter67]

A trap is different than a dog. I've hunted with hounds and several times the animal got away after it was treed or bayed. Also, I've never had a trap scare off the game when I've hunted because it runs throughout the countryside for miles barking and yelping.

 

[wello]

Here is a story that some may find familiar...One time I was on a traditional family camp trip up in a backwoods campsite back about 7 years ago when a dog came limping in to camp. The thing was starved skinny and smelled like it been out in the woods already for a week at least. No one showed up for this radio collared dog the whole week we were up there. When we broke camp we took it with us down towards the big city and called and left a message for the owner to come get his dog at my place..(owner name and tele # was of course just about handcuffed to the dog for obvious reasons).. We fed this dog and cared for it the whole time. When the guy found out we had his dog his attitude was one of disgust that we took his dog as far as we did from the area or his home inthe valley. Not sure if he was thinking we could have dropped it at his local shelter on a Sunday night on our way out of the hills or what.. You would think he would offer food money and a thank you when he picked it up all fixed up but nope, not as I recall. I do remember his 'happens all the time' attitude...Makes me sick.. This type person doesn't deserve dogs. ..Is this person any of you guys up North from Sacramento? If you are, well... you stunk as bad as the dog did...

I believe in allowing the dogs to chase pray. That is what they were bred for long before us so called Americans ever decided to call spot and stalk a tradition. Think cave people had dog's, didn't they? I don't classify it as hunting but they deserve being exercised in this manner. Does this mean we should be allowed to dynamite the lake for fish?

 

[Badgerbuckhunter]

I' confused are we hunting or fishin.

Can't we all just get along.

Or as wello says: Spew less.....................Hunt More!!

 

[boarrunner]

These are the scenarios that keep me from hunting my dogs on public land.
Like was said previous we all have a equal right to be there so some tollerance must be had.

scenario #1 If I ran my dogs on public land (BIG IF) and they pushed the hog(s) towards another hunter who had posted up. I couldn't get too mad because its public land. Thats why I hunt private land.


scenario#2 would be grounds for not keeping it civil !!

That would be the same as you shooting a hog and me getting there first and taking it. If my dogs have the hog bayed its my hog, No different than one that you shot . If you were there watching the action when I get there, like Bayed Solid said I would let you shoot it under my direction and take it.

You know the hog is bayed if you were able to walk in and see it!

Picking up a collared dog hunting or otherwise and taking out of town isn't doing the owner any favors. when you pick up a collard dog you take the responsibility and inconvience of returning the dog to his owner or drop it off at the ranger or forestry,station or animal shelter. If you were there a week you must of kept that dog tied to keep it around camp , you may have been in a location were the signal could not get out to the reciever. Did you ever think that the houndsman most likely spent the entire week Night/day driving and hiking that country looking for the dog, only to find out some one was keeping her.

Pardon me for any hostility, but I have had a similar expierence of people thinking they were doing me a favor, but only cost me days of work and nights of sleep. If a dog is wearing a telemetry collar some one is looking for it. a cheap collar is $150 .

 

[bayedsolid]

Originally posted by MikenSoCo@Apr 1 2005, 07:37 AM
I respectfully disagree Speck. Where I live there is a strict leash law. There are signs posted along the highway stating" dogs may be shot for harassing livestock" If it is true that the dog owner has the right to come onto private property and retrieve his dog, then as a landowner I would have to invoke the SSS rule. Problem solved.

Comments like these drive me crazy. For one...how can you compare anything in the hunting woods to where you live? I don't care if there is a leash law in your neighborhood....we are talking about the woods. Since we have to follow your neighborhood rules out in the woods, please let me know just how you plan on shooting a hog. Isn't there a no shooting ordinance where you live? As far as your last comment about SSS....weather you meant that seriously or not, it is a rediculous and horrible thing to say. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Or you can freak out, and start dropping poisoned meatballs all over the place, or get a pack of rottweiler/pitbull mixes, train them to kill other dogs, go out into the woods and get yourself into a huge pile of trouble, all for what?[/b]

