What would you do?

[Common Sense]

Originally posted by pig guide@Apr 6 2005, 08:21 AM
I just can't see using dogs anyway. That just goes from hunting to straight up killing. Think about it. You have done no actual hunting of your own ....at all. The dogs hunted the game, the person simply walsk up and kills it. No skills needed there.
Just my observation. I know this is going to piss off the dog runners.

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[/b]

Hey that sounds just like "internet" hunting. Maybe we need some new laws!!!

Hope everyone sees my sarcasism. I feel much the same as pig guide about hounds, but to each his own; and the last thing we need is another law.

 

[jawtightener]

now we're shoot'in the dogs...great. how about the moron that starts shooting his gun once their hunt is over? yeah, they needed to see if it was on, right! how many times have any of you had to deal with that crap goin' on while try'in to hunt on public land? let's solve that prevelant dominant problem before we demonize houndsman who hunt on public land. talk about ruining hunts...
(no, i don't want to hear from every arrow slinger out there, so save it)

 

[bayedsolid]

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Most hogs that are run by dogs-both silent and barking while on track-do not run throughout the countryside traversing miles and miles. Ask boarruner, bayedsolid, or other hog hunters about the length of an average hog race.[/b]

From the time the dogs first find the hog until the time I get there, the dogs usually haven't let the hog move more than 100 yards or so, and many times they don't get the chance to move more than a few feet. Most of the time when they first open up it is within 1/2 mile of where I am and I can hear when they open up. Sometimes it is farther away and after not seeing or hearing the dogs for 10-15 minutes, I'll use the tracking equiptment to find their direction. This will usually lead me to the top of a ridge where I can then hear them bayed up, in one spot, over the other side somewhere. Sure there are hogs that want nothing to do with staying put and give the dogs trouble keeping them bayed, but after breaking a couple of times they usually find a tight spot and stay put. Like I said before, if the hog is moving there is no barking, and when there is barking it is coming from a fixed point where the hog is bayed up. My dogs aren't as cold nosed as most hounds are and they don't cover as much ground on a track as most hounds would. That doesn't mean they don't get to cover a lot of land because I'll walk 6-10 miles on the average hunt and a whole lot more on others. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

First of all. Why are people so understanding of a single individual turning out his or her hounds on public land instead of private, thus disturbing every other hunter in the woods.[/b]

I don't know how many times this is going to need to be said before it sinks in but....How many hunters are being disturbed?????!!!! I run my dogs ever single week at least once and usually 2 or 3 times. I've never run into any of these "disturbed" hunters. I've been out 2 times this week and haven't seen a single other person. I believe it was Rifleman that made a great point about hunters disturbing the hikers on public land. Should ALL hunters now be banished to private lands only because a hiker or nature watcher was disturbed by your gunshot in the distance? How often do you as rifle hunters run into and ruin the trip of a bird watcher? Yet since that is a posibillity, I suppose you shouldn't be allowed to hunt public land anymore. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

In the Mid West where I lived for 12 years, many dogs went out and fewer came back. Just a fact. People don't liven up to others hounds destroying their hunt. It simply isn't a polite thing to do.[/b]

Yea, well this isn't the midwest. Things are much different in other parts of the country like hunting seasons, amount of public land, topography etc... If you want to start a new topic on Midwestern states and deer dogs...by all means, go ahead. Otherwise we should just keep this to the topic at hand. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I just can't see using dogs anyway. That just goes from hunting to straight up killing. [/b]

Why don't you run out and get some dogs and see just how easy it is. Dog men made their dogs through years of selective breeding, training, ect... and then enjoy the rewards and style of hunting that come of it. It's damn easy to drive your vehicle to town past all the pedestrians right? But you didn't have to start with a pile of raw metal and lump of rubber and turn it into a car did you? If you did and then the pedestrians bitched 'cause you are somehow cheating on the walk to town, how would you look at them? <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Think about it. You have done no actual hunting of your own ....at all. The dogs hunted the game, the person simply walsk up and kills it. No skills needed there.[/b]

Just like when most of of you Midwestener's throw 100's of pounds of corn on the ground and then sit in a tree and shoot whatever comes underneath. Is that "hunting or is it just shooting"???? I looked up hunt in the dictionary this is what I found----

