Winchester Trapper

[rke]

Hi again! I am in the market for a Winchwester Trapper, but I am undecided about which caliber to get. The guns main purpose will be for black bear and wild pig; although I may also use it for deer. I know that I DO NOT want the .357, but I am not sure between the 30-30, .44mag, .47lc. Your thoughts???

 

[gwhunter69]

A 30-30 has always served me well in the past. I am partial to the 30-30 myself...

 

[Speckmisser]

My personal preference would be the 30-30, given your plans for hunting with it.

I've said this over and over, and I know everyone doesn't buy in... but I just don't see much point for shooting pistol loads (.44mag, .45lc) in a rifle. If I wanted to shoot pistol rounds, then I'd get a pistol.

The 30-30 is going to give you better performance on game at ranges outside of 75 yards. The Trapper carbine isn't a long-range rifle by any means, but with a 150 or 170gr bullet and some practice on your part, you ought to be plenty deadly at 100 yards... or possibly a shade more. This new LeverEvolution ammo from Hornady is supposed to stretch a 30-30's range on out there... but I wouldn't count on turning that carbine into a 200-yard rifle.

 

[beastslayer]

30-30 is my vote.

I got (somebody gave me) a supposedly cheap Win 30-30 and I read in some forums that many were disappointed with it. But 1 1/2 inch group on 100 yards is good enough performance for me. I'll try Hornardy's LeverEvolution with the objective that at least that would give me confidence doing 100+ yards -- maybe, 150 yards or 200 yards max for allowance in error distance estimates. I am skeptical about their 300 yards effective range claim even if they hedge on bullet drop off.

I read an old salt -- in Outdoor Life, if I recall correctly -- saying if he only had one rifle for multiple assortment of games, it would be a 30-30. And that goes for me too.

 

[antlrcolectr]

Yes I agree with 30/30. Unless you just want a novelty rifle, pistol rounds in a rifle are only good for home defense and (trapping)

AC

 

[beastslayer]

A pistol round compounds the range limitation of a carbine.

 

[doccherry]

I've got a Trapper in 30/30, an older model, and I love that rifle. It doesn't seem to weigh anything at all. It actually feels like you're carrying a BB gun. It's got the crudest sights you can imagine but the darn thing will put neat holes in a pie plate at 100 yards offhand on a very regular basis. The pistol round model 94's are cute and nifty for reliving the past, but they have, in my opinion, absolutely no place in big game hunting. Javelina, sure, but javelina, weight-wise, are closer to cottontails than they are to feral pigs. With the 30/30 you can also take deer. In some of the thick California brush where the biggest bucks live, I believe the little Trapper may be a far better bet than any scoped rifle that shoots 1/2" groups at a million yards. Here in Hawaii, I know three guys who hunt the rugged forests of Laupahoehoe where I hunt when there is room for more meat in the freezer and two of them shoot Trappers in 30/30. I imagine they each take 15 or 20 hogs a year.

A lot of guys on this forum talk about 200 yard shots on hogs and I know they are telling the truth. I've taken 15 hogs in CA with a rifle and another 6 with a rifle here in Hawaii and the average range has been 40 yards. My longest shot ever was 100 yards, maybe a tad further. But the second longest shot was about 75 yards and all the others under 60 yards. If you practice with the Trapper in 30/30, you'll be deadly out to 100-125 yards shooting offhand and you'll get off that first shot much faster than a guy with a scope.

All that said, if you are really sold on the Winchester 94 for hunting pigs, consider buying a used one in .356 Winchester, if you can find one. I have one and that .356 caliber is unreal. It is entirely adequate for the largest hogs, any black bear that ever walked, and out to 150 yards or so, I wouldn't hesitate using it on elk. They are hard to find and will cost you about 500 bucks, but you'd have a real hog rifle. The barrel is 4" longer than the Trapper, but that's really no big deal.

One last question: How old are you? I'm 57 and shooting open sights is impossible now because my eyes won't focus on the front sight and rear sight simultaneously. For that reason, I installed a peep sight [Lyman folding tang sight] on my .356 model 94 and a side-mount scope on my Trapper and these systems work great.

Good luck regardless of what you decide.

 

[Speckmisser]

Great response, Doc!