Another Einstein here.
This whole discussion on how everyone would handle the situation is difficult because these are all hypothetical instances. Like I said before, how often does it even happen anyway. Just because dogs are in the country doesn't mean things are screwed for everyone else. I've never once had a hunt where I had someone complain that I screwed them up. How many discussions here have talked about the hogs being nocturnal? Plenty of them. In fact, I think the thread on Laguna Mtn. is that way. Where do you think the hogs go during the day? Do they disappear into thin air or maybe just into the thick stuff? No rifle hunters have ever had their hunt ruined because they were just about to go belly crawl through 1/2 mile of brush in hopes of crawling up on one, and here comes my dogs on by and they're hunt is blown. Every single time I have ever busted and crawled my way into the brush to the bay there was never a single rifle hunter crawling his way next to me. Now if there were some other hogs in that brush, what do you think they did? They either held tight or more likely, split the scene which gives the rifle hunter on the outside a huge freebee that he would have never had.
I know hog doggers have a bad name for the most part, but all of you Holier than thou's out there need to remember that just because you might not do it yourself does not make it right to condemn it. I don't really give a damn about rifle hunting hogs so does that mean I should take the standpoint that rifle hunters should not be allowed in the hog woods 'cause it's more dangerous for my dogs that way? You need to watch which way you're tossing those rocks....you could break a window.

 

[MikenSoCo]

You're right Bayed, I owe an apology to all for the SSS comment, and I would never do such a thing. It was a knee jerk reaction to the suggestion that people could help themselves to my property to retrieve a dog. Sorry again.... As for the leash law, nowhere did I mention the word neighborhood. Happy hunting

 

[gonehunting]

Here's my

worth, and no matter what the variances were, this is what I would stick too. If I just heard dogs in the background and the hog came out in front of me, I would drop him without hesitation. I believe I would have just as much right as anyone to claim him. To many variables envolved to let him go plain and simple.

Now if the hog is bayed, thats a totally different story, under no circumstances, short of human endangerment would I shoot it. As far as I am concerned that is the job for the houndsman. Not even if the hog was winning the battle with the dogs. For two reasons....#1 The houndsman has put all the work into training the dogs so its his or her hard earned trophy.....#2 contrary to some statements....they might care even though the dogs were getting tore up if you shoot the hog, for one, they might not see it or beleive you on how it really was.

 

[wello]

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Quote boarrunner: Picking up a collared dog hunting or otherwise and taking out of town isn't doing the owner any favors. when you pick up a collard dog you take the responsibility and inconvience of returning the dog to his owner or drop it off at the ranger or forestry,station or animal shelter. If you were there a week you must of kept that dog tied to keep it around camp , you may have been in a location were the signal could not get out to the reciever. Did you ever think that the houndsman most likely spent the entire week Night/day driving and hiking that country looking for the dog, only to find out some one was keeping her.[/b]

boarrunner, I trust that you always keep after your dogs and find them within a couple weeks...

Maybe re-read my post. Again, the dog was already starved with ribs showing. It was beat to hell and so, No.. this dog was not tied up and we did not keep it from leaving, don't kid yourself. It was middle of no where 50 miles up and out of the valley and so this dog was going no where when there was food right there. Sure dog's can make it all the way home but as weak as this one was and still a good 30 miles to nearest town we were not gonna leave it to die or be eaten by a cat..that would be sick and wrong. "taking out of town" ?? No town in the woods we were in. And besides this guy lived in the valley maybe only about 35 miles from me. I did not think favor until flat ground and he is lucky I even returned the dog via calling him..You for sure don't trust someone else to find and nurse your dog back to health like you change yer undies, right? Your a better houndsman then that for sure...You'de be better off going the humane caring route for this type discussion as people will feel your rights better. I am one of them that doesn't want to take your rights away but can't stand puke attitude from one of your fellow houndsman gaining from my compassionate deeds...If it ever happens again, I will take care of the dog and maybe keep it since I found it on public land..JK..

 

[bayedsolid]

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Sorry again.... As for the leash law, nowhere did I mention the word neighborhood. Happy hunting[/b]

No big deal. I know you didn't mention neighborhood, but I assumed when you said there is a leash law where you live, that you live in some sort of neighborhood and not on public land.

 

[muledeer07]

Scene 1 Dead hog if theres no threat to the dogs.

Scene 2 Sit back and enjoy the show. If necessary step in to prevent any injuries to the dogs.