To pursue (game) for food or sport.
To search through (an area) for prey: hunted the ridges.
To make use of (hounds, for example) in pursuing game.
To pursue intensively so as to capture or kill: hunted down the escaped convict.
To seek out; search for.
To drive out forcibly, especially by harassing; chase away:

Where is "Sitting on your butt in a tree stand over food or a trail"? The vast majority of deer hunting is done hunting Whitetails. This is because the vast majority of deer out there in the majority of all the states are Whitetails. The majority of Whitetail hunters sit in stands. I suppose since I don't hunt Whitetails I now have the right and obligation to condemn the way all these folks do it because it differs from me. Maybe I should just look past all the hours of scouting they have done, or the fact that the deer herd has doubled in their area from the brush clearing, food plots, and good game management they have applied to have a great deer herd, and just call it shooting and not hunting.

I suppose if you take the last 10 seconds of my hunts and throw out the lifetime of work that got me to those last 10 seconds then you can just call it shooting.

 

[boarhunter67]

I agree with bayedsolid. The hunts they show on tv where they sit in front of a food plot where the animals have been conditioned to come in and be fed isn't really the same as spot and stalking free range land. ...but to each his own. I have no problem with those type of hunts. I have no problem with hunting with hounds. I have no problem with someone shooting a live animal on public land when it's legal, period. To each his own.

 

[jawtightener]

bayed...love the bag o' corn tree stand comparison...laughed my ass off! your absolutly right.
all i hear is a bunch of sour grapes. lot's o' victims out there...

 

[crodog]

#1 Shoot the pig....

#2 Watch the action,and take pictures...

Then shoot the pig.

 

[Speckmisser]

This will be a long one. Can't be helped. And fair warning, I had some wine with dinner tonight, so I beg your pardon for any lack of coherence.

Nuff said there...

Interesting, how the hostility level raised suddenly. There was little there, except for Mike's SSS comments (which he apologized for quickly). But there seems to be some now... as though the gauntlet has been thrown.

But while a lot has been said, it's too much for me to even take issue with. Ya'll have at it on most.

But I have to take issue with only a couple of points. First of all, while this thought has surfaced in the discussion, I want to make clear that I, personally, do NOT advocate banning houndsmen from public land. That is not and has not been my stance. So I remove myself from that portion of the debate.

That said, THIS I agree with:

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Dog hunters would be just as legitimately bothered by your intervention in their endeavors (shooting a hog their dogs bayed/pursued), as you would be bothered by having your stalk interrupted by the intervention of someone who believes strongly in the non-consumptive enjoyment of wildlife (banging pots and pans near you).[/b]

I'm sure they would. And possibly, rightfully so.

But then, Josh went on and posted:

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In the case of the serious dog hunter, this is not a hobby, but a passion; it is our life and our identity in many ways. In no small part, the overwhelming advantage we have over spot-and-stalkers (given the extent of our success) is largely due to the overwhelming amount of time, effort, dedication, experience and money we exert.[/b]

Sorry, amigo, and this isn't a knock on dog hunters... but the fact of the matter is, you are far more successful because you are using a weapon that will go places no normal human would go, has senses that no human possesses, and has stamina that can be equalled only by a very few humans. Your overwhelming advantage is the use of dogs, and has so very little to do with your time, effort, dedication or anything else.

I'm sure you're passionate about the way you hunt, and I don't want to steal that thunder, but don't go giving yourself all the credit for what your dogs do. Running hounds doesn't make you superior hunters... it only increases your success rate. You're treading the ground of elitism, brother, and while I'm pretty sure it was an unconscious step, you ought to be aware of it.

I don't know or care how much money or time you exert, and I'm sure you feel the same about my expenditures and passion as a still-hunter. You'd do best to call it even, though, and forget that tack.

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You figured wrong, Phil.[/b]

Based on the sheer volume of your responses, I believe I figured quite aptly. You do have some significant opinions. Several other folks do as well, and this is why I pulled this thread out of the other discussion.