I didn't mention it (because I have before), but my love of the 30-30 comes from personal experience with my own Trapper carbine (saddle-ring and all). It was my first big-game rifle, and it has been responsible for more deer in my freezer than any other gun I own.

The quick handling that Doc speaks of proved itself for me when I doubled on whitetails one afternoon back in NC. Caught me flatfooted on the edge of a field, first shot at 65 yards, the second deer was out to about 100 when I tagged him. I'm not saying it's impossible, but that would have been a nifty trick with a bolt-action.

I've only had one chance at a pig with that rifle, and I missed... the only time that gun ever missed an animal... so I can't say from first hand experience how it performs on hogs. But I've seen what it does to deer, and there are plenty of guys who do kill hogs with it.

Likewise, to what Doc said, the sights on my 94 Trapper are pretty primitive. After years as a truck gun, they don't even stay in place anymore. Probably gonna replace them with Ghost Rings or a Lyman one of these days.

Anyway, it's a great rifle, and chambered in 30-30, you won't be sorry (unless you're expecting .300 mag performance).

 

[doccherry]

"the only time that gun ever missed an animal... "

It wasn't the gun that missed the animal.

Sorry, Speck, couldn't help myself!!!

 

[doccherry]

Speckmisser:

I have the same rifle you do, the old Trapper with the saddle ring and old-fashioned safety and rear sight system that wiggles this way and that with the slightest pressure. I, too, love that rifle and would never part with it. I think with Ghost Rings it would an awesome close-in tool for hogs and deer. When I think back on all the deer [and a few hogs] that I have jumped almost within handshake distance but could not get my crosshairs on before they disappeared into the brush, I wonder if, overall, there would have been more meat in the freezer if I left the scoped bolt-actions in the gunsafe and carried nothing but the Trapper. Plus, that little Trapper looks and feels so cool!! Man, what a neat little rifle!!

I also think that the 30/30 is a much maligned cartridge and is capable of far more than most hunters realize. That statement should spark a debate, which I welcome, because I'm neither fishing nor hunting today and am getting bored.

Come on guys, attack me!!! The 30/30 rules!!!! 30/30 for cape buffalo!!! Did I mention grizzlies? And, of course, there are lions and tigers and elephant and ....

 

[beastslayer]

That's a good one doc!

Recall the guy shooting beside me in the range with the same Win 30-30 I have. He keeps on critizing the rifle when the problem actually is him. He was squeezing the gun instead of just pulling the trigger and had a flinch as wide as the sea. But I kept my mouth shut. I am keeping my golfer's etiquette -- no advice to fellow golfer unless asked.

 

[Speckmisser]

yeah, I had that one coming... should have said, "The only time I ever missed an animal with that gun."

The poor workman blames his tools... yeah yeah yeah..

I do like the way it looks. Folks used to think it was a pea shooter, 'til I touched it off.

And the balance and feel... hard to beat. I've handled a lot of fine, very high-end rifles in my lifetime, and that $100 Winchester feels as perfect coming to shoulder as any of them.

 

[beastslayer]

Doc - There are no takers. Let's have a fan club then with you, Speck and myself.

 

[Neil San Diego]

One other reason to get the 30-30 over pistol rounds is that the Winny 94 was made for rifle length cartridges. The 94 versions that chamber pistol cartridges are supposed to be a little suspect. The Winchester 92 was made for the pistol length cartridges. Sorta like the difference between the Marlin 336 (for rifle rounds) and the Marlin 94 (for pistol rounds). The cowboy action shooters have uncomplimentary things to say about the Winny 94 for CAS but love the 92, and they shoot ALOT of pistol rounds in a year. FYI.

Neil

 

[doccherry]

The Winchester 94 Trapper reminds me of a perfectly balanced 28 gauge over/under or side by side, or maybe even a fine 3 weight flyrod. It just becomes part of you and using it is automatic and effortless. I'm not sure where my body ends and the Win 94 begins, it's become so much a part of me. And what other rifle says "America" so loud and clear as the Winchester 94? When I carry it I go back [in my mind, at least] to a time when a man could get through life by working hard and telling the truth and a well-placed shot meant food on the table and a botched shot meant an empty belly. I become John Wayne and there are no fences and political correctness isn't even a concept and I am at the top of the food chain, a skilled and determined predator out hunting for his meal.