 

[BGH831]

I get the feeling this an energizer thread. It's going to keep going, and going, and going. Like some dogs!

 

[RIFLEMAN]

With the comments as they are, and the prevailing attitude as it is, there is plenty to respond to. I'll rein in my usual litany in exchange for a few brief points concerning the elements of the discussion...

1. As bayedsolid said, hog hunters who use hogdogs catch/take exponentially more hogs than spot-and-stalkers ever will. This is not an opinion, but a statement of fact. Due to both the emphasis we place on the use of the dogs, and the abundance of success we enjoy, killing the hog is not foremost on our minds as our dogs pursue or bay the hog. Houndhunters are very generous with the game our dogs catch and are happy to spread the wealth and allow others to enjoy the fruits of our labor...provided that people act appropriately and don't take what they haven't earned.

2. Public land is just that--public. It belongs to everybody. A spot-and-stalker has no more right to prohibit a dog hunter from hunting public property than a wildlife photographer has the right to prohibit a spot-and-stalker from hunting public property. My dogs may disrupt the serenity of your hunt, just as your shooting may disrupt the serenity of a photographer's session. It is certainly not the intent of a responsible dog hunter or spot-and-stalker to disturb another's experience in the outdoors, but rather, an unfortunate by-product of our excursions.

Dog hunters would be just as legitimately bothered by your intervention in their endeavors (shooting a hog their dogs bayed/pursued), as you would be bothered by having your stalk interrupted by the intervention of someone who believes strongly in the non-consumptive enjoyment of wildlife (banging pots and pans near you).

3. In the case of the serious dog hunter, this is not a hobby, but a passion; it is our life and our identity in many ways. In no small part, the overwhelming advantage we have over spot-and-stalkers (given the extent of our success) is largely due to the overwhelming amount of time, effort, dedication, experience and money we exert. We dedicate more of these resources than spot-and-stalkers do, and we naturally get more in return. Unlike the spot-and-stalker with his rifle, houndsmen do not put their dogs away for extended periods of time. Again, not an opinion but a statement of fact.

4. The presence of dogs in the hills does not mean the de facto ruination of opportunity for spot-and-stalkers. Newsflash: The game does not empty out of the country at the mere sound of barking dogs! I can't count the many times that I have passed bedded or minimally disturbed bucks while on my way to the "racket" of my bayed or treed hounds. Take some basic biology or zoology classes and you'll learn that the expenditure of energy is something that is inherently calculated and budgeted by many living organisms. Animals will react in the manner that their instinct and adaptive "memories" dictate, and will often exert only the energy they must. For prey species, one of the tactics they employ to avoid danger is simply to stay put.

Conversely, it is important to point out (as is evident by the many examples that you guys gave) that the game does often choose to move and as such, is often kicked up and moved around. As bayedsolid indicated, our dogs moving through the brush often provides you with greater opportunity for success. Is it in the manner of your choosing? No, certainly not. But given the very poor quality of spot-and-stalking opportunity that the overwhelming majority of public land provides you with, we are actually the best chance you've got at bagging a hog. Like it or not, the conditions in most public hunting areas are not favorable to your method alone.

It is not my intent to solicit your appreciation or anything like that, but merely to logically dismiss the condemnation of using dogs on public property.

5. My speculation is this- Much of the hostility illustrated in this thread is due to the arbitrary condemnation of the use of dogs to take big game in general. Much of that condemnation is due to the fact that it is not your method of choice. Much of the championing of spot and stalking over houndhunting is because you deem houndhunting to be unsporting. Much of that attitude is due to your inexperience and ignorance about the sport.



Though I have absolutely no desire to ever shoot a hog without having first bayed it with my dogs, I will not condemn your choice to spot and stalk, nor actively campaign to prohibit you from doing so. Though I could easily further the argument that houndhunting is more meritous/sporting than spot-and-stalking, I believe it to be an irrelevant argument, and would not let my personal preference cloud my judgement while in the hills.

I would never intentionally disrupt your experience and I justifiably ask the same in return.

 

[RIFLEMAN]

To give Speck's original scenario its due attention (again, trying to be brief)...