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Yes, remember that we all have an equal right to be there. I'll keep my dogs off the hog you are stalking if you keep your scope off the hog my dogs are pursuing. Sounds fair to me![/b]

By your own admission, you really don't have any way of knowing that you've kept your hounds off the hog I'm stalking. When your dogs strike, they don't care a whit if someone else is hunting those hogs. SO don't play that game. If your dogs run a hog, I'm likely to shoot it. If they bay, it's all yours.

If, as Bayedsolid suggests, they're seldom more than half a mile from you when they strike and usually bay within 100 yards of the strike, then it's a moot point to me. I won't shoot a bayed hog. But my admittedly limited experience suggests that this isn't always the case.

As to the duck hunting scenario... I can't recall. Do you duckhunt public land? If you do, you'd recognize the foolishness in the comparison. If you're so close that you can shoot the birds working someone else's spread, then you're too bloody close.

But that aside, it's generally easy to see if birds are working someone's blocks or calling. Especially with geese, there is very little grey area about what's going on. I'm happy to show a little respect to a qualified caller. But the picture changes when you have birds working an area. Maybe they're looking at the blocks a couple hundred yards away, and maybe they're looking to pitch in a quiet little pothole. If they're in range and you have a good shot, I have to say no one can be blamed for taking the shot. Personally, it's a case by case judgement. But just because a bird is circling doesn't mean he's decoyed.

Just like hearing dogs barking and seeing a hog come out of the brush. Maybe they'll bay, maybe they won't. Or maybe they're chasing an entirley different animal. If I've humped back into the backcountry, and a hog comes out... I'm taking it. From MY perspective, I've worked as hard or harder for that hog than any hound hunter.

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Wrong; it's over only if you want it to be. Your ability to take a hog is not threatened by dogs running a hog in the area. Depending on the area you are hunting in, your hunt may have a greater likelihood of success with the dogs there. Do you get to enjoy the serenity the area has to offer? No. Is it the ideal spot and stalk situation? No. But does the mere presence of hounds in the area make it less likely that you will bag a hog? No way![/b]

Completely ridiculous. First of all, my "greater likelihood of success" is due to my willingness to shoot a hog driven out by your hounds. Now according to you, the choice to do so is "rude and selfish"... so which is it? If I follow your logic and don't shoot, then I have ZERO likelihood of success.

No, if the hounds push out the hogs, then the hogs are either gone or I shoot them when the hounds push them out. I don't know which one the dogs are chasing, and I honestly don't care. So, if I understand what you're saying, I have about equal odds of being rude and selfish, or being perfectly OK. Tough spot for the poor slob who just happened to be in the same piece of woods as you and your dogs.

But if I choose not to shoot, then yes, my hunt is over. The hogs are not staying around. The area has been "ruined", and there is no point sitting tight. This is the big difference between hogs and deer, by the way. Deer will filter back in after the dogs are gone. Hogs might, but not during daylight. If you've disrupted their bedding area, odds are very good that they won't be back for quite some time. Now as a public land hunter, odds are good that I don't have a week or two to wait around. I'm there for a day or a weekend. If your dogs bust up the pigs, the area is, effectively finished.

Here's a big one...

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Why is that exactly? You are the one condoning shooting a hog out from under our dogs. We are not condoning releasing our dogs on a hog that we see you stalking or looking at through your scope.

You and most of the other participants seem to be forgetting something...Our presence is more easily known to you than your presence is to us. You can hear my dogs barking, Phil! I won't know that you are in the area unless I happen to pass by you or your vehicle on my way in. You clearly have the advantage in knowing that the houndsman is in the area.

If I saw your truck parked in an area, I would move on. Not only do I want my own space to hunt in peace (just as you do), but also because some spot-and-stalkers have a nasty habit of shooting at things they hear in the brush, and I don't want to be put in the position of encountering someone who just shot my dog.[/b]

First of all, I would never shoot a hog I saw someone else stalking. Likewise, if I actually saw you setting your dogs on a track and they jumped, I would not shoot the hog. But that's not been my experience.

I also said, as did a couple of other guys, if I KNOW you're running dogs in an area when I arrive, I keep on going. In most of the public land areas where I hunt, access is through select trailheads. When you go in, you can see that other hunters are in there...houndsmen or otherwise. If I see dogboxes, I don't stop. If I hear barking, I don't pack in. I go somewhere else.