It all sounds corny, I imagine, but the main reason I hunt is to get back into the food chain, back into the "Real World" as it was before lawyers and liars and lunatics took over the world.

 

[spectr17]

Last 30-30 slug I dug out of a wtail from 150 yards lasered, the bullet barely touched meat. It was right under the hide. Winchester 150 grain SP if I remember right.

200 yard kill shots? I gotta see that to beleive it. What's the hold over? 20 feet?

I once emptied my MArlin 30-30 at a broadside doe when I was a kid. I walked the rounds in at 165 yards and never hit her. I later went back when laser rangefinders came out to see how far it really was. I fell for those tales of 150+ yard 30-30 kill shots. Personally, I've never seen it done but many claim it so. I have watched many try.

 

[doccherry]

The ballistics for a Trapper with a 16" barrel are a bit worse than for a 20" carbine, but basically, a 150 grain flat nose bullet sighted in at 100 yards will drop about 9 inches at 200 yards, assuming a muzzle velocity of 2250 fps. That's no big deal and easy to deal with under hunting conditions. But the real problem with shooting the Trapper beyond 100 yards is that the crude front sight completely covers the deer [or hog] at 200 yards. There is no way a hunter can sight in on a hog at 200 yards with the Trapper and tell whether the shot will hit the lungs or the gut or the butt. The front sight is just too massive and covers too much critter. I can't imagine an ethical hunter shooting at game with a Trapper or any other crudely sighted rifle at over 100 yards. I am comfortable with mine under hunting conditions out to about 75 yards with open sights. With the side-mounted scope, I'm comfortable out to about 125 yards. I know for an absolute, first-hand fact that the Trapper in 30/30, handloaded with Barnes X Bullets [I handload all my cartridges], will pass all the way through a large hog's lungs and land up against the inside of the far hide, if the shot is at 75 yards or less.

If there are any 30/30 fans out there who handload, I strongly suggest looking at the flat-nose Barnes X Bullet specifically designed for lever action rifles. They hold together and penetrate very well. I have no first hand knowledge whatsoever regarding the effectiveness of factory soft nose 30/30 bullets game.

My only mention of longer shots was in reference to my Model 94 in .356 Winchester. That rifle has a fine bead ivory front sight and a Lyman folding tang rear sight. With a rest, I can hit a beer can at 100 yards with almost every shot and pretty much center punch a pie-plate at 150 yards. I can almost guarantee you a complete pass-thru on deer or even hogs with the .356 if you hit the ribs right behind the shoulder at a range of 150 yards. Again, I don't know about factory ammo but a stout bullet handloaded to max pressures will pass completely through a hog.

I certainly understand that mention of a 20 foot holdover at 200 yards was in jest, but some hunters actually believe the 30/30 trajectory resembles a rainbow, but it doesn't. You just need to keep your shots in close. So, in essence, the hunter is faced with choosing between a rifle that is slower to get on target at close range [scoped bolt action] but is great at ranges beyond 100 yards or a rifle that is quick to get on target at close range but basically sucks at ranges much over 100 yards. In my opinion, there are hunting habitats where the open sighted Model 94 really shines and other habitats [Tejon comes to mind] where the Model 94 is just one notch above a boomerang.

Here in Hawaii, I am the only hunter I know of who routinely uses a scoped rifle in the jungles and forests. Everyone else I've ever met uses open-sighted lever actions or shotguns shooting slugs.

To each his or her own.

 

[beastslayer]

Doc - Thanks for the info. So there's the fine print from Hornady's claim of 300 yards on LeverEvolution. The bullet drop claim is just 12.1 inches and about 50% drop-off in energy and velocity. It's from a 24-inch barrel gun.

 

[New Pig Hunter]

here's an interesting article by Paco Kelly.....

45 (long) Colt in Leveraction Rifles

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm


Enjoy,

Carl

p.s. here's a whole pile of lever gun articles:
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/Default.htm

 

[Cabowhntr]

Very interesting thread guys...This is one for the books. Speck & Buc .. You guys should do a seminar on the Mod 94. I ussually use a 270 Ruger for Boar, But after reading this,...I think I'll take the 30-30 out next time. Thanks guys for all the great info...