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Let's say you're humping backcountry on public land, and you hear some hounds barking and coming your way. They're getting really close, then the bushes in front of you part and a group of hogs comes jogging into the open.  Do you shoot? Or do you step aside and let the hunt play out.[/b]

If you witness a hog that is being closely pursued by dogs, I think it is selfish, rude and inappropriate to shoot it. You are denying the ability of the other hunter to bring a realistic and probable conclusion to the pursuit.

If however, you witness one or more hogs on the move as a result of dogs nearby, you are perfectly welcome to enjoy the tertiary benefits of the use of hunting dogs in the area.

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Scenario two... You're out on public land, hog hunting, and you hear a gawdawful racket of yelping dogs and squealing hogs down in the bottom of a draw only a hundred yards or so from your position. Do you go check it out?[/b]

Most, if not all, dog hunters would not take issue with you checking out the action as a passive observer while you waited for them to show up. You would likely be invited to shoot and keep whatever hog they had.

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Let's say you do check it out. The dogs have bayed a pretty nice boar, but you don't see the houndsmen anywhere. Do you step in and off the hog, or do you back off and wait for the houndsman?[/b]

The reaction of the hunter will probably be as varied as the type of dogs we choose to use. Many would be quite bothered by you killing a hog their dogs bayed without them--mostly out of concern for the safety of their dogs, but partly due to the perceived "theft" of something they have a legitimate claim to. If your motivations were due to a concern for the safety of the dogs, some houndsmen would feel a bit more comfortable by your initiative to act; they might have said "no" given the choice, but are relieved that it turned out well. We have reason to worry given the fact that spot-and-stalkers lack significant experience in shooting hogs in close quarters in less-than-ideal circumstances whereas it's all part of the sport with dog hunters.

I would say the minority would be comfortable with you taking the initiative to kill the hog and bring the pursuit to an end.

 

[RIFLEMAN]

To respond individually to Speck's comments...

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I know Josh (Rifleman) is a pretty serious houndsman, and he certainly has some opinion. I also figure he's waiting for me to show my hand. So, in the interest of getting his points on the table here are mine.[/b]

You figured wrong, Phil. I am actually in Illinois on business and didn't see the thread until two friends called me today just to tell me about it. So here I am, right in the middle of the fray. It's a good topic to discuss. Situations like the ones you presented should be addressed by people from both ends of the spectrum.

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Whether it's deer or hogs, if you're running your dogs on public land, you've basically invited every hunter on that land to join your hunt because willingly or not, you're involving them all. You may not have directly asked them to join your hunt, but they didn't ask you to bring your dogs to their hunt either. It's public land, of course, so you all have an equal right to be there.[/b]

Yes, remember that we all have an equal right to be there. I'll keep my dogs off the hog you are stalking if you keep your scope off the hog my dogs are pursuing. Sounds fair to me!

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ugh, the dogs...started barking furiously...obviously having bayed a pig...I saw three pigs trotting in a straight line away from the ruckus and coming right to me...I'd have whacked one of those three pigs and felt no conflict about it.[/b]

No harm done there. Those hogs were not being pursued by the dogs.

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Now, had I been on that opposite ridge, and that dog pushed a hog past me... I don't believe I'd have hesitated to take the shot. Even if the dog were right behind the hog, if I didn't see anyone close by I might still take the shot (safety first, of course).[/b]

If the dog was right behind the hog, you killing the hog would be nothing more than rude and selfish.

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Once the dog came through the area, that would effectively be the end of my hunt whether I liked it or not.[/b]

Wrong; it's over only if you want it to be. Your ability to take a hog is not threatened by dogs running a hog in the area. Depending on the area you are hunting in, your hunt may have a greater likelihood of success with the dogs there. Do you get to enjoy the serenity the area has to offer? No. Is it the ideal spot and stalk situation? No. But does the mere presence of hounds in the area make it less likely that you will bag a hog? No way!

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If it's still-hunters, I may swing wide and try to get into an escape route (draw or ridgetop) in case they push something ahead of them... which isn't all that different, really, than letting someone else's dogs push something to me.[/b]

Wrong again...big difference. The dogs are much more likely to get their game than the still hunters are. Your intervention is more detrimental to the likely outcome for the houndsman than the outcome for the still hunter.