And while you, individually, and probably a few other good houndsmen, would do the same if you found vehicles parked at the trailhead, there are far too many who don't seem to care. That has been my experience. Houndsmen come right in, right past parked vehicles and even through campsites, and put their dogs on trail. To be sure, the majority of times this has happened to me have been with deer hunters... but houndsmen are houndsmen, the same way hunters are hunters. The actions of a few corrupt perception of the actions of the many. If anything, this is the source of any hostility you've sensed to this point.

But the bottom line is, you don't know that your dogs aren't going to bust my hunt, unless you know I'm there. And if I don't know you're coming until you get there, then I can't very well avoid the hogs your dogs push up. Which brings us to the scenarios I posed.

Bayedsolid has several times brought up a valid point. How often does this actually happen in the field? And for my part, I can say not often since I came to CA. I can probably count the times that hog-doggers have either interrupted my hunt or caused me to go elsewhere on the fingers of my own hands. I probably have an equal number of incidents concerning deer dogs in CA. If I expand that to North and South Carolina, though, the number skyrockets. So while it may not be totally equitable, I have formed a very strong opinion based on multiple experiences. I believe that can be said for many of the other posters here as well.

I'll also say, Bayed, that there are probably many times that you never know that you've interrupted someone else's hunt. If it's public land, then they simply do the right thing and move on. As I've said and believe, you have as much right there as they do. No point making an issue of it. Just go somewhere else. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and if nothing happens, then nothing happens, right? What's to remark?

At the same time, I also recognize that houndsmen often hunt areas that stillhunters simply can't hunt. To me, that's the value of using hounds. An added benefit is that by hunting some of these areas, you don't run much risk of interrupting someone else's hunt.

My point is, though, that it really only takes once. That one time, on a ridge in the boondocks... and you have to make the choice.

I'm not condoning or condemning anything, by the way. Just posing hypothetical situations, and giving my own take on what I'd do. I find it interesting to see how other folks will react as well.

 

[Orygun]

Leash Laws. Most counties have them in addition to cities. Univesral rule is you must keep your animal under control at all times. This goes to the side thread about dogs entering onto private property. One would certainly hope the property owner would be understanding and return your dog. However, I know several sheep ranchers whose first reaction to any canine they see on their property that isn't theirs is to shoot first. They have lost lots of animals over the years to dogs, especially the friendly family pets that never ever would harm even a kitten. I know hounds trained to run pig, run pig and not livestock. But it's all the same to the sheep guys. Not only would they shoot their dog, they would then have you cited for tresspassing.

As far as Specks kick the beehive scenarios are concerned. It would depend on the situation. Let's I had to beg time off from work and Management at home to get out to say, Laguna Mountain. I drive many hours and battle traffic. I get there in the dark, hike in bust brush, get set up dep into the area. I then find fresh sign, I mean the sap is still oozing from the chewed up trees roots and flies are buzzing around the pig doody. I'm feeling real god about this setup and then the dogs show up and the gigs up for me. Sorry, but if the pig comes by it's mine.

Now if the arrive there and there are empty kennels or there are steaming piles of dog stuff at the parking lot or I even see guys with dogs heading in, I'd not be shooting in either case. I may ask to join up to chase the dogs to at least watch.

Now, if I was a mile or several from the road and this all was at the bottom of a poison oak choked near vertical ravine full of snakes and otehr icky things, it's a non issue. The hound guys can have the piggy I like pork, but I'll pay for the farm raised stuff at that point.

 

[manteca3]

I've never hunted with dogs, so I have to ask. If you shoot the pig in Scenario #1 and the dogs gather round the dead pig, then doesn't it look like you killed the bayed hog in any case?
For me, I would agree with some of the others in all cases. But I would probably just take some photos with my camera and enjoy the show. Just finding being that close to wild pigs when they meet their end is my fun. Draggin a pig through BLM brush is not.

 

[jawtightener]

teca3--no, your shot would be followed by barking hence the houndsman would know his dogs arrived after you had fired. if there is barking then a shot the houndsman is gonna be on your ass...
ory--i know lots of cattle ranchers that feel the same way about pooches as the land maggot herders. i know i've killed dogs chase'in cattle on my families place. collar or not suzie's lab will turn into a killer once packed up...

 

[boarhunter67]

Jawtightener,
I admit to only hunting with dogs for preditors. On those hunts the dogs bark the whole time. So what you are saying is that hog dogs, as a rule, don't bark until the hog is bayed or is that only one type of hog dog? Just curious.

 

[bayedsolid]

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Leash Laws. Most counties have them in addition to cities. Univesral rule is you must keep your animal under control at all times.[/b]

Most counties also have shooting ordinances too. You guys keep bluring the lines between what is acceptable in your front yard and what is acceptable out in the woods. There is a difference. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

One would certainly hope the property owner would be understanding and return your dog. However, I know several sheep ranchers whose first reaction to any canine they see on their property that isn't theirs is to shoot first.[/b]

If you could let me know what public land borders a sheep farmers ranch that shoots dogs, I will be sure to stay away and be safe. Otherwise we are argueing points in hypothetical land again. If people regularly shoot dogs on sight in Zimbabwe....how the hell does that affect me and why would it need to get brought up here? Better yet...how does the topic of a leash law that doesn't even exist, get brought into a thread about shooting a bayed hog? If you lose a dog, any rancher or landowner can shoot dogs and just not say anything about it. That is one of the risks of running dogs period. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Let's I had to beg time off from work and Management at home to get out to say, Laguna Mountain. I drive many hours and battle traffic. I get there in the dark, hike in bust brush, get set up dep into the area. I then find fresh sign, I mean the sap is still oozing from the chewed up trees roots and flies are buzzing around the pig doody. I'm feeling real god about this setup and then the dogs show up and the gigs up for me. Sorry, but if the pig comes by it's mine.[/b]

Again....another angry comment from another person about a situation that has never happened to them. You start out your quote with "Let's say I had to beg time off of work"....because it's so hard to ever get away. You had to "battle traffic" to get there. Things are getting so rough for you now....what else could go wrong??? You are feeling soooo good about the setup and then those damn dogs come and ruin your whole life. Has it happened to you? Have you had to "battle traffic" after "begging time off work", and then your hunt in these game filled, brushless public lands we have, ruined by the hoards of heartless dog runners?
Why is it so tough to stick with the facts around here instead of hanging guys on hypothetical B.S. that you haven't ever been part of? Orygun--This isn't just directed at you personally....it's just a trend I've seen and about had my fill of. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Now, if I was a mile or several from the road and this all was at the bottom of a poison oak choked near vertical ravine full of snakes and otehr icky things, it's a non issue. The hound guys can have the piggy I like pork, but I'll pay for the farm raised stuff at that point.[/b]

Well thank you so much for throwing me a bone here. You guys are so gracious to give me the hogs that you don't want. Well, where the hell do you think the hogs end up half the time. Right where nobody else can, or wants, to go. Wait.....I must have that wrong....by reading all these posts, that's not where the hogs are. They are all herded up on the open ridgetop surrounded by countless numbers of rifle hunters that deserve them more than me, when I come along and ruin things for everyone. Yea, that's it!! I'll be sure to walk my dogs on a leash from now on until I can crawl my way into the thickest, nastiest spot I can find....so I don't run the risk of affecting anybody.
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I've never hunted with dogs, so I have to ask. If you shoot the pig in Scenario #1 and the dogs gather round the dead pig, then doesn't it look like you killed the bayed hog in any case?[/b]

If you shoot the hog in scenario #1, the hog wasn't bayed up, it was moving. My dogs weren't even barking, and dogs don't bark at dead pigs. That's how I'd know. I would be walking along....hear a gunshot...and go see you standing by a hog while my dogs were either standing by my side, or up the ridge after another hog that was with the one you shot. If I ran hounds, as in Rifleman's case, then I would have heard my dogs barking on track as they moved across the hillside. If they were bayed up in one spot and then the shot came...I would then know that the rifle hunter shot the hog while it was standing still.