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I think Ooja's point should be very well taken... folks who don't use dogs can see the houndsmen's perspective. But sometimes you have to wonder if the houndsmen see it the other way around.[/b]

Why is that exactly? You are the one condoning shooting a hog out from under our dogs. We are not condoning releasing our dogs on a hog that we see you stalking or looking at through your scope.

You and most of the other participants seem to be forgetting something...Our presence is more easily known to you than your presence is to us. You can hear my dogs barking, Phil! I won't know that you are in the area unless I happen to pass by you or your vehicle on my way in. You clearly have the advantage in knowing that the houndsman is in the area.

If I saw your truck parked in an area, I would move on. Not only do I want my own space to hunt in peace (just as you do), but also because some spot-and-stalkers have a nasty habit of shooting at things they hear in the brush, and I don't want to be put in the position of encountering someone who just shot my dog.

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but if your dogs push a hog to me, I'm more than likely gonna take it.[/b]

Remind me to never duckhunt anywhere near you on a refuge!

This situation is no different. If I had ten dozen decoys, a fleet of moto-ducks, the most expensive duck calls in the world and 20 years of experience, and you had a dozen decoys (in other words, my methods were more advantageous than your own) would you pass-shoot the ducks that were locked in on my spread all because 1. we were hunting on public property, and 2. my methods (that you didn't agree with) impacted your ability to carry out your methods?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

but I do believe that if your dogs are pushing game, anybody else hunting that land has as much right to shoot it as the houndsman. So if someone chooses to run dogs on public land, they choose to do so knowing the potential outcome.[/b]

Pushing or pursuing? If pursuing, how far behind are the dogs? I fail to see how you could avoid making a distinction. I know you are more than rational enough, and all too capable of using some discretion, Phil.

 

[RIFLEMAN]

Now for MikenSoCo's comments...

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Give me a break, the dog found it, not you.[/b]

So, your rifle killed the hog, not you. Until you put down your rifle and start pummelling hogs to death with your fists, there is absolutely no difference. So ease up on your holier than thou attitude...

You have little, if any, sense of what is involved in breeding, raising, training and hunting with dogs so your judgement above carries no legitimacy.

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Pay a guide and take your dogs to private property where nobody else is affected.[/b]

First of all, who are you to say that a houndsman has to pay a guide and hunt on private property. Why don't you? I honestly don't think that anyone-houndsmen or spot-and-stalker-should have to pay to hunt.

Secondly, I am not familiar with many guides that would allow me to pay them to bring my dogs to hunt their hogs on their land. I am, however, familiar with one or two (note the heavy sarcasm) that would cater to taking a guy who wants to spot and stalk for a hog.

Third, the cost to pay a guide every time we want to take our dogs out would soon bankrupt even the most affluent hunter. We hunt hogs much more than spot-and-stalkers do.

Fourth, public land is the most ideal place for dog hunters, because it is generally larger than any private property that one might get access to. This is important, Mike, because the larger the tract of land, the less likely the dogs will cross onto property that they shouldn't be on, thereby minimizing the inconvenience to folks such as yourself.

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Keep it? Hhhmmm, depends on how nice he is...I think a $500 tresspass fee would be fair. Houndsman gets his dog back, landowner is happy, and hopefully it wouldn't happen again.[/b]

Oh, so now you are talking about holding the dog for ransom, huh?

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Where I live there is a strict leash law. There are signs posted along the highway stating" dogs may be shot for harassing livestock" which you've stated.[/b]

Are we still talking about hunting hogs with dogs, or did I miss the leap to running cattle with hounds?

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Also, you need permission to follow wounded game onto private land, why would a dog be different.[/b]

Wrong. It's called the Right To Retrieve. I can enter private property, unarmed, to recover my dog(s). I may not take any game that my dog(s) caught.

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If it is true that the dog owner has the right to come onto private property and retrieve his dog, then as a landowner I would have to invoke the SSS rule. Problem solved.[/b]

Wrong again. If the landowner shot a dog that was merely on their property, their problems would just be starting.

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I tend to lean toward the older ways, where you take care of problems yourself.[/b]

What goes around, comes around.