I got to tell you that I've just about had my fill of this thread so if some other hog dogger wants to take over for me, please, have at it. With all the negativity over situations that haven't even happened to most of you, I'm done with it. You guys can bitch about your non-existant leash laws, your blown hunts from dogs that chased the hog that you might have been stalking, and (I'm sure within 2 pages) your experience with child mauling hog dogs running rampant everywhere. In the mean time, I'll be out in the woods catching hogs while the rest of you sit here and come up with more BS to feed each other that might make you feel better for while you tell the story of getting skunked on public land. Have fun!

 

[jawtightener]

the ones i've hunted with only bark when on or at a pig. i'm sure people train their dogs differenlty, but for the most part the hog dog is gonna keep quiet until he's got someth'in. usually you'll release a couple of catch dogs to bay the hogs then keep a strike dog on a leash until you arrive at the pig. the catch dogs should'nt open their mounths until they are on a hog or have a hog cornered. it's more of a (the dog talking) "hey, idiot (the dogs owner) i've got the hog over here, get bruiser (the strike dog) in here to kick this pigs ass so we can control this thing and you can stick it!!" plus, as a side note, a lot of dog hog hunt'in is done at night near people's casas or what not, so you generally don't want your dogs to sound like an english fox hunt when goin' through the hills at one in the morn'in (i know it may not be legal, but it happens a lot).

 

[jawtightener]

bayed---if you don't chime in, the ignorant just stay ignorant. remember a lot of the banter is from individuals who have no idea what hunt'in hogs with dogs is even like. but yes, as i said yesterday there are a lot of victims out there...

 

[pig guide]

Wasn't meaning any disrespect to any and or all who were offended. My point was simply that as the same which started this all in the first place. A purely hypothetical question.
I DO NOT hunt over bait. I am dead set against it myself as a hunter and a guide. There was no comparrison between the states meant, nor implied. Behavior knows no boundaries and may be found, in the same shape and form in all areas of the world. It was meant as, others handle the situations differently, in other areas.
I myself, spend thousands of hours scouting, marking aerial photos, charting moon phases and paying particularly close attention to the changing food sources according to the changing seasons.
Everybody hunts the way the hunt. Bless them all. After all, we are all out to obtain the same goal. Self supplied food on the table. With all of the anti-hunting pressure from Kooks of all walks of life, we really should concentrate on supporting each other and strengthening our ranks, rather than in-fighting amongst ourselves.
More power to us and screw P.E.T.A

 

[Rimrock]

In Speckmisser's original post scenario #1 had the hounds "really close." Scenario #2 had the hog bayed.

It seems that we should ask ourselves why we are hunting in the first place. Is it for the satisfaction we get out of it, or is it simply to put something in the pot? When we answer that it seems that common courtesy and respect for a fellow sportsman make the answer to both scenarios simple.

 

[MikenSoCo]

I couldn't think of a better time than now to have had an experience on my private spot with someone else's hog dogs. This is a real life scenario just played out... I drove through and locked the second gate behind me in the pitch black of the early a.m. I thought I heard some barking far off but simply attributed it to a neighboring ranch. I had my bow in had ready for a longbeard or fat hog, whichever presented me the opportunity first. The property totals almost 900 acres, much more than a half mile square, which is the upper limit a dog will chase as stated somewhere here right??? Well it wasn't long before I spotted two large hogs well within the property boundaries across a ravine. I started down the hill and crossed the creek at bottom, turning left to catch a perfect wind dead in my face. What happened next was unbelievable.... i hear barking even closer now, the hogs still feeding away obliviously. Suddenly they throw their heads up and bolt down the hill to my left. The dogs(two pitts, and two hound types) crest the hill are right on the hogs in a matter of seconds. One hog bolts and the other stays spinning around and throwing it's head wildly. At 50 yds. I'm pissed and I yell loudly waiving my arms. The brindle colored pit turns toward me walking , then runs hard at me. I turn and run catching an oak branch and try to swing up into the tree. My legs are hanging down to far and he's on me. He sinks his teeth in and starts pulling on my leg just like I'm pulling on yours!

I owed you one speck.