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On a ranch up here in this county, we had tresspassers(not all you houndsmen are like this I know) running dogs and using the dogs as an excuse to go where ever they wanted. " Sorry, just looking for my lost dog" Then the same thing next week, and so on. We didn't see a hog on the property for two months, where we had a pretty good sucess rate earlier. I'm not knockin' the method, hell I love dogs. Public land just ain't the place.[/b]

Were these guys armed? If so, nail them for hunter trespass. If they aren't armed, they can retrieve their dogs. Above all, punish the man for breaking the law, not the dog for doing what he is bred for.

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As for the leash law, nowhere did I mention the word neighborhood[/b]

Nope, but nowhere in your scenario did you mention the fact that the dogs were harassing livestock. You merely indicated that they were on private property. Seeing as how this discussion is about running feral hogs with dogs, and considering that feral hogs are classified as big game and not livestock, the dogs cannot be shot. Your point about the leash law is irrelevant.

 

[RIFLEMAN]

ooja,

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Running hounds in Texas on public land is a little different than running them in CA. For those of us out of staters (I am assuming since this is a CA based site, this is about CA) you should know there is a total of about a dozen areas of public land that are big enough in the whole state of Cali to run hogs with dogs, and that is being generous.[/b]

Are you kidding me? Where are you from? There are a whole lot more than just a dozen public places large enough to run hogs with dogs in California. Sites deemed too small by DFG can't be hunted with dogs.

By the way, there is very little public land in Texas, and even less that can be hunted.

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Let me tell you what though, no houndsman should ever EVER get mad at me, he is the one ruining my hunt with his methods, not the other way around.[/b]

How do you figure? I want someone to logically detail how your hunt will inevitably go to hell just because there are hogdogs in the area.

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See I am totally ignorant to hunting with hounds (like many public land hunters I suspect).[/b]

This is all too true, unfortunately. It has been said that we fear or demogogue what we do not fully understand.

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I always figured, surrounded or not, it can get away. It can get away until the houndsman kills it, or it is tied up.[/b]

You figured correctly; the hog can get away at any point until killed or tied up.

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I have only 1 question: who decides if the boar is bayed?[/b]

The hog is bayed when it has stopped running, is typically facing its pursuers, and is being barked at by one or more dogs. If this situation happens, and no one is there to hear it, the hog is still bayed.

 

[RIFLEMAN]

wello,

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Hounding is not really hunting to me, I don't even hunt with dog's or ever met a houndsman.[/b]

Yet you still managed to form an opinion and make a statement about something you have no experience with and know very, very little about. Hmmm......

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...the houndsman just DID take something from EVERYONE else's net, just by being there...Once those dogs are in the woods, all chances for anyone else getting ANYTHING in the "traditional manner" are off. Everything runs the other way.  The houndsman has taken the rifle hiker/hunter's chances at getting anything through spot and stalk, and thrown it out the window...The way I see it, the houndsman is taking the chance of finding unmolested game from the other hunters. Is that right? [/b]

No, that is not correct. You have ample opportunity to take game with and without the benefit of the presence of dogs in the area. Describe the mechanism by which the dogs eliminate any chance you had at bagging a hog.

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That is what they were bred for long before us so called Americans ever decided to call spot and stalk a tradition. Think cave people had dog's, didn't they?[/b]

Exactly. Hunting mammals with dogs is among the oldest pastimes in existence, is somewhat responsible for the exploration of the American Frontier, and is solely responsible for the domestication of the dog.

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I don't classify it as hunting but they deserve being exercised in this manner. Does this mean we should be allowed to dynamite the lake for fish?[/b]

Are you kidding me? You actually think houndhunting is the same as using dynamite for fish? Seeing as how you don't hunt with dogs, and have neven even met a houndsman, what exactly do you base this ridiculous opinion on?

 

[BLASTMASTER]

I look at it like this:

#1 If the dogs are chasing the hog by me, it's not captured. Not much different than if I let some oblivious SOCAL deer hunter drive the game past me. It's mine if I want to take it.

#2 If the dogs have captured the hog, it belongs to the dogs (or the owners of the dogs I guess) and I would always let them have it, except if it got away from them, and then see scenario #1.

However, eventhough I believe it to be fair to use the movements of other hunters to your advantage (scenario #1, either dogs or oblivious hunters), it seems in the case of dogs, I would most likely choose not to shoot, just to avoid a bad situation. You see, I think that it sometimes may be difficult for the dogs, or the owners to tell if this was scenario #1 or #2, now that the hog is laying dead.