 

[BLASTMASTER]

 

[Orygun]

I'm confused, aren't we putting out responses to hypothetical situations and not to just to ones ones we have experienced?? Did the thread shift on me. Anyway,Having issues with the Quote feature so bear with me


" If you could let me know what public land borders a sheep farmers ranch that shoots dogs, I will be sure to stay away and be safe. Otherwise we are arguing points in hypothetical land again. "

Believe it or not, we now have building hog populations in Oregon. They are nongame and can be hunted with pigs. SW Oregon is a major sheep area where pigs are now. There is also lot of open public range there. In that instance you could actually run into livestock(sheep for instance) on public land as well as inadvertantly have a dog end up on someone's ranch land.


" Have you had to "battle traffic" after "begging time off work", and then your hunt in these game filled, brushless public lands we have, ruined by the hoards of heartless dog runners? "

Um, most o fmy public land hunts were spent crawling through the pig tunnels to get to vantage spots where I could hopefully glass a pig like thing in chapparral. I used to watch videos of guys chasing pigs on brushless game-filled private lands. But I get your drift.

No heartless dog runner (your description), but plenty of others like ATCs way off the nearest road busting up a 2 hr stalk (Central Oregon), animal rights idiots (Chantry Flats in D-11), and assorted sundry interruptions whilst in the outback. My feelings in those situations would hypothetically be the same in a situation involving dogs. and if I'm interpreting things right, odds are if dogs that were pushing a pig and weren't barking, in that chapparral I'd be more than likely not to be aware of the dogs when I saw the pig?? If that's the case, I'd definately shoot. I was setting up a mindset that I would have.



"Orygun--This isn't just directed at you personally....it's just a trend I've seen and about had my fill of."


It's cool. I'm also glad we have the houndsman's perspective as it helps fill out discussion. I've run into dog guys periodically and haven't had problems but also have never had the scenarios as conjured up in the first post. Since we can't run dogs for cougar or bear anymore, guys gave up on the hounds or switch down the beagles for rabbits, but they got some damn good stories. Like when they treed a bear and shot on a then brand new golf course at a famous Oregon Beach Resort, left a bloody drag mark across the edgeof the green.

Speck's next non-controversial topic. "The right and wrong way to use cattle prods on nuns and orphans"

 

[wello]

I agree with plenty of the houndsman conservative rights based logic but I find a problem in complaining about people bringing hypothetics into here like Orygons last post as if they are brand new tangents. It is a prerequisate, as the scenarios put to us by Speck are hypothetics in the first place that put us right there in the action. Is a fullfilled fact by pressence alone. I don't need to have seen the tasty sap oozing from roots and heaps of good sign building me up for a big let down to create a hypothetic. I'm there, pig's there, now dog's there, and maybe houndsman. Whether someone is all hopped up with perfect plan taking place be it still hunter or houndsman doesn't make it anymore or less of a hypothetic situation. It is just there and fact at the point everyone meets up. So of course hypothetics (some sweeter then others) will be part of this debate. If it is stupid hypo thread topic then I wish houndsman would just have made that clear in first place..maybe entertainment is slow for all of us .
But regardless of valididty of threads shape and form, I don't care for the constant compare that this thread debate is about how we all are ignorant and basically need to be swayed into thinking this is a thread about houndsman cause or rights. Maybe houndsman need to be educated. Maybe still hunters need to be demystified. Or other way around... Who's decission is to determine who's mental build up or stealthy indian like tracking/hunting skill is sweeter or deserves more understanding?..At this point what with all that has went through here, I will still do same for both scenario. (not shoot)..That is just me...
Although I do have questions on a couple things.. Were the dogs barking at a running non bayed pig in first scenario?. Of course, as we wouldn't know there was dogs around if not. So I suppose that would make them not really trained pig dogs and looks like an open door to go ahead and shoot one. It seems clear from our new education that they do not bark until bayed. Sounds like a crock to to me .(at least for a 100 yards or so going on Bayedsolid's info)... And then based on both common knowledge of how untampered serene places (like ranches, farms, small mountanous type towns)are able to show off their wildlife in the open for all to see and Speck's last post I really question how much influence these hounds are on making them pigs so nocturnal and ingrained into the deep dark untreaded brushy woodwork?.. did I make that sound bleak enough ..jk...

Since this thread is only about pig hunting not hounding, I am concerned only about pig opportunity for